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Military opinions and war experience

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posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
And our foreign policy in Iraq is self destructive. Honestly, we would have been better off backing Saddam and keeping good relations with him. Morally, it wouldnt really effect us, since the Saudis are alot worse than the Baathists ever were. Sure, the Saudis didn't gas 100,000 Kurds, but then again, have you ever seemed their army? They would probably be more likely to end up gassing themselves.


better of backing Saddam eh? tsk tsk, i expect better of u to think u can live with someone like him. i wouldnt be surprise if u did the same for Hitler wen he was killing millions of people and u just shrug and say hey at least Hitler aint Gengis Khan.




posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy


better of backing Saddam eh? tsk tsk, i expect better of u to think u can live with someone like him. i wouldnt be surprise if u did the same for Hitler wen he was killing millions of people and u just shrug and say hey at least Hitler aint Gengis Khan.


Come on now. We are attempting to avoid this kind of name calling and opinion bashing on this thread. Skadi has an opinion and it is hers to have. Besides, if you had read a little better, you would have realized it was a comparison saying both were evil but she was choosing the lesser of the two in her mind. Lets try and play nice m'K.

[edit on 6/2/05 by Kidfinger]



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy


better of backing Saddam eh? tsk tsk, i expect better of u to think u can live with someone like him. i wouldnt be surprise if u did the same for Hitler wen he was killing millions of people and u just shrug and say hey at least Hitler aint Gengis Khan.


Not at all. If you had actually read or learned anything, you would have figured it out.

When given the choice between the Saudis and Saddam, id take Saddam. And if you know anything about the Saudis, you see why.

Saddam in no way could be compared to Hitler, but since you wish to bring up the silly comparison, lets have at it.

The Saudis in this case are more like the Nazis, and Saddam is comparable to Stalin. The Saudis are crazy ideological fanatics like the Nazis and racist as all hell, Saddam was, as Bin Laden once called him, a "godless socialist" who ruled his regime with an Iron fist.

So given the choice between Stalin and Hitler, Ill take Stalin again.

You obvious speak from a total lack of knowldge of just what kind of country Saudi Arabia is. Its exactly the type of country Bush claims he wants "regime change" in: a racist, xenophobic, religously driven, oppresive, undemocratic, abusive, and best of all, it breeds and harbors the very terrorists who did the dirty job on 9/11. Hell, even most other Arab countries find the Saudi society and governemt to be cruel and oppresive. That should tell you something.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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well gee since we invaded Iraq, which is right next to Saudi Arabia maybe u wonder why Bush invaded. maybe it has something to do with his ambitions for a Democratic middle east, and the Saudis are trying to prevent something like dat but they know they cant win so Saudis are heading to Iraq to prevent that. hmmmm i wonder..........



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
well gee since we invaded Iraq, which is right next to Saudi Arabia maybe u wonder why Bush invaded. maybe it has something to do with his ambitions for a Democratic middle east, and the Saudis are trying to prevent something like dat but they know they cant win so Saudis are heading to Iraq to prevent that. hmmmm i wonder..........


Hmmmmmmmmmm..........well gee, I wonder what you been smikin to think that Bush's plan is a Democratic middle east. Or to think its possible to do it at the end of a barrel of a gun.

Oh, you seem to forget just how tight and cozy the Bush family is with the Al-Sauds. Bosom buddies really. Even the Bin ladens too! But thats nothing. During the 9/11 commision, Bush and Co had several pages of documents blacked out where there were references of any kind to the Saudis. Sounds to me like Dubya be coverin up someones butt.

So while I can see why you are under the assumption that Bush is gonna spread democracy in the middle east, I can't believe youre naive enough to think hed ever Push it on his buddies in Riyahd. I mean, all this president has done as far as the Saudi's go is cover up and protect them, so they can continue doing what they have been doing: being evil. You ever stop to think one of the reasons for the war was the possibility to remove a potential threat to the Saudis? In case you werent aware, which you seem not to be, but the Saudis arent really popular in the middle east. Most of the rest of the Muslim world cant stand them. The Kuwaitis only tolerate them. They have many enemies, but the most dangerous was...dundundundah..................................IRAQ. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Oh, by the way, just so you know, Clinton was no better. Slick willy had his tounge firmly inserted in Saudi rectum too, tho he was far more discreet about it.

But I recommend you do real research into the middle east, and stop paying attention to media soundbites, because you arent gonna get any realistic picture of the realities of the region we currently rampage through. Do a little looking up into the Saudis. You might actually be......shocked that we befriend these people.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 05:31 PM
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maybe u can read the National Security of 2002

www.whitehouse.gov...

i wonder why this President who many people say wants oil be thinking about Democracy around the world, must be the Wilson mentality.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 05:42 PM
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i wouldnt be surprise if u did the same for Hitler wen he was killing millions of people and u just shrug and say hey at least Hitler aint Gengis Khan.

Deltaboy, come on now.....usually I side with you but in in this thread there is no need for comments and saying stuff like you did, ok man


And yes, Im sure even the others in this thread who have done the same as you did get a U2U from someone else asking them to stop....

However I do agree with you on some things you've said...but this is not the thread for that
Let's keep it cool

Sporty



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:38 PM
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You have earned the dubious distinction of being the first member on this thread, which stands now at ELEVEN PAGES, to have thrown a flame.

I am curious, do you have military experience? If so, we would like to hear from you about it. If not, you should be advised, to not mess with the evil elf!



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:40 PM
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thanks EastCoastKid, (bowing to EastCoastKid), but no i have no military experience but i do have the right to talk about my views.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
thanks EastCoastKid, (bowing to EastCoastKid), but no i have no military experience but i do have the right to talk about my views.


Out of respect for the nature of the thread, we ask that you keep it cool and civil. If ED, ECK and Kid can keep it cool...I know you can.

Many debative members have done so, it's not a hit on your pride, it's not gonna make you feel like the small guy.....

If you notice all the post in this thread somehow tie into the topic or they eventually do...however, yours do NOT. Just something to think about man. I enjoy reading this thread alot, im sure many others do too.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:50 PM
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sure no problem, since dis is about respected veterans who like to express themselves and wat experience they had, ill take no insult from that. i just like to how u say express my opinions to the men and women of the US of A's military. im outtaaa here.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf but then again, have you ever seemed their army? They would probably be more likely to end up gassing themselves.


Thats funny stuff...but also not the total truth. Their Air Force Pilots are fair to good and their troops did retake Kafhgi but they are not in the same class as a western army - agreed.



Glad to see a female perspective! Most and I use that term lightly are male pigs and I can understand why you feel the way you do.


I have not been there, but I have had discussions with many that have spent time (months to years) on the civilian side and I almost went at one point. Thing is, there is an element of the 'rich' that want out of the Royal scam, they want to be a leader among the Arabs and you must understand that there is an immense internal struggle to do away with the issues that you brought up. Sadly it is not a quick process.

Should we protect the House of Saud? In my opinion it depends, when cornered they have no choice because without the US they cease to exist. What do they offer in return? Somewhat Stability in a very unstable region.

Do you think it was easy getting the House of Saud to let women come defend them against their Arab brothers? Think about it, the changes that have occurred in just the last 20 years are immense, and they are starting to change more rapidly.

Funny, but by denying the use of our Saudi bases in invading Iraq, Bush side swiped them and they were to stupid to know it. We no longer must base troops there for the regions stability, we have Iraq for that purpose and Qatar and Bahrain.

When Iraq held elections, the whole Arab world watched via Al Jeezera and they pondered, and they want it. Without even realizing it, Bush fired a shot heard around the world and the relatives in the West confirm this.

Winds of change are amiss in the Middle East, big time. The House of Saud had better change and change quick or they loose, if a stable Iraq is there, the US has no reason to defend Saud anymore, first time since the 50's folks that was even an option...

What do I want out of this? Well for Iraq, to be stable and 'free'. Our brand of freedom? Not really, Arabs are different, but they are not stupid either and they know this is their chance....



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
sure no problem, since dis is about respected veterans who like to express themselves and wat experience they had, ill take no insult from that. i just like to how u say express my opinions to the men and women of the US of A's military. im outtaaa here.


There is no ego stroking going on here my friend, I assure you. We are merely trying to have a conversation without all the whining and bickering. This thread is open for all to participate in. The focus of the thread was on the thoughts and opinions of present and previous service members. There is no need for you to run off. Just consider the intent of the thread and keep the mud slinging to the 'slug fest' forum in PTS please.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
i have no military experience but i do have the right to talk about my views.


Yes, you do. We all agree on that. When you find yourself over there, fighting.. with the very people on this thread.. It's all foreign and out there. And you really start fighting for things. For things as small as voicing your own opinion, whether you served or not. For you. For me. And even for evil elves.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger

Winds of change are amiss in the Middle East, big time. The House of Saud had better change and change quick or they loose, if a stable Iraq is there, the US has no reason to defend Saud anymore, first time since the 50's folks that was even an option...


I feel you are right about this, but for the wrong reasons. I can understand why an election in the ME would have massive implications, but I am bof the opinion that the winds of change sweeping over the ME contain anti-American sentiments with it. These winds of change will affect every single ME nation and soon we the American people will see how they truly feel. I think the only thing most ME nations really see is American military belligerance. Im not saying that is how we are truly acting, its just how they see it.



What do I want out of this? Well for Iraq, to be stable and 'free'. Our brand of freedom? Not really, Arabs are different, but they are not stupid either and they know this is their chance....



Ed, for the saftey and security of the rest of the world I hope you are right. Otherwise, we may just be witnissing a slow procession into WW III.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 08:27 AM
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sorry. had some technical difficulties.....

double posted



[edit on 6/3/05 by EastCoastKid]



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 06:53 PM
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Very true, Kidfinger. The "winds of change" might end up blowing jihad right back in our faces. We have certainly started something.

As far as the House of Al Saud goes, Id be careful. Their opposition is not folks who want democracy and freedom, if the Al Sauds go, then they will be replaced by people who believe Bin Laden is Mohammed incarnate. Before we go around popping regimes out of office, we better make damn sure there is enough support for a more favorable replacement, which I can tell you, aint happening for at least a decade minimum. People over there do not wish to part with superstition and archaic cultural values, which is necessary for the beginning of stable, free governance and technological evolution. Radical Islam is the most popular game in town in the good ol kingdom. 53% of Saudis surveyed would vote for Bin Laden if given the chance.

The Saudi's did not have much choice in allowing women to come defend them. And believe me, did they ever bitch. When I was there, female soldiers were forbidden from driving and in Riyahd, had to wear the Abbaya. During the first gulf war, when women were driving all over the place, the Saudis were infuriated because it was sending the "wrong message" to their females. And of course, female soldiers were neither regarded nor spoken to by any Saudi liason: a male had to go and speak by proxy.

And trust me when I say the Saudi forces are a joke. Ive seen companies of supply clerks in the reserves who could mop the streets with them. They are incapable of taking on any real threats. I wont even go into the condition of their equipment.

Ill say it again, we need to be real careful about these winds of change. Blow away the old regime, and what you find waiting to take over might be worse than what you want to get rid of. We see this in Iraq. And well see it elsewhere if were not careful.....maybe someday, in our own skies and streets yet again.




posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Very true, Kidfinger. The "winds of change" might end up blowing jihad right back in our faces. We have certainly started something.

As far as the House of Al Saud goes, Id be careful. Their opposition is not folks who want democracy and freedom, if the Al Sauds go, then they will be replaced by people who believe Bin Laden is Mohammed incarnate. Before we go around popping regimes out of office, we better make damn sure there is enough support for a more favorable replacement, which I can tell you, aint happening for at least a decade minimum. People over there do not wish to part with superstition and archaic cultural values, which is necessary for the beginning of stable, free governance and technological evolution. Radical Islam is the most popular game in town in the good ol kingdom. 53% of Saudis surveyed would vote for Bin Laden if given the chance.

The Saudi's did not have much choice in allowing women to come defend them. And believe me, did they ever bitch. When I was there, female soldiers were forbidden from driving and in Riyahd, had to wear the Abbaya. During the first gulf war, when women were driving all over the place, the Saudis were infuriated because it was sending the "wrong message" to their females. And of course, female soldiers were neither regarded nor spoken to by any Saudi liason: a male had to go and speak by proxy.

And trust me when I say the Saudi forces are a joke. Ive seen companies of supply clerks in the reserves who could mop the streets with them. They are incapable of taking on any real threats. I wont even go into the condition of their equipment.

Ill say it again, we need to be real careful about these winds of change. Blow away the old regime, and what you find waiting to take over might be worse than what you want to get rid of. We see this in Iraq. And well see it elsewhere if were not careful.....maybe someday, in our own skies and streets yet again.



Read this again folks.

Based on my experience, every thing she said is spot on.

When I was there, I did not realize the extent of their hostility towards our female troops. The Saudis that my unit came into contact with were either completely caught off guard by our females, or just smiled limply and were polite.

By my accounts the Sauds of Arabia are lazy, spoiled rotten and completely effeminate.

Before the original Saud (of the House) killed the moderates throughout the entire land, that landmass had never consolidated into anything resembling a country of our time. They were a vast wasteland, a forsaken land, populated by nomadic peoples, tribes.

Enter WAHABBISM. Thank the House of Saud for that. Know this, M ibn Saud made Saddam Hussein, the secular Sunni, seem like a pretty decent fella.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Read this again folks.

Based on my experience, every thing she said is spot on.



Where I was at was no cakewalk, but Im glad I didnt have to spend time there. Sometimes I wonder exactly why we are protecting these guys. Then I remember all the oil there..............



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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Originally posted by KidfingerWhere I was at was no cakewalk, but Im glad I didnt have to spend time there. Sometimes I wonder exactly why we are protecting these guys. Then I remember all the oil there..............


And no matter how you see it that oil is YOUR livelyhood also.....the world runs on the stuff and economies live and die on the price (hence its sold in dollars).

As much as I dont like it, its a must for us to keep in 'control', for the world economy because in the 1980's we started the World Economy and believe it or not it works, but it has costs, and this is one of them.




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