How does one join the Illuminati

A month later, it seems the instructions for joining are no clearer, and horror of horrors, look what Google delivers:

'Your search - "illuminati application form" - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.'



I am going to contact the Illuminati Grand Councillors (Eurasian region) to have this clumsy administrative foul-up repaired.

LMFAO!! MaskedAvatar

IF the illuminati exists, its not a matter of walking up to them and saying "hey, can i join?"...they come looking for you

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Assuming that the Illuminati exists, exactly HOW do YOU know that this is the Illuminati's approach?

By learning the mistakes of the Bavarian Illuminati and ensure that it will never happen again.

What was the causes of the downfall of the Bavarian Illuminati? Too many men getting involved in secrecy, ambitious goals of egotistical men, the inability of Weishaupt to rein in differences and keep main goals in focus, and an accidental discovery of secret letters by a careless courier killed by lightning that led to the arrests of the Illuminated members by the Bavarian government.

Weishaupt lived on until his death in 1811 (some sources placed his death in 1830), largely forgotten after the disbanding of the Bavarian Illuminati. To this day, the very idea of an Illuminated person suggested a person bearing secret plans and goals for mankind, basing on Weishaupt's idea of radical rationalism which evolved into some form of a political philosophy that would later became known as international communism.

Men of higher learning and/or wealth can provide themselves a position of influence in the society, rather by personal merit, public/military service, academic position, aristocracy or wealth alone. It doesn't matter whether he joins Freemasonry or any other secret society, just as long as he seeks out like-minded individuals who share his dreams and goals of mankind on a larger scale. OR he could attract like-minded men curious of his learned positions and placement in the society. This was true for many men in Weishaupt's era in the continental Europe, inspired by the Enlightenment, rationalism, science and a belief in a new age of mankind. Today, it's still true for the elitist people in the world.

Originally posted by sebatwerkWhat makes you so sure of this? Surely someone as intelligent as yourself wouldn't blindly believe in something like this, right? You must have seen something, some kind of evidence, that makes you so positive that this is truly going on...?

Call me a conspiracy theorist. Call me a realist. Call me a fool. I don't care what you think. I'm a student of human nature and I only recognize this: people will do anything for themselves, just as long as the end justifies the means. I look at the histories of the world, the historical links and patterns interwoven in politics and religions of civilizations by men and women, rich and poor, powerful and powerless, life and death, ideas and nightmares. The Bavarian Illuminati was the culmination of centuries long power struggle between the Platonic idealists (Man is superior over mankind or deities) and the religious faithful, be it Catholic, Islamic, Protestant, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, etc. (God or the Creator is above all). It bears in mind the biblical story of Jacob wrestling with the Angel representing God, a parable of man's personal struggle and misgivings about himself and his Creator.

At that point of the late 18th century, it is recognized that Man has finally broke free of religious/theological chains of the deistic beliefs and embraced scientific rationalism as the new faith of mankind. Even though it was disbanded, the Bavarian Illuminati have led the way and the world have never been the same since.

Originally posted by sebatwerkEVERY person, regardless of how rish or powerful he is, is restricted by the will and desire of the people he governs. Quit your conspiracy theory B.S. and start to realize that nobody can take from you what you are not willing to give them. Also, realize that even people in positions of power have a sense of their own ambition, and they too think that they are doing what is best for everyone. Nobody, even those in a position of power, is purely evil.

How do you know that no one is purely evil? Human nature does not discriminate. Ambitious people are still prone to the unpredictable or uncertain matters that which they have no 100% control of 'em. Smart, educated people in very high levels of power or wealth are generally risk-averse and keep their own ambitions in check, as long as they keep the bigger goals in focus with like-minded people and all must be in 100% agreement with such goals. This is how the elite get together annually (or few times a year) and discuss at a posh, highly secured conference (i.e.: the Bilderberg Group, the Club of Rome, etc). It is not about the secrecy of such private conferences, it is the nature of secrecy among the elite of the world that does not wish or intend to share with the rest of the masses on Earth.

[edit on 6/29/2005 by the_oleneo]

i dont think one joins them...i think you are born into a rich powerful family, or a powerful occult family...and you just become one of them...

Originally posted by the_oleneo

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Assuming that the Illuminati exists, exactly HOW do YOU know that this is the Illuminati's approach?

By learning the mistakes of the Bavarian Illuminati and ensure that it will never happen again.

But you don't even have evidence of the Illuminati's existence! how can you know what their "approach" would be when you don't even know they exist? Admit that all you have done is ASSUMED.

Call me a conspiracy theorist. Call me a realist. Call me a fool. I don't care what you think. I'm a student of human nature and I only recognize this: people will do anything for themselves, just as long as the end justifies the means.

I'd call you a person who believes what he wants to believe, and makes assumptions based on nothing. The fact that people will do anything for themselves does not prove, doesn't even demonstrate the existence of any such group like the Illuminati. Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's true.

Conspiracy theorists have the bad habit of assuming that whatever they can conjur up in their imagination, as long as it's even slightly POSSIBLE, then it's likely. This approach is completely rooted in fantasy, and not reality, reason or logic.

The Bavarian Illuminati was the culmination of centuries long power struggle between the Platonic idealists and the religious faithful... Even though it was disbanded, the Bavarian Illuminati have led the way and the world have never been the same since.

The Bavartian Illuminati was neither secret nor powerful. They were terrible at maintaining an organization, much less internal unity. They were not disbanded, they "broke up" because of internal bickering among senior members. They accomplished none of their goals. They were neither influential nor powerful, their political effect and contributions were insignificant at best. And you're trying to tell me that they changed the world?

How do you know that no one is purely evil?

Because I have studied basic psychology. Any psychologist or mental philosopher can tell you that sane people must justify misdeeds to themselves. Nobody steals, kills or hurts without justifying it and making it OK to themselves. Even people in power must justify their actions to themselves, as well as their constituents.

This is my last post for tonight.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
But you don't even have evidence of the Illuminati's existence! how can you know what their "approach" would be when you don't even know they exist? Admit that all you have done is ASSUMED.

I just read history of the Illuminati from different sources and different perspectives. Some are more suggestive than the others, some are skeptical based on assumed or lacking informations. There are few things I founded to be highly skeptical and too far-fetched: reptilian aliens ruling the world, according to Icke.

Originally posted by sebatwerkI'd call you a person who believes what he wants to believe, and makes assumptions based on nothing. The fact that people will do anything for themselves does not prove, doesn't even demonstrate the existence of any such group like the Illuminati. Just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's true.

Now, now, you're just slamming people like me for having a different view/knowledge than yours, even such views you assumed not to be true because you don't know any better? Hmph.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Conspiracy theorists have the bad habit of assuming that whatever they can conjur up in their imagination, as long as it's even slightly POSSIBLE, then it's likely. This approach is completely rooted in fantasy, and not reality, reason or logic.

Are robots fantasy nowaday? Less than a hundred years ago, robots were considered fantasy, a stuff of science fiction and people wrote stories about robots for years. Now, robots are becoming a science fact and the reality of the future. Where did the idea of "robot" came from? Think about that. Conspiracy theorists can come up with something based on what they'd researched on, some are very good at what they do at, some do not. It's no different than what Wall Street speculators can come up with ways to make more money in the stock markets, some are very good at it, some are lousy.
What about baseball players? How about hobbyists or artists or writers?

Just don't slam at people for doing something they like to do to stimulate their minds, keep them busy and share the knowledge instead of lounging on an armchair, eating junks and watching the boob-tube as past-time. Deny ignorance, you know? Obviously, you aren't embracing the ATS's most famous mantra.

Originally posted by sebatwerkThe Bavartian Illuminati was neither secret nor powerful. They were terrible at maintaining an organization, much less internal unity. They were not disbanded, they "broke up" because of internal bickering among senior members. They accomplished none of their goals. They were neither influential nor powerful, their political effect and contributions were insignificant at best. And you're trying to tell me that they changed the world?

You failed to take into account that the very ideas of what the Bavarian Illuminati were promoting were very powerful and compelling enough to pass onto worthy successors who also learned the mistakes and failures of Weishaupt's secret society. Political effects or contributions aside, it was a very significant group with very significant purposes and ideas for mankind.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Because I have studied basic psychology. Any psychologist or mental philosopher can tell you that sane people must justify misdeeds to themselves. Nobody steals, kills or hurts without justifying it and making it OK to themselves. Even people in power must justify their actions to themselves, as well as their constituents.

On the last sentence, that is true. But to the elite of the world, it matter not. Only the goals of the Illuminati are more important to the NWO elite than the rest of mankind. To them, a planet of useful idiots that doesn't do much good for Earth, the environment and reckless consumption of resources in this epoch but useful nonetheless.

Sebatwerk, please refrain from slamming people's views on conspiracy theories and whether they believe in it 100% or not. Debunking a conspiracy theory is one thing, but debunking a person's views on conspiracy theories is entirely a different issue. People will come to their own conclusions in time, some people may not. But not all people have the luxury of time and money to delve any more deeper than what the Internet have provided so far. There are many old works, documents and books that have never been read in a long time and are collecting dusts in many other places, just waiting to be discovered.

Ask Stanton T. Friedman. He didn't collect and research all the informations on the UFOS via the Internet alone. He went deeper than that in his own luxury of time and money, something that most people, like me, do not have.

[edit on 6/29/2005 by the_oleneo]

Originally posted by the_oleneo
Now, now, you're just slamming people like me for having a different view/knowledge than yours, even such views you assumed not to be true because you don't know any better? Hmph.

If I came off as offensive, I'm sorry. It was not my intention. I just want people to stop representing theory and assumptions as FACT. It confuses readers and is what starts myths.

Are robots fantasy nowaday? Less than a hundred years ago, robots were considered fantasy, a stuff of science fiction and people wrote stories about robots for years.

Yes but back then robots were still fiction, and there was no evidence or fact to suggest otherwise. Just because technology has changed and made this possible NOW does not mean that it was any less fiction back then.

Just don't slam at people for doing something they like to do to stimulate their minds

Fair enough, just don't state something as being factual when it is nothing of the sort.

Deny ignorance, you know? Obviously, you aren't embracing the ATS's most famous mantra.

I am absolutely denying ignorance. I am trying to get people to distinguish fact from theory, and trying to get people to stop misrepresenting the information they post. And with Freemasonry, I am trying to teach people about it, to clear up all the misconceptions and lies that have been floating around about the fraternity.

You failed to take into account that the very ideas of what the Bavarian Illuminati were promoting were very powerful and compelling enough to pass onto worthy successors who also learned the mistakes and failures of Weishaupt's secret society. Political effects or contributions aside, it was a very significant group with very significant purposes and ideas for mankind.

I don't agree. If you are talking about their precedents, such as Spain's Alumbrados or even the masonic lodges of the time, then that is a different story. But the Bavarian Illuminati was nothing more than a blip on the world timeline, and would never have reached the revisionist historical status it has today if it had not been for conspiracy theorists who try to connect today's supposed Illuminati with the Bavarian Illuminati of the late 1700s.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Any psychologist or mental philosopher can tell you that sane people must justify misdeeds to themselves.

On the last sentence, that is true. But to the elite of the world, it matter not. Only the goals of the Illuminati are more important to the NWO elite than the rest of mankind. To them, a planet of useful idiots that doesn't do much good for Earth, the environment and reckless consumption of resources in this epoch but useful nonetheless.

There you go again! Stop stating something as FACT when it is only your THEORY! You cannot prove this to yourself or anyone else, so why are you posting this here like it's a proven fact?!? THIS is exactly what I am fighting against, and THIS is my way of denying ignorance.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but damn...

I agree with the_oleneo. He was not saying his theory was fact. He has used the evidence to his point of view. He has not just said "Pigs fly. Thats a fact." and then not give any evidence. You go around and say "Thats not true, there is nothing to support this theory." Well, give us some evidence proving the illuminati does not exist. You are also assuming things. If you want to be sure 100%, well, we can't do that with conspiracy theories. We use the little evidence we have to make an inference based on the evidence and an educated guess. You are right that we are assuming a little bit. Everyone has to assume something when discussing conspirecy theories.

Eveyone has different theories and views on these topics because there is little evidence on both sides. But the evidence we do have we use to our advantage. We do have to make a logical inference because we have such little evidence. Here at ATS we have to go beyond the box, and try to see if there is something beyond our understanding or control. Not,"this is not correct. This is not logical. etc..." Because, lets face it, this is conspiricy theories we are talking about here! A conspiracy is secret and covered up, not right in our faces. Thats why we have such little evidence. And don't say, "theres little evidence because it's not true." , because we do have some evidence, not none. A conspiricy theory is logically represented if it has these things:

A. Some evidence to support the theories possibility
B. A logical inference based off of the evidence and an educated guess to fill in the gaps.

NOT:

A. Evidence that proves the theory 100%
B. No inferences or "assumsions."

The second one is not looking outside of the box. The second one is used for scientific law, not conspirecy theories. Actually, science even "assumes."
It is called a hypothesis.

5aret

Originally posted by 5aret
You go around and say "Thats not true, there is nothing to support this theory." Well, give us some evidence proving the illuminati does not exist. You are also assuming things.

You know how absurd that sound, right? That is a typical troll tactic and I will NOT play along. Would you accuse someone of murder, than have them prove they did not do it? There's a reason why people are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the accuser.

If you want to be sure 100%, well, we can't do that with conspiracy theories.

Then don't post them as being fact. the_oleneo did not say "this is a fact", but he claimed it as if it were true. He said "The Illuminati does this..." instead of saying "I believe that the Illuminati does this.." There are people that read this and assume it's true. This is how ignorance is spread and how myths are created.

We use the little evidence we have to make an inference based on the evidence and an educated guess.

What evidence!?!? I've never seen ANYONE provide evidence of any kind when dealing with these conspiracy theories. If there is any such evidence, please produce it here for all of us to see.

Eveyone has different theories and views on these topics because there is little evidence on both sides. But the evidence we do have we use to our advantage. We do have to make a logical inference because we have such little evidence.

But that's the problem! There is NO evidence, NOTHING so even SUGGEST that any of these theories might be true. The theory of the Illuminati, for example, started in a fiction novel, and quickly became an urban myth! There has NEVER been ANY kind of legitimate, conclusive evidence to make a rational, logical person think that this is something worth believing.

It amazes me that in a forum full of people who claim to deny ignorance, SO MANY people believe so strongly in something that is, up until now, nothing more than a fantasy!

And don't say, "theres little evidence because it's not true." , because we do have some evidence, not none.

Is there? Please produce it then! Because, until now, I have seen NOTHING to suggest otherwise. I never said that we need conclusive evidence that proves this 100%, but I just want to see something that SUPPORTS this theory! Until now, I don't think ANYONE has ever seen such thing. If I am wrong, then please show me.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I am absolutely denying ignorance. I am trying to get people to distinguish fact from theory, and trying to get people to stop misrepresenting the information they post. And with Freemasonry, I am trying to teach people about it, to clear up all the misconceptions and lies that have been floating around about the fraternity.

I understand your feeling. I make every effort to distinguish fact from fiction or theory based on what I know, learn, and research. I'm not simply misrepresenting information, mesh with different theories with facts and confuse readers. I focus on what is already known, how this come to being, why it's been persistent and even consistent with events and facts for the past 200+ years, how does it all fit together and what's not, the subtle meanings of it, the nature of extreme secrecy, the words/statements of certain well-known or least-known people, the influences and policies they set forth, follow the money/links or patterns deemed not too obvious to the public perception and present an assumed picture of the Illuminati and all of its connective roots that it grew to. Yes, I say, "assumed". No "ah-ha" there. I'm presenting a theory based on what facts and knowledges I've come across. I've gone deep and I've been very careful to separate credible or legitimate sources from false, absurd or inaccurate sources.

It's good that you're teaching what Freemasonry is all about. It's your rightful duty. But bear in mind, it's up to people to take your words for it or not. Most people aren't that well-informed in hearing or learning about Freemasonry. They just pick it up from here or there over the years but never take the time to learn more about it. People see Freemasonry based on what it is presented to be in the public mind: a secret society (or a private fraternal organization, if you prefers but it is all the same as a secret society, anyway). They'll learn more once they're interesting in being Masons or they'll see it as an obvious cult of something satanic or whatever. Some here will take my words for it, some do not.

We can't please all people, you know?

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I don't agree. If you are talking about their precedents, such as Spain's Alumbrados or even the masonic lodges of the time, then that is a different story. But the Bavarian Illuminati was nothing more than a blip on the world timeline, and would never have reached the revisionist historical status it has today if it had not been for conspiracy theorists who try to connect today's supposed Illuminati with the Bavarian Illuminati of the late 1700s.

Don't underestimate the indiscernible nature of the Illuminati's idealistic goals for mankind. Back in an early post I've made - I've suggested that being in the Illuminati meant an illuminated (or initiated) person who is trusted to keep and pass on secret plans to like-minded people. Just as you are as a 32º Freemason trusted to keep certain rules and ideas from new members until they attain higher degree levels to the satisfaction of long-time members. The rest of the masses may not know much or purposely kept in the dark by perpetual ignorance, apathy, fear or indifference by their own doings in life. Few would venture further or deeper than what others feared to tread on.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
There you go again! Stop stating something as FACT when it is only your THEORY! You cannot prove this to yourself or anyone else, so why are you posting this here like it's a proven fact?!? THIS is exactly what I am fighting against, and THIS is my way of denying ignorance.

I am simply pointing what is pretty obvious and factual to me. I've some insights on things that you may not even comprehend yourself and I always think outside of the box. Maybe you don't know any better than I do or vice versa. I don't wish to cancel you out by denying your ignorance.

[edit on 6/30/2005 by the_oleneo]

[edit on 6/30/2005 by the_oleneo]

Originally posted by the_oleneo
I make every effort to distinguish fact from fiction or theory based on what I know, learn, and research.

But you don't seem to distinguish fact from fiction when you post, and therein lies the problem, in my opinion. Many people on conspiracy theory forums tend to be very trusting when it comes to other people'sposted 'information'. It's important to be clear and concise, and to inform readers what is indeed known fact and what is only supposition.

It's good that you're teaching what Freemasonry is all about. It's your rightful duty. But bear in mind, it's up to people to take your words for it or not. Most people aren't that well-informed in hearing or learning about Freemasonry.

Yeah I know, and it disturbs me that people who KNOW they are not well-informed on the subject still refuse to trust information coming from an actual member. This is, ironically, due to the misconception they have that Freemasons are sworn to lie about the fraternity. Absolutely ridiculous.

a secret society (or a private fraternal organization, if you prefers but it is all the same as a secret society, anyway).

It is not the same thing, Freemasonry is not a secret society. We are listed in the phone book, accept petitions from ALL men, we are open about our affiliation, our buildings are clearly marked, and we're very open about our society. For these reasons alone, Freemasonry cannot be a secret society. But we do have our secrets, and we do keep our meetings private. This is no different than your average corporation. Are they secret societies?

But back to the topic...

Don't underestimate the indiscernible nature of the Illuminati's idealistic goals for mankind.

How do YOU know what this "indiscernible nature" is?!? DO you know this for a fact, or is it an assumption/ supposition on your part?!? You make no effort to distinguish fact from theory in your posts, and you keep misrepresenting information even as we discuss this topic!

I am simply pointing what is pretty obvious and factual to me.

But when you point it out without providing any kind of evidence or support, and without stating that it is only your theory, you confuse people, and make them assume that this has been established by a majority of people as common knowledge, which it is not.

Originally posted by mwen

Originally posted by sebatwerk

It might be just a LITTLE hard to get into the Illuminati, especially considering that they don't exist! There is NO proof of their existence ANYWHERE, EVER! I don't understand why so many people are coninced they exist, when NOBODY has ever put forth valid evidence proving they exist. I guess some people are willing to believe ANYBODY who can manage to get a book deal.

I noticed your Mason Avatar, being a mason requirs one to believe in a single god....Do you have proof a single god exists? Its nieve to think because there is no proof something isn't real...come on now.

Originally posted by Freedomrik
I noticed your Mason Avatar, being a mason requirs one to believe in a single god....Do you have proof a single god exists? Its nieve to think because there is no proof something isn't real...come on now.

I don't go around telling other people that God is absolutely real, and I don't misrepresent FACT from FAITH. What I believe is what I believe, and I don't pretend to convince anyone else of this, nor do I intend to confuse them by talking about a single god like it's common knowledge.

Like I said: my problem is not what someone believes, it's when they misrepresent a belief or theory as being FACT.

I'm pretty sure you join the illumiati by sending a stamped addressed envelope to:

P.O. Box 21123
London
UK

Originally posted by sebatwerk
[But when you point it out without providing any kind of evidence or support, and without stating that it is only your theory, you confuse people, and make them assume that this has been established by a majority of people as common knowledge, which it is not.

Seb is perfectly correct. You must realize this folks!

All you have to do is say, "I really feel this is true based on A, B, and C." Don't say it like it's an actual fact unless you KNOW it is. I think that's all Seb is trying to say. Temper your language. The IDEA of the Illuminati conspiracy is very intriguing. It really is! It is soooooo possible that there is a group of amoral cultists who view history like the Chinese....way in advance....and they are setting plans to take over. But it's just a theory unless you can provide evidence. If you can't, preface your comments with the fact that it's just your idea....or something you read on a website that seemed right. Seb is helping you. If you keep spouting an idea that seems groovy as Fact, but has NO basis in fact, it confuses people. Tell it like it is. Admit that it is your 'gut instinct' or that it 'seems right.' Don't say, 'They do this and that.' You don't know, do you? It just 'feels' right. Right? Well.....say it like it is. That's the point.

Be well all you freakazoids. Really.

You know how absurd that sound, right? That is a typical troll tactic and I will NOT play along. Would you accuse someone of murder, than have them prove they did not do it? There's a reason why people are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the accuser.

There you go again, thinking this is a court case. I'm not talking about murder, Im talking about the illuminati! I've been saying this is my theory all along, but you just say "you have no evidence", well here is the evidence I have: oh ya, don't post again and say "this is not valid evidence" or something like that, because it is to me. My evidence is that I have eye witness accounts of people being talkiedto by the illumianati, I have several letter about the illuminati written by senators and the like, and I have several other pieces of evidence such as: footprints, fingerprints, etc... Theres you proof. It is little evidence, but it is evidence to me.

Then don't post them as being fact. the_oleneo did not say "this is a fact", but he claimed it as if it were true. He said "The Illuminati does this..." instead of saying "I believe that the Illuminati does this.." There are people that read this and assume it's true. This is how ignorance is spread and how myths are created.

I agree that you can't be 100% sure that you're theory is true without alot of conclusive evidence, but you could have said that from the begininning.

What evidence!?!? I've never seen ANYONE provide evidence of any kind when dealing with these conspiracy theories. If there is any such evidence, please produce it here for all of us to see.

I already did up there. If you want the exact evidence, tell me.

But that's the problem! There is NO evidence, NOTHING so even SUGGEST that any of these theories might be true. The theory of the Illuminati, for example, started in a fiction novel, and quickly became an urban myth! There has NEVER been ANY kind of legitimate, conclusive evidence to make a rational, logical person think that this is something worth believing.

We try to make inferences based off of the evidence we have. We know they might not be 100% accurate, but please just take them into account.

It amazes me that in a forum full of people who claim to deny ignorance, SO MANY people believe so strongly in something that is, up until now, nothing more than a fantasy!

It might be a fantasy to you, but to people that try to think outside of the box, we try to find evidence and make inferences based off of the evidence. Theres little evidence to suggest theres such thing as a quirck, but the "scientific" community establishes it a fact!

5aret

Originally posted by 5aret
There you go again, thinking this is a court case. I'm not talking about murder, Im talking about the illuminati!

Maybe so, but these issues should be approached with logic and rationale, in a scientific method, as if it indeed WERE a court case! This is the method by which the truth can be discovered.

My evidence is that I have eye witness accounts of people being talkiedto by the illumianati, I have several letter about the illuminati written by senators and the like, and I have several other pieces of evidence such as: footprints, fingerprints, etc... Theres you proof. It is little evidence, but it is evidence to me.

Can you provide any of this evidence for us here on ATS? Scan the letters, post images of these footprints and fingerprints (I don't understand how footprints can prove the existence of a global secret society, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :up, and whatever else. Don't just tell us you have this, SHOW US.

It might be a fantasy to you, but to people that try to think outside of the box, we try to find evidence and make inferences based off of the evidence.

So you're saying that I don't think outside of the box? Or that I'm close-minded? Why, because I don't see things your way? Because I look for a reasonable and logical explanation for things?

[edit on 1-7-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
But you don't seem to distinguish fact from fiction when you post, and therein lies the problem, in my opinion. Many people on conspiracy theory forums tend to be very trusting when it comes to other people'sposted 'information'. It's important to be clear and concise, and to inform readers what is indeed known fact and what is only supposition.

Then that is YOUR problem, not mine. If I'm posting something fictitious, I'll be writing a story here, not a post. However, many authors, well-known to least-known, used facts as supplements or supporting elements to the fiction novels. Take Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code and Angels and Demons books, he used well-known and little-known facts from the past or today's events for his fictional stories. That's the fun part.

I'm not going to be the one who should decide the Illuminati exists and continue to exist in one form or another. It is already existed for the reason that it is meant to be hidden from the truth and general public knowledge. You are trying to disprove its existence because either you don't know much or you are in denial of its acknowledged fact and ignore its links to proven events and persons associated with the Illuminati's GOALS all bearing down to this day. I would suggest you're in the latter and not the former.

Fact, fiction .... it all comes down to the meaning and purpose of it.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
It is not the same thing, Freemasonry is not a secret society. We are listed in the phone book, accept petitions from ALL men, we are open about our affiliation, our buildings are clearly marked, and we're very open about our society. For these reasons alone, Freemasonry cannot be a secret society. But we do have our secrets, and we do keep our meetings private. This is no different than your average corporation. Are they secret societies?

Sorry but Freemasonry is a secret society (or a fraternal society with secrets?). You can argue that it is not until you're blue in your face. I seem to recall that a ATS member with a John Wayne avatar shot you down on the secret society/Freemasonry issue. But cannot remember which thread.

Originally posted by sebatwerkHow do YOU know what this "indiscernible nature" is?!? DO you know this for a fact, or is it an assumption/ supposition on your part?!? You make no effort to distinguish fact from theory in your posts, and you keep misrepresenting information even as we discuss this topic!

A big *sigh*. Who am I arguing with? A George Costanza? To be continued....

Sorry, I don't have a scanner to put them up. I can tell you what the letters say, and give you specific eyewitness reports. I would put them up if I had a scanner. I do have one piece of evidence though, you see I had a scanner and I saved this piece in my computer. Here it is:




Other than that, I can't post the images.

5aret

Originally posted by the_oleneo
You are trying to disprove its existence because either you don't know much or you are in denial of its acknowledged fact and ignore its links to proven events and persons associated with the Illuminati's GOALS all bearing down to this day. I would suggest you're in the latter and not the former.

Actually I am simply trying to approach the issue of its existence from a logical and rational angle. When I do that, i come to the simple conclusion that there is not, nor has there EVER been a single logical reason to believe they exist. Plain and simple.

Sorry but Freemasonry is a secret society (or a fraternal society with secrets?). You can argue that it is not until you're blue in your face. I seem to recall that a ATS member with a John Wayne avatar shot you down on the secret society/Freemasonry issue. But cannot remember which thread.

So please tell me, what makes Freemasonry a secret society? If we are listed in the phone book, we can be contacted anywhere, our members are open about their affiliation, our goals, constitutions, history, secrets, etc are all published and available to the public.... WHAT about Freemasonry makes it a secret society?

And the user you are thinking of is All-Seeing-Eye. When did he shoot me down in this topic? ALL he was ever able to do was to keep saying that Freemasonry is a cult over and over, and was NEVER able to support his claims. Even when I provided him with a link to definition of a cult, and to another that gave 21 reasons why Freemasonry could not be a cult, he simply kept stating over and over again. He was a typical troll, looking to get a reaction from us. Fine example you just provided . So exactly how did he shoot me down again? Please support your claim with evidence.

Or will you do like a troll does and, when it comes time to provide evidence, conveniently ignore the thread?