Military opinions and war experience

Originally posted by Kidfinger
I have heard of this. When I went to boot camp. The only thing we had was a TTO. Or for those who are unfamilliar with it, a Technical Time Out. You could only use it if you felt your life was in danger. Getting roughed up by the Company Commander was no excuse for it. Mainly it was used due to heat related issues. Heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

Wait, you mean they don't call them Training Time Out's anymore?

Geez, what is the world coming to?

back in my day ( hang on, let the 'ol geezzer put the cane down) we had nothing. the only 'lee-way' they gave us was to unbloose our boots when it was over 90. even saw a DI floor a smart ass kid to the ground. now-a-days, on some basic training camps, the trainees carry their sleeping mat with them so they wont hurt there hands and wrist while doing exercieses on the dirty wet ground and one at least one camp as a weekend time out were the trainee will be separated from the rest and given a break for a weekend to 'evaluate' thier desicion to be in basic training. good or bad..i don't know............

Originally posted by clearmind
now-a-days, on some basic training camps, the trainees carry their sleeping mat with them so they wont hurt there hands and wrist while doing exercieses on the dirty wet

Man, you gotta be kidding me?!

They loved dropping us on the hot burning gravel/pavement especially (in the heat of August, no less). They were sadistic. Our hands looked like hamburger meat after drill and ceremonies. When I graduated BASIC, I had dirt stained into my hands. I was like, OMD, my hands are always gonna dirty!!

Originally posted by COOL HAND


Wait, you mean they don't call them Training Time Out's anymore?

Geez, what is the world coming to?

No, we had Training Time Outs as well, but they were reserved for classroom oriented problems. For those people who have never been to bootcamp, yes there are classes there

Originally posted by Kidfinger
No, we had Training Time Outs as well, but they were reserved for classroom oriented problems. For those people who have never been to bootcamp, yes there are classes there

They tortured us.. in classes.

I tell you they were sadistic. At that time, the drills could not cuss at you. Therefore, they got very creative. And that is never a good thing.

I remember being sleep-deprived and struggling to stay awake through a half day's training films (Soviet operations) and lectures on all things pertaining to that. We were stuffed into neatly arranged folding chairs inside a World War II hangar at the end of August. It was sweltering like a greenhouse.

If they caught eyes drooping for more than a three count, they'd loudly remove your azz and take you to the reer where you would do excruciating exercises until the drill would "get tired of looking at you."

Have you ever seen a human body shake and quake and drip with sweat and tears.. or even blood? It's hard to look at. Because you know that could be you. So you keep your damn eyes open! No matter what.

Class was torture.

I'd consider those exercises to be a form of soft torture. But you know what, it didn't hurt us. It helped.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
I totally agree w/your view onnit Skadi.

Hell, I was surprised that boot camp wasn't any harder than it was in '89.

My friend & brother both told me (regarding Clinton's Army) that in boot camp, recruits are given cards with the number of Chaplain, or hot line, to COMPLAIN about rough or unfair treatment.

You know what I say about that? BOO FU**ING HOO!

If you can't take the soft torture, which boot camp used to be, you have NO business serving in the military, let alone going to WAR!

CRY ME A RIVER!

I agree with you and Skadi, when I was in bootcamp in October of 1980, My drill instructor beat the crap outta 2 guys in my platoon....one of the beatings I witnised, but I never ratted out the DI cause the guy I saw beaten had a big mouth and deserved the beating he got.

The thought of mouthing off to my DI never even entered my mind. Anyhow, Clinton did offload alot of the good veterans that woulda never gone along with his policies.

Maximu§

To be fair, it started under President Bush after we came home from the Gulf. My last year in ('92), I saw the program to buy people out begin in earnest. But Clinton kept that going. And going.

I thought it was stupid at the time. I believed threats were still very much alive. Just because we said the soviet union is now a Democracy! Hooray beer!" It didn't mean the threat was gone. All those missiles were still aimed at us, and vice versa.

I saw a lot people at lower ranks buy out, earning eternal bars to re-enlistment, only to probably get out and wind up wellfare. We weren't saving any money by doing that.

And all the bright young officers and NCOs came home, got out and went to work in phat jobs with great companies. Or came back to work with us as contractors.

Having said all that, I have to say, George H.W. Bush was a great commander-in-chief. And his men who led us were great at what they did. They executed that war right. And for that, having served in it, I am eternally grateful. If we had to go, we did it right. (And for what we thought was right.)

[edit on 6/6/05 by EastCoastKid]

This has been a great thread so far. I have a new found respect for members I have bumped into on other posts. Very interesting and informative. And the manners!!

Not having any military experience worth comparing with people who have seen combat, bar some years service in the 2nd line reserve FCA elite drinking unit of the Irish D.F., I still offer up my lightly salted 2 cents.

Political correctness will be the end of the Western military.

I served enough years as an instructor to see the difference. For us it happened when women were allowed to enlist. Now, before any female members go for my jugular, let me point out that I didn't see the women as the problem.

In fact, the female soldiers I trained and served with were some of the most serious, commited and skilled people I had the pleasure to meet. Even more than the guys, who we had serious discipline problems with at the time.

Just before the females started to come through into the ranks, we had a very noticable discipline problem. I was a corporal at the time and well noted for being strict but also for holding to the 3 F's: Firm, Fair and Friendly. The guys we had coming in were coming straight from High School and it was obvious they had never had any respect for authority figures. It is something I am not proud of, but it came to me having to kick the hell out of the ring leaders to get any respect and authority over them. I had always managed to induce butt-clenching fear from half a square away by my voice alone and was saddened that it had to come to that.

The problems came to a head with a change in S.O.P.'s when the females arrived. I had since become a Sergeant and mellowed out a bit, but I was disgusted at how soft the training had become. I was laughing at earlier posts regarding "time outs" and using soft mats for fear of hurting their little handies on the hard ground. I never had that and I just sucked it up and got on with it. It made me a better person.

As a recruit I was given, through this treatment, a gauge of what the most important basics were. I laugh inside when I hear people complaining about the cold or food here on civvie street. I remember eating the equivalent of dogfood while freezing my butt off on exercises. A little bit of toughing up makes you appreciate the nicer things in life.

So I put it to the vets and more experienced military types on this thread. Is the current society capable of producing real soldiers? Is the Y-Gen with their ingrained "want it all, deserve it all" attitude going to be the death of western society? Because if it ever comes to conflict and the other side who have never been pampered are going to be hungry enough to win, we are going to be in deep trouble.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Having said all that, I have to say, George H.W. Bush was a great commander-in-chief. And his men who led us were great at what they did. They executed that war right. And for that, having served in it, I am eternally grateful. If we had to go, we did it right. (And for what we thought was right.)

[edit on 6/6/05 by EastCoastKid]

I agree there. George Bush Sr was president when I enlisted, went through basic and A.I.T. I was in my final two weeks of A.I.T. when the elections were going on, Clinton was elected, and I saw a collective shudder through the ranks of our instructors. They knew what was comming. Since my A.I.T. was at Ft. Belvior, 15 minutes out of D.C., I remeber the feeling of utter dread throughout the entire DOD. It was not a happy time

I was shocked to hear, as I was shipping off to my new duty station in Germany, that the basic trainees were allowed to watch TV, movies, even eat pizza. Just a few months prior, when our drill seargants asked us if we wanted to go to "the movies"....those who were dumb enough were taken to the Ft Jackson base theater, and marched behind it, then dropped and smoked there in the back, which was infested with fire ant hills. That was our movies: push ups and situps and dying cockroaches till we puked while red hot fire ants crawled all over us and dined. As far as watching TV? If we were on fireguard or CQ, and we walked pas the drill's office and got caught looking at the tv, we were allowed to watch tv for the rest of our shift.....in the front leaning rest position. And even get caught mentioning pizza....................................*****shuder****


So, if cruits cant deal with biting fire ants, extended periods of discomfort, sleep deprivation, #ty food, and abuse......what makes them think they will deal with RPGs and suicide bombers?

WE had no TTOs. You pretty much got your time out when you passed out from the heat.

I did my basic at Ft Jackson, SC, from June to August. You know, temps in the 90's and sometimes 100's complete with humidity. And fire ants. When you do your first field exercise and dig your foxholes, you even get to sleep with all those fire ants you pissed off when you destroyed their homes.

I wonder if these new recruits get to use citronella scented poncho liners, bug spray....assuming the even have to dig fortifications or even go into the field.

Whats next.....personal manicurists? Oxygen bars?

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
This has been a great thread so far. I have a new found respect for members I have bumped into on other posts. Very interesting and informative. And the manners!!

Not having any military experience worth comparing with people who have seen combat, bar some years service in the 2nd line reserve FCA elite drinking unit of the Irish D.F., I still offer up my lightly salted 2 cents.

Political correctness will be the end of the Western military.

I served enough years as an instructor to see the difference. For us it happened when women were allowed to enlist. Now, before any female members go for my jugular, let me point out that I didn't see the women as the problem.

In fact, the female soldiers I trained and served with were some of the most serious, commited and skilled people I had the pleasure to meet. Even more than the guys, who we had serious discipline problems with at the time.

Just before the females started to come through into the ranks, we had a very noticable discipline problem. I was a corporal at the time and well noted for being strict but also for holding to the 3 F's: Firm, Fair and Friendly. The guys we had coming in were coming straight from High School and it was obvious they had never had any respect for authority figures. It is something I am not proud of, but it came to me having to kick the hell out of the ring leaders to get any respect and authority over them. I had always managed to induce butt-clenching fear from half a square away by my voice alone and was saddened that it had to come to that.

The problems came to a head with a change in S.O.P.'s when the females arrived. I had since become a Sergeant and mellowed out a bit, but I was disgusted at how soft the training had become. I was laughing at earlier posts regarding "time outs" and using soft mats for fear of hurting their little handies on the hard ground. I never had that and I just sucked it up and got on with it. It made me a better person.

As a recruit I was given, through this treatment, a gauge of what the most important basics were. I laugh inside when I hear people complaining about the cold or food here on civvie street. I remember eating the equivalent of dogfood while freezing my butt off on exercises. A little bit of toughing up makes you appreciate the nicer things in life.

So I put it to the vets and more experienced military types on this thread. Is the current society capable of producing real soldiers? Is the Y-Gen with their ingrained "want it all, deserve it all" attitude going to be the death of western society? Because if it ever comes to conflict and the other side who have never been pampered are going to be hungry enough to win, we are going to be in deep trouble.

I am female and I agree on several points.

The standards for women are ridiculously low. I mean, I was no star athlete, yet I could pass the PT test on male standards, although in the lower brackets. The female standards, I felt were a huge insult to any female who was serious about being a soldier. Lower standards do not motivate a person to push themselves, to become more than they could.

t is political correctness that hurts female soldiers more than it helps. Changing standards for females is an insult to our sex. Those of us who are capable do not want anything changed. We joined because that was what the life was. Liberals insult female soldiers by assuming that things must change, because we are too weak or senstitive to handle say, dirty jokes, dirty cadences, heavy physical labor, ect. And female soldiers suffer more from the concequences of PC garbage pushed on the military, because in the end, they get blamed for something they reject anyway.

Tho in Basic training, we didnt use soft mats.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I was shocked to hear, as I was shipping off to my new duty station in Germany, that the basic trainees were allowed to watch TV, movies, even eat pizza.

When I went through BASIC entertainment was that last hour 1/2 in the evening before you dropped dead (9 pm), hanging out w/your buddies, shining boots. Sharing stories from home. Showing each other tatoos.

The other few moments I can think of are standing in line, waiting to shower, half dead & just chatting it up. Or going to a worship service on Sunday morning to get away from the drills and the unit. Beyond that, there was NO peace. And damn sure no MOVIES, or entertainment. And you know what? As others, as well as myself, have noted, it only made us better. It wasn't that hard, man. You simply adhered to Gunny Highway's words in "Heartbreak Ridge," (one of my faves) Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!"

Just a few months prior, when our drill seargants asked us if we wanted to go to "the movies"....those who were dumb enough were taken to the Ft Jackson base theater, and marched behind it, then dropped and smoked there in the back, which was infested with fire ant hills.

LMAO! How I remember those Jane Fonda workouts, as my drill loved to call them. Man, you either laughed or cried.. I usually got us even deeper in trouble, because I would lose it and be laughing so hard I could barely do the flutterkicks (the bane of my then existence).

30 more for Private Dumbazz!

So, if cruits cant deal with biting fire ants, extended periods of discomfort, sleep deprivation, #ty food, and abuse......what makes them think they will deal with RPGs and suicide bombers?

Amen to that.

WE had no TTOs. You pretty much got your time out when you passed out from the heat.

Amen and Amen again. You know, throughout my entire training, from BASIC to AIT, the thought of falling out, no matter how fu**ed up I felt, NEVER even occurred to me. It was not an option. I credit my drills with that. From day one, without even swearing, as I mentioned before, they just somehow instilled the fear of God into all of us. And when we did what we were supposed to, our drills were fair with us. They could go a little psycho on us, but overall, I think they had the right leadership, and well, shyte rolls down hill.

I did my basic at Ft Jackson, SC, from June to August. You know, temps in the 90's and sometimes 100's complete with humidity. And fire ants. When you do your first field exercise and dig your foxholes, you even get to sleep with all those fire ants you pissed off when you destroyed their homes.

You poor girl. I grew up a few hours up the road from where you trained. I know how you felt. I also went through boot camp beginning in August. It was hellish also. Hot and humid when we started and freezing when we went to AIT. I got to share foxholes with more spiders than I have ever seen in one location. It was an eye-opening experience, to say the least. (I hate spiders, btw. ) But hey - I made it, and lived to see much worse.

Skadi - do you ever remember hearing those wild felines screaming into the night air over in Saudi? I swear there were times I thought those fricken cats were gonna come eat my brains while I slept! They sounded like they could eat.. a large dog or maybe small children. I'm not kidding.

I wonder if these new recruits get to use citronella scented poncho liners, bug spray....assuming the even have to dig fortifications or even go into the field.

[edit on 6/7/05 by EastCoastKid]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
It is political correctness that hurts female soldiers more than it helps. Changing standards for females is an insult to our sex. Those of us who are capable do not want anything changed. We joined because that was what the life was. Liberals insult female soldiers by assuming that things must change, because we are too weak or senstitive to handle say, dirty jokes, dirty cadences, heavy physical labor, ect. And female soldiers suffer more from the concequences of PC garbage pushed on the military, because in the end, they get blamed for something they reject anyway.

What are soft mats? We had hot pavement, dusted with gravel.

Forget BASIC, going through training like Air Assault, I saw men fall out and wash out when many of their female counterparts made it. And many said that school was even more difficult than Airborne. Somebody needs to point that out to that jackass congressman Duncan Hunter from Kaleeforneea.. or whatever his name is. His paternalism is nauseating considering he's using for political gain.

I think U.S. military training needs to be more "firey," definitely. It all starts in training, whether you remember your training or not. Some of it eventually becomes a part of you. When I went to military school, it wasn't like our training was exactly like real training, but it was close enough. To be able to earn the privilege of serving, you have to not only be able to endure all the hardships, you have to show you really want to serve. I just think the military needs to get people who actually wants to be in the military instead of people who just want the college money and benefits. Numbers need to be deemphasized over the quality of the soldier.

However, in terms of physical abuse, I am totally against it. Nobody should have to suffer physical damage that comes in the form of fists and feet to the midsection and face. Having to face the enemy in combat is bad enough!

Regarding women, I am FOR full integration of women into the U.S. military. Personally, I see all the restrictions placed on women more of a product of our sometimes-restrictive society rather than any political POV, like Skadi says.

Really, do people only see the politics in things?

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Forget BASIC, going through training like Air Assault, I saw men fall out and wash out when many of their female counterparts made it. And many said that school was even more difficult than Airborne. Somebody needs to point that out to that jackass congressman Duncan Hunter from Kaleeforneea.. or whatever his name is. His paternalism is nauseating considering he's using for political gain.

Back when the U.S. Army recruiting website didn't have it's ridiculous "Army of One" moniker, the description for Air Assault was something like "If you cannot (something I can't remember), then you will not be in the Air Assault." That struck a chord in me. Air Assault is absolutely incredible, a totally unique military unit.

BTW, we're you in the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)?

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Some of it eventually becomes a part of you.

I assure you, sir, I STILL fold my undergarments/socks in the military manner; AND furthermore, if you inspect my wall loc.. er um, closet.. you will find my corporate uniforms and shirts spaced exactly one in apart and separated by color. I am also strangely compelled to make my bed first thing and to take out the trash as I am leaving for work.

I also never CHEW and WALK, lean on counters in public or put my hands in my pockets longer than I absolutely have to. Don't even get me started on unbuttoned buttons and strings on my clothing!

I kid you not. I am brainwashed.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Back when the U.S. Army recruiting website didn't have it's ridiculous "Army of One" moniker, the description for Air Assault was something like "If you cannot (something I can't remember), then you will not be in the Air Assault." That struck a chord in me. Air Assault is absolutely incredible, a totally unique military unit.

BTW, we're you in the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)?

I H A T E that S T U P I D moniker!

NOBODY gets through it ALONE!

Ok.. so now to answer your question.. Yes, luckily I was with the 101st my entire time in (minus training). I was with Aviation Brigade and I was Air Assault qualified.

Not sure what that motto was. That was a Shinseki/Clinton jam.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo


However, in terms of physical abuse, I am totally against it. Nobody should have to suffer physical damage that comes in the form of fists and feet to the midsection and face. Having to face the enemy in combat is bad enough!

Alot of people feel this way. But you have to consider what these people are training to do and what kind of situation they will be in while performing their duty. Without the roughness and strictness of a solid bootcamp, the trainees are not prepaired to face any threat. Without proper introduction, a recruit is liable to freeze during combat.

Regarding women, I am FOR full integration of women into the U.S. military.

I dont have a problem with women in combat roles. I have a problem with how the men act around women in combat roles. Men get sloppy when put in those situations and tend to worry more about the women than the objective. It doesnt make for a good mix. I think an all women platoon of Delta would be the most deadliest force on the planet. If you put one man in the mix, he would screw it all up thinking he is the only one who can protect those 'poor little women'. Man, why do us guys have to screw everything up all the time

[edit on 6/10/05 by Kidfinger]

When I went through BASIC men and women trained separately and then integrated in AIT (job training). It wasn't until I got out, I think, they started going through BASIC together (early '90's). Personally, I think it's better for men and women to go through BASIC segregated.

Why? Because men and women are men and women and they are easily distracted by one another. If you train them separately in BASIC then they are more able to concentrate on learning and less on who looks good at the moment. It doesn't matter how awful the environment or circumstances, men and women are gonna try and hook up. It just takes away from learning the fundamentals of fighting and survival, I think.

Once they've gotten all that out of the way, let them segregate.

I think it's better for men and women to go through BASIC segregated.

I agree
and good reasons that you listed!

Men and women, especially young ones like myself will try to hook up with the opposite sex...even in the field. The Marine Corps still has segregated boot camp and it is proven that segregated boot camps work better for both sex's. Boot camp is designed to be hard and mentally tough...and having same sex training units does not help

When I went through MCT (Marine Combat training), it's like a school after boot camp to teach the basics of weaponry, C&C and all that stuff...anyways when I went through it was sex segregated. The females had one platoon they were assigned to and had at least 50% females as thier instructors. The males had all male instructors. Recently they integrated the females into male platoons and that was a crash and burn.
A total failure from what my buddies tell me.

SOI (school of infantry) is still an all male MOS so the school is all males.