"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

Because "they belive", that is very obvious.


To a believer, the one that doesn't believe is lost.


This is impossible to argue, because
the philosopher also argue that his
questioning is "enlightened" by his
quest for truth.


It's a cul-de-sac to try determinate who
gets the full effect.

The philosopher might reject the lessons
and rituals, but who cares, if what he finds
truly enlightening is the policy
of "humanitarian assurance" that the masons
"promiss".


(I put all under brackets
because Plato would)


Cedric Phirmament

Originally posted by Centiment
To a believer, the one that doesn't believe is lost.

That is not always true, it takes a very fanatical kind of "believer" to be so arrogant as to believe that his beliefs are any more valid that someone else's. One particular member of this forum comes to mind, and he hides his arrogant faith under the pretense of "Truth".

The philosopher might reject the lessons and rituals, but who cares, if what he finds truly enlightening is the policy of "humanitarian assurance" that the masons "promiss".

Look, it's obvious that a person will believe what they want to believe, and Freemasonry's lessons can have an impact on anyone who truly wants to be affected by the experience. But there is still something to be said for possessing the beliefs which Freemasonry's lessons were designed to complement.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

It takes a very fanatical kind of "believer" to be so arrogant as to believe that his beliefs are any more valid that someone else's.
and....... Freemasonry is simply an organization that teaches a man to follow his own individual faith, whatever it may be.

I really like to see this said, and particularly by you. This thread has been my initial attempt to find out a bit about the Freemason's and I see a lot of misconceptions and half truths get tossed around on this topic as well. I had no idea.............

I think you can see how strange some of this could seem to the people that only read the mis-information.
I must admit that I have not read the entire thread (this is a long one) but worked through enough to get the point, and intend to backtrack to read more.
I'll also follow up on the links you suggested in another thread.

We have more in common than it first appeared.



Edit to add second line of quote...

[edit on 10-7-2005 by anxietydisorder]

I really like to see this said, and particularly by you. This thread has been my initial attempt to find out a bit about the Freemason's and I see a lot of misconceptions and half truths get tossed around on this topic as well. I had no idea.............

It's not surprising, really. Plausible information on the Freemasons are quite rare in this forum. Since a majority of the content is Anti - Masonry trash which is barely worth skimming through.

I think you can see how strange some of this could seem to the people that only read the mis-information.
I must admit that I have not read the entire thread (this is a long one) but worked through enough to get the point, and intend to backtrack to read more.
I'll also follow up on the links you suggested in another thread.

We have more in common than it first appeared.

The posts in this thread are nothing more than popcorn entertainment. Seeing the arguments of antis bedunked and slaughtered by the Masons are amusing.

And does your god makes a difference between
mason and not-mason ?



I am neither pro or anti masons,
I discuss the pros and cons.


Cedric

Originally posted by anxietydisorder
I really like to see this said, and particularly by you. This thread has been my initial attempt to find out a bit about the Freemason's and I see a lot of misconceptions and half truths get tossed around on this topic as well. I had no idea.............

I think most people would be surprised if they would stop sticking to their guns and just surrendered themselves to the fact that Freemasonry is not what many people mistakenly believe. I'm glad to see that people, not just you, are starting to get the right idea.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I think most people would be surprised if they would stop sticking to their guns and just surrendered themselves to the fact that Freemasonry is not what many people mistakenly believe.

Aw c'mon Seb,

To do that would be to admit that it's simply a fraternity that allows men to find their own truth (that is IF they care to look for it). They don't want to even THINK that there's no mind-control, no brain-washing, no world domination, etc. etc. Why to accept Freemasonry for what it REALLY is would be boring to sensationalists and conspiracy theorists. They NEED to believe that it's something entirely different to compensate for the fact that in their current position they're not worthy to pass through the doors of the Lodge, let alone understand what it's truly about.

Originally posted by senrak
Why to accept Freemasonry for what it REALLY is would be boring to sensationalists and conspiracy theorists. They NEED to believe that it's something entirely different to compensate for the fact that in their current position they're not worthy to pass through the doors of the Lodge, let alone understand what it's truly about.

Actually, I think that MANY of these dorks could indeed pass for decent human beings if it weren't for their closed minds and blatant ignorance.

Why to accept Freemasonry for what it REALLY is would be boring to sensationalists and conspiracy theorists.

it doesn't seem to be something thats easily defined, and yes the way you describe it is boring "find the truth" hahah, at least be realistic and say its somewhere to meet business contacts.

Originally posted by loserkage
at least be realistic and say its somewhere to meet business contacts.

It isn't. Most people that join Freemasonry to do this soon leave because the fraternity fails to meet their expectations. Trust me, I've seen it happen MANY times. I know very few Freemasons who have profited professionally and financially through Freemasonry.

The 3 problems of masonry:


- the politics of oath-bound fraternity


- the necessity to symbolize knowledge


- the elitist closeting of esotery




It's confused...

People like me who are interested
by "esoterics", philosophies,
and politics, have a hard time
with the obscurantist approache
("you shall be initiated") or
overt used of truly unneccessary symbolism.
("I give you this mallet...which will permit you
to maintain temporal order in the lodge" etc...)

Stuff like that...



How do you react when you see kids in
the school recreation aera making gangs ?
Oath-Bound Fraternity is a nice word for Mafia,
It is a politically unsafe environment.

all this brought together by people claiming
to be gentlemen providing charities ?



Then...the masons use a lot of superficial
apparats that makes them seem
like snobbing the rest of
the esoteric community.


They teach kaballistics and
other esoteric points (divine proportion)
through their own terms and symbols,
as though they invented all this.


Then they confused all religious believers
by pretending that anyone can get in freemasonry
if they believe in a supreme being, while
not warning them that they also need to believe
in certain concepts of esotery. That sounds dishonest
to my ears.


But who cares ? Since in the end
the overt use of symbols make the masonic
lessons sound more like a playful mythology
that you don't need to wholly embrace,
like perpetuating a tradition for
the pure scheme of bonding with
other individuals.



Why would people interested by esotery
need to go though all these schoolkid
initiations ?

Than...why would men who in fact
NEED these oaths and initiations in order to
fullfill a sentiment of belonging with
a community of do-gooders,
need all the esoteric fla-fla ?



It's normal that masons are disappointed
and leave: no one knows what they are in for
when they enter !


What about an hierarchical army where the soldier
at the bottom fights without knowing what they fight for ???


For the good of humanity ?

Humanity and secret societies can't function.

Secret societies exists at the base because
either they are victims of a malvolent humanity
(they protect themselves) or they have bad intentions.


There is no sense of a functioning society
that is filled with secret societies.

That does not go hand in hand.


Al-Qeada, that is a secret society.

All muslim people suffer from it.



Cedric Phi

I dont understand people like you. has freemasonry hurt you. were you not admitted. is a bad family member a mason or something. why that hate?

anyway, im turning in my ea proficiency this comming monday and then i should be passed to fellow craft, im very excited. joining freemasonry has been one of the best decisions ive made.

i was burned pretty badly as a child and was admitted into a shriners burn hospital. my family didnt have to pay for anything and becuase of the shriners help i didnt have to have my leg amputated. the shriners are masons. how can you say that they are not good for humanity and society. what have you experiences been.

you accuse us of using snobby language and being elitist.

have you read your post? it is both snobby and elitist.

the fact of the matter is; to each their own. do what makes you happy.

if you have a problem with masonry thats fine. but theres no reason to bash it. just like theres no reason to bash anyones beliefs.

>>>>>why that hate?


Many masons, including here, are hateful people
in the first place.

You wouldn't believe the amount of insults coming out of masonic mouths on this forum.


I don't think that I "hate" masonry.

On the contrary, I believe that masonry belongs
to the people and hence, is entitled to be reformed.


I envision a reform of masonry that would
make it better than it is now, and kill the
unneccessary fights happening here.

They are alienating aspects to masonry
but these can't be seen by those
who embrace it as it is, thinking that
it doesn't need to be changed.


Masonry wasn't created by God,
as far as I know. It is
a society created by human kind,
and humans have the power to
alter what they have created.



>>>>how can you say that they are not good for humanity and society.


They use money power provided by fanbase to bypass systems of democracy. They work using the beehive system, which is not democratic.


If people gave the money to society instead of the freemasons,
they could also build their hospitals.

Without endoctinating their patients.



>>>>it is both snobby and elitist


I am snob and elitist. I just don't use it against the people.
I believe in Plato.


If you have the pretention to see how you can turn
already existing systems into better systems,
than let it know. You at least have a right to express it
(though here sharing an opinion is often equalled with
a term caled "trolling").


So...I am thinking that for people who aim
at becoming better people, the masons
rarely ever consider turning their systems
into a better system.


There is no need for these quarrels.


As it is the masonry is not bereft of being
used for bad intentions. That is pure
hypothesis, perhaps, but nonetheless,
a proof that the system has failures.
Because for all great intention, the system
imitates a dictatorial structure. It's a beehive.


Trust me:


You can change that structure and keep the Shriners altogether.


That is what I'm trying to say,


Cedric Phi
















[edit on 14-7-2005 by Centiment]

Originally posted by Centiment
Many masons, including here, are hateful people in the first place.

You wouldn't believe the amount of insults coming out of masonic mouths on this forum.

Why? Because we don't tolerate your senseless posts? That means we are hateful? We have insulted you in no way. If one of us has, I would like for you to provide me with the quote, please.

On the contrary, I believe that masonry belongs to the people and hence, is entitled to be reformed.

Freemasonry belongs to Freemasons! Nobody else. What in the WORLD makes you think that Freemasonry belongs to the people?!? It is a private organization, and belongs to nobody but its members. You are absolutely outrageous.

>>>>I would like for you to provide me with the quote, please.


I'd be rich for each dime received for when you treat someone stupid, sebat.




>>>What in the WORLD makes you think that Freemasonry belongs to the >>>people?!?




The fact that anyone can become one.



And who presides this mafia, anyway ?

Who is the living pope of masonry ?



The knowledge of freemasonry doesn't belong
to freemasonry. Only your symbols.


You don't have the copyright on divine proportion.



Cedric Phi (laughing, actually)

Originally posted by Centiment
I'd be rich for each dime received for when you treat someone stupid, sebat.

I only point out certain observations, but I never insult for the sake of hurting someone. Please provide a quote to demonstrate otherwise.

>>>What in the WORLD makes you think that Freemasonry belongs to the >>>people?!?

The fact that anyone can become one.

Not, not anyone can become one. Atheists, women, children, elderly, felons and "irreligious libertines" need not apply.

And who presides this mafia, anyway ?

Who is the living pope of masonry ?

Each and every member presides over the Craft.

The knowledge of freemasonry doesn't belong to freemasonry. Only your symbols. You don't have the copyright on divine proportion.

Never said we did, but we certainly have a monopoly over the experience of becoming and being a Freemason. This is the true secret of Freemasonry. It is what creates our bond and changes our lives.

>>>>>>I never insult for the sake of hurting someone.


What a sweet tear-jerking monk moment.



>>>>Who is the living pope of masonry ?

>>>>>Each and every member presides over the Craft.




Pfff...you are laughing at my face Pouhahahahah.



>>>>elderly



Lol...I didn't know freemasons banned their parents from entering.


Reform ! Reform !



>>>>>This is the true secret of Freemasonry.


There is no secret to masonry but the bond.
It's a goddamn union. It's ridiculous to call it a secret.



Cedric Phi

Originally posted by Centiment
What a sweet tear-jerking monk moment.

Pfff...you are laughing at my face Pouhahahahah.

Lol...I didn't know freemasons banned their parents from entering. Reform ! Reform !

And you wonder why I don't take you seriously...?

>>>And you wonder why I don't take you seriously...?



Mr. Big Bitch, they are grand lodges in this world
that decide what may or may not be officialized by fremasonry.


Don.t bring me crap about each member presiding over craft.


Lol !


Cedric Phi

Originally posted by Centiment
Mr. Big Bitch, they are grand lodges in this world
that decide what may or may not be officialized by fremasonry.

Don.t bring me crap about each member presiding over craft.

Actually, EVERY member in the Craft gets exactly ONE (1) vote. This is not crap, it's absolutely true. In each jurisdiction (note that Freemasonry is split up into hundreds of jurisdictions who have ultimate authority over how Freemasonry works in that jurisdiction), each mason in that jurisdiction gets exactly one vote on ALL matters. This is completely and absolutely true.

You just lost your warned status. You must really want a moderator to hit you again with that "Big Bitch" comment. Real mature, dude.