Perhaps someone can help me to understand this. For the past several months, it seems that one after one, threads keep popping up claiming the same silly, non-provable nonsense about Freemasonry. One guy starts it, makes a BUNCH of outlandish claims, gets mad, posts some more garbage (maybe a scan from a book or a link to a pathetic anti-Masonic site that has not credibility whatsoever) then...he gradually fades away.

ONLY to be replaced (sometimes immediately) with yet ANOTHER troll, making the SAME, worn-out, pathetic, unbelievable claims and the whole thing starts over again.

Is it because there's so much attainable, nonsensical garbage out there on the web for these guys to easily get without having to go to the trouble of actually doing any legitimate research (since they obviously do not know how to in the first place)...or are they actually having covert meetings, and working "in shifts" so to speak?

It seems to me we have a troll conspiracy on our hands. Is there HONESTLY not a REAL conspiracy out there that we could discuss?

I'd be glad to start some discussion about it, but I'm no expert in that field, although I'm greatly interested in it. My area of expertise is Freemasonry, but this really isn't a FREEMASONIC forum....it's just been hi-jacked by trolls to post silly nonsense and lies about the organization when they know NOTHING about it.

I won't call any specific names, but will say this. If you have started a thread or contributed to an existing thread any message that makes claims like "low-ranking Freemasons don't know the truth" "only the elite, higher-ups know" "it's secretly Devil-worship" "Your Worshipful Master only tells you what the Lodge wants you to know" "Freemasonry = brainwashing" etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam...then guess what!

I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU!

Maybe, just maybe, because they know you'll come and defend it violently, imo this is Rant forum material.

Do have a nice day

oh and imo, no conspiracy, such is the net, when someone knows how to push your buttons they can and will.

[edit on 2-6-2005 by Lysergic]

Originally posted by senrak
I won't call any specific names, but will say this. If you have started a thread or contributed to an existing thread any message that makes claims like "low-ranking Freemasons don't know the truth" "only the elite, higher-ups know" "it's secretly Devil-worship" "Your Worshipful Master only tells you what the Lodge wants you to know" "Freemasonry = brainwashing" etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam...then guess what!

I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU!

Did the elite, higher-ups make you post this? Are you trying to cover that masons are a Fraternal Order that worships rocks?

Oh, I know....deny all you like. I did my homework. Mason=someone that works with stone. THERE! I have uncovered the secret. Muhahahahaha!



Ok, sorry. I just don't know why you take them so seriously.

Originally posted by Lysergic
Maybe, just maybe, because they know you'll come and defend it violently,

Maybe, just maybe! Funny how some people simply don't LIKE being lied about and tend to want to defend themselves isn't it?

imo this is Rant forum material.

Opinions are like . . . well, you know!

Do have a nice day

Hmm. Now am I OBLIGATED to have a nice day or can I have a crappy day if I really WANT to? Just curious.

oh and imo, no conspiracy, such is the net, when someone knows how to push your buttons they can and will.

LOL! Wish they knew how to push MY buttons. Pretty much no matter WHAT I post in response to the abovementioned trolls, I'm laughing my ass off! I find them TERRIBLY amusing and a refreshing break from an otherwise stressful day.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
Ok, sorry. I just don't know why you take them so seriously.

Aw c'mon ZZZ,

I DON'T take them seriously. The above post was VERY tongue-in-cheek. I'm making fun of how SERIOUSLY they take themselves. They present this crap that they've blatantly stolen from public websites and are presenting it like it's SOME BIG SECRET that ONLY THEY know. It's hilarious, don't you think?

What's so sad about it is, if you look at the various threads on this particular forum, there'd be practically NONE left if you took the anti-Masonic ones away.

My whole point is...is there not a REAL conspiracy to discuss without vomiting up this same old crap?

Apparently not for our resident trolls anyway....

If you feed them they'll come back for more, fairly simple really just trying to help ya out.


the day is what you make it

btw my imo is > all

so it is written, and so it shall be done maybe some Half-life 2 could help you out with TEHRAGE!!!!

(desperately looks for people to sucker into playing hl2 with him)

I don't follow freemasonry too much, but I have noticed a few really ridiculous claims about masons. I think it just comes down to misinformation and gullibility. For example, I watched the David Icke Illuminati lectures, and he claims that masons are part of some massive global conspiracy to rule the world

Maybe it's because I'm a little more sensitive to this issue, but I've noticed a bunch of religious threads along the same sorts of lines, where people post a bunch of misinformation that, like some of this masonic stuff, 5 minutes of research will show you it is false. I think it's no conspiracy, just a case of people failing to do their research, and believing everything that anyone tells them.

Originally posted by Zed
Mason=someone that works with stone. THERE! I have uncovered the secret. Muhahahahaha!

I read that most of the Guys in the Masonic Lodges can't lay stone, bricks or even cinder blocks. Most of them are in the insurance business. Now there is a conspiracy.

Originally posted by Lysergic
If you feed them they'll come back for more, fairly simple really just trying to help ya out.

This is not true, actually. Even when we, as Freemasons, do ignore their claims, they still keep posting the same crap! Only then they do it without resistance. It has been masonic policy, for a long time, to simply ignore the trolls and anti-masons and let them say what they will. The only thing that has achieved is an over-abundance of misinformation on the web and in libraries, and a gullible population who has only anti-masonic trolls to tell them what Freemasonry is supposedly about.

We are now coming out and fighting back in order to make sure that those people who are 'on the fence', so to speak, have a real, truthful source to read that debunks the silly claims that the trolls make. After they read BOTH SIDES of the issue (previously there was only one side), then they can make their mind up for themselves.

This has been highly successful, and we have had MANY people here on ATS thank us for helping them to see the truth about Freemasonry, whereas they once believed all the nonsense. This makes our work here VERY worthwhile.

Originally posted by Lysergic
If you feed them they'll come back for more, fairly simple really just trying to help ya out.

Yeah. I know... I know...

Thing is... I just can't help it. I just can't leave The Lie sitting there on my screen, looking at me.

It's saying " ha ha... the more you look at me the more true I'm going to become and the WHOLE WORLD IS GOING TO BE READING ME AND BELIEVING IT... AAAAAAAARGH..."

But I'm getting better... promise.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
This has been highly successful, and we have had MANY people here on ATS thank us for helping them to see the truth about Freemasonry, whereas they once believed all the nonsense. This makes our work here VERY worthwhile.

Of those you hear from, what about those that are turned off by Masons yelling TROLL, LIAR. Is this constructive? I don't think so. It's gotten so I don't read a post by some that don't include at least one of those, if not both, words.

Maybe you're winning the battles but losing the war.

Case in point, if this is the goal:

Originally posted by sebatwerk
We are now coming out and fighting back in order to make sure that those people who are 'on the fence', so to speak, have a real, truthful source to read that debunks the silly claims that the trolls make. After they read BOTH SIDES of the issue (previously there was only one side), then they can make their mind up for themselves.

Then posts like this do NO good:

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by twitchy
In other words, you can't. I present my information, now debunk it with something other than "because I said so".

What's the point twitch? You're absolutely convinced that the garbage you're spreading is true. So much so that you're blind and cannot and will not see the truth. Why should we waste valuable time on the likes of you?

It's seen as antagonistic and counter productive, adds nothing to the point being made. At least point to WHAT page in the thread that your point was made. Also correcting spelling. Personally, I find that childish. I can spell very well, my typing on the other hand is terrible.

Why am I doing this? Because I see a growing trend here that doesn't aid Masonry's cause. If that is your goal, I hope I've helped.

senrak
As they are to you, so you are to them.

You insult their inteligence and label them as you see fit, they do the same.

They probably think y'all are the ones working in shifts and dragging out the 'same tired' defenses.

To you, they're the trolls, but to them, you fill that role. You and your gang roll up on every related thread and unload with full barrage. They perceive this as stonewalling, you perceive it as defense of your values. They see obfuscation, so do you, you see unrelenting ignorance, and they of course accuse you and your brothers of it daily.

So don't pretend for a minute you're any different than your enemies. Y'all are inseperable.

I think WO said it better than I did.

A question, what do you get from 2 closed minds?

Answer

Bet there's a lot of people here feeling that.

I'm talking BOTH sides.

Originally posted by intrepid
Of those you hear from, what about those that are turned off by Masons yelling TROLL, LIAR. Is this constructive?

Intrepid, it may not be necessarily constructive and perhaps is a bit harsh, but if someone says "Low-ranking Freemasons are kept in the dark as to the *real* secrets of Freemasonry...and only the *high-ranking* Masons know the *real* secrets..." (which has been said over and over) quite frankly that's a lie.

What should one call someone who lies?

OK I guess I have few things to say here.

One, I too think it's time to tone down the namecalling/shouting matches on BOTH sides. I understand how things can get heated when you feel you have been wronged. The "secret society" I'm going to be joining is currently has a lawsuit going over a group that claims they have "blood rituals using children, eating flesh, the sacrifice of a child, the killing and torture of others and uninhibited 'love' without restraint." Things like that do tend to get your blood pumping because they are basically saying you do it. Now I don't mind if someone (or a group of someones) is uncomfortable with, or dislikes, or even hates me, or my religion if the reason of their hate is true.

What this forum really needs is some two way discussions... You have to talk to people not at them. From time to time the "other" side is going to make a good point, Just don't ignore it, recognize it, offer a counter point, or explain yourself better. That will make both sides at least feel that their contribution was noted and understood. And help the the undecideds form an opinion.



Now on to the "Troll" conspiracy...

One of the thing I wonder about is where some of this stuff comes from. many years ago I was doing some checking on a quote that had 2 typos in it. I must of found hundreds and hundreds of pages online with the same typos. Now my question what Anti-mason dark overlord put this quote out there in the first place?

BTW.. I don't remember what quote it was, that was a few computers ago and must of gotten lost in the shuffle.

Originally posted by senrak
What should one call someone who lies?

Do you know for afact they are lying? Lying implies they know damn well nobody is kept in the dark... I'd wager most of the folks posting that rightly or wrongly, believe it. So you can call them mistaken. The only thing you can do is keep offering evidence contrary to their position. Hell set up a cut and paste text file to save you some time.

Just to add my two cents worth.

For too long a period of time Freemasons refused to respond to the mis-information sut forward by outsiders. This did not stop lies being spoken about us, both as an orginisation and as individuals.

While it is very difficult to sit and hear (or read) slanderous comments about the orginisation or about a brother mason and try and resond in a courtious mannor, most of us do. I can well understand those who will be less than polite considering some the posts I have read.

Those to whom you seem to refer; generly only respond abruptly when they have been either, found it necessary to supply information for the "gazillianth" time or resond to rudness. Even the best individual can get irritated, when confrunted with the same arguments over and over.

There have been several men who have decided, after reading the posts and following the links, elected to join the Lodge. By continuing our presence here it has been possable to show the truth about Freemasonry to people who are willing to see the truth. That is a good indication that the masons who post here are having a positive effect

I personally agree with Cug, in calling for a two way discussion with a minimum of name calling. (none would be nice but I doubt if it is possable)

Every question I have ever been asked about freemasonry I've been able to answer truthfully without breaking my oaths. With the exception of the spacifics of the rituals, the passes, grips, and what is actually said in lodge.

As the rituals have been published, they can be read by anyone. But I have swarn not to reveal the spacifics, and will therefore not. As for what is said in lodge, that falls in the same catagory as "it is nobodies business what you paid for you electric bill". Just our private business.

With respect to the "troll" conspiracy. Why after years and years of answering the same accusations with the truth and facts are the same lies still being published?

In response to the thread title....

I think that the people who make bogus claims regarding masonry and have never spoke to or known a mason are trolls. The ones who say whatever they think about masons just because they looked at one web page that may or may not be credible are trolls.

On the other hand there are people who question masonic beliefs and rituals with ample research regarding their practises. They know and speak to masons regularly, but masonry is not for them. Then they try and express their beliefs through ATS, but get labelled a troll. I do have a problem with this. But if masonry is not for you then why continue caring about it??

Masons are very strong minded and very adamant about their beliefs. I for one would get upset if someone was telling me that my religion was the wrong one, or that I will go to hell just for my beliefs.

I am not trying to say not to question masons.... you SHOULD question them as you will learn more from doing just that.

In my own experiences masons are the nicest people. The ones I know once you actually sit down and talk with them about constructive ideas, you realize just how intelligent and kind they really are.

If you do nothing but ridicule their fraternal ideologies until the point of crushing their spirits then you are a very ignorant and weak person.... but if you have an open mind and just take the time to ACTUALLY RESEARCH MASONRY you will find that it might be the right thing for you!

Ok, you guys are right. Sometimes the defense goes a little overboard. However, everyone (speaking for myself) and I do mean EVERYONE that comes onto this board looking for answers or general information is treated with the utmost respect and courtesy. I mean hell, why are we here?

Intrepid, you make a good point as usual. But think about this: How many posts are shot back and forth before someone drops the "T" bomb? ( ) Seriously. In most cases, it is only after a certain poster has shown himself to actually be a troll for any of us to say he is. It's not common for someone to come here and immediately be labeled a troll or instigator. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. There are some, however, that simply choose to keep on, even after what they have presented has been shown to be false, or at least an opinion or viewpoint has been presented that should make someone think about things a little more, and stimulate discussion.

Take the recent hierarchy argument for example. I personally, along with Seb, spent the better part of two or three days' posting arguing with twitchy. We both spent alot of time explaining the system, how it works, the purpose it serves, and why the idea that he was suggesting simply isn't true. He sticks to his guns (which is admirable in itself). But, on the flip side of that, when we present ideas and information in an attempt to get him to rationally discuss what he is alledging, what does he do? Changes the subject. . Then what? He goes off on a tangent, about oaths and loyalty to Zion (wherever THAT came from), and other such... well, other ideas. Then, lo and behold, someone asks him "where did you get that information?" A reasonable question no? So what does he do? He posts a page from a monitor that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand and says (and I quote) "From the same place I got this". OK smart guy, if it's from the same source, why can't you post the relevant portion? I don't mean to pick on twitchy, and these are rhetorical questions, I'm just trying to make a point. This kind of thing is seen all to often in this forum.

It's not that anyone who disagrees with me, or Seb, Senrak, or anyone else is automatically labeled a troll. It's not that those who have a problem with Freemasonry are labeled trolls. But you can't just say "Nyah nyah! All Masons are evil and you're all going to hell!" and let that be the end of it. Also, if a person expects to be taken seriously, he or she must not be a hypocrite and expect everyone else to be open minded, while carrying on from a viewpoint so narrow that they can't even see the obvious flaws in their own argument.

I don't always do the best job, but I try really hard to keep my cool. When and if I am shown to be wrong, or if I get out of line, I will be the first to stand up and say so. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong or apologizing for something I say that is hurtful or uncalled for. Everyone here who knows me knows this. But there are times when someone just carries on so long or is so blatantly ignorant you just have to let 'em have it, warning or no warning. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. But those of you here that know me know that I can honestly say that I keep it pretty level.

The trolls show themselves to be just that, and I only call 'em how I see 'em, after giving them ample opportunity to show me I'm wrong.



[edit on 6/2/05 by The Axeman]