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"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

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posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Handled via u2u.




posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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I can't believe this is even still on the first page...

Cent, what you have to realize is that Grand Lodges only have authority in their respective jurisdictions. There is no governing body for the whole of Freemasonry. Like Seb said, every Master Mason gets a vote, and if memory serves every lodge gets three votes (JW, SW, and WM) to represent them at Grand Lodge.

Your posts are very conservatively sprinkled with good points, but for the most part you seem to only want to antagonize, poke fun, and insult a Fraternity which it is obvious you know little about.

On a side note, you said your uncle was a Rosicrucian. I'm curious; to which Order did he belong?

You said that you gained much wisdom in regard to the Mysteries from the materials you (*ahem* illegally) obtained... So if this is true, I would think that it would give you more respect for institutions such as Masonry, rather than this bone you seem to have to pick with them. Just an observation...



posted on Jul, 14 2005 @ 10:39 PM
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Would anyone here really prefer been called "stupid" rather than "bitch" ?


Because that expression, or similar expressions, are rampant in
this capharneaum of intellectual dishonesty.



>>>>each mason in that jurisdiction gets exactly one vote on ALL matters.


They are already existing mixed-lodges, as someone just told me elsewhere.


They aren't official, or recognized.


There is an authority that decides this.

If all jurisdictions vote, there's an authority that decide what matters are to be voted for.



>>>>There is no governing body for the whole of Freemasonry.


Than why are mixed-lodges non-officialized ?

Who officializes a lodge ????




>>>to represent them at Grand Lodge.


Ok...thanks for finally answering the "right" way.



>>>antagonize, poke fun, and insult a Fraternity which it is obvious you >>>know little about.


I've read lots. They are things that make sense and some that don't.

I criticize the lack of self-criticism in masonry.


Some masons believe that masonry is fraternity.
That is the first idea that get to them.


Some others think of masonry as the esoteric knowledge
they get from it. That is the first idea that get to them.

Some believe that one and the other are inseparable.
That masonry knowledge (what you are finally able
to understand once you got rid of the symbols,
when you are able to signify their meanings) is
loosing all meaning once it is outside the masonry.



I juggle with this and try to make sense
of it. It's really really tough I gotta say.


I think a "buddhist" can be "buddhist"
without being a "buddhist".


If you can decipher what I mean:
take the philosophy and knowledge but reject
the dogmas related to iconography, traditions,
nouns, laws, and history.


I also believe that a "mason" can be "mason"
without being a "mason".


That is why I believe in a school
that kills the...I repeat...iconography (symbols),
traditions, nouns, laws, and history.

And still respect the knowledge
and its application.


Of course you can't get rid of all symbols
(you can't practice astrology
without the implemented meanings behind
the symbols), but the astrological symbols
are used as language, for pragmatic reason,
like mathematic symbols, and not venered
in any sort of ways.






>>>I'm curious; to which Order did he belong?


I've seen amorc.
I never bothered to decipher which
order. They seem like in their little thing.

Masons tell often openly that they are.
I don't know why rosis are so secret.
I think they are shy because their esoteric
beliefs are sometimes over the top.


>>>You said that you gained much wisdom


The best wisdom I get is from Dyogene, Kant, Schopenhauer,
David Hall, Shrodinger, Joseph Beuys, some Of Jesus, Tibetan books,
Michel Foucault, Michel Onfray.....the name-drop could go on.


Without them I couldn't indulge in esotery with lucidity.

Esotery is a take-some leave-some affair with me.
The tarot is wise if you are able to understand it.
But as a method of teaching it is not wise.




>>>> the materials you (*ahem* illegally) obtained...


Illegally ? Where are you coming with that ?
Not really. The esoteric library was
personally dedicated.



>>>> more respect for institutions such as Masonry

I would already prefer if masons worked by invitation only.


They are big differences.

Masons become masons not knowing what is up.


Rosis know what they are getting into.



But yes...I think the medieval nostalgia
has limits. It was a dark age, not an age
of enlightment.



If nobody asks questions anymore,
if nobody doubt, then we are getting endoctrinated
by dogmas, and that is not a good sign.

It's a wonder how the Church itself as evolved,
with all the oppositions it met when people brought
new ideas.


I sound like I despise masonry, but in fact I like
the best stuff about it, that means, what is left once
you get rid of secrets, oaths, and the dubious
social insurgence of fraternity.


Accepting everything as facts is not
trusting people's power to change things.



Cedric Phi



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by Centiment
Would anyone here really prefer been called "stupid" rather than "bitch" ?


Either way you are insulting for the swake of insulting, so it's the same thing.




They are already existing mixed-lodges, as someone just told me elsewhere.


They aren't official, or recognized.


There is an authority that decides this.

If all jurisdictions vote, there's an authority that decide what matters are to be voted for.


All jurisdictions vote on matters that affect that particular jurisdiction. For example, the Grand Lodge of Texas would not vote on Grand Lodge of Arizona issues, and so on. The "authority" that decides what gets voted on is, again, the membership, by way of motions and seconds, if I understand correctly.




>>>>There is no governing body for the whole of Freemasonry.


Than why are mixed-lodges non-officialized ?

Who officializes a lodge ????


In order for a lodge to be recognized, it must have a charter from the Grand Lodge for the jurisdiction in which it is Working.


>>>to represent them at Grand Lodge.


Ok...thanks for finally answering the "right" way.


I answer honestly, to the best of my ability. If that is the wrong way, well then OK. Whatever. It seems to me when you don't like an answer, then that is the "wrong" way.



>>>antagonize, poke fun, and insult a Fraternity which it is obvious you >>>know little about.


I've read lots. They are things that make sense and some that don't.

I criticize the lack of self-criticism in masonry.


There is plenty of self-criticism in Masonry. Just check out the Masonic discussion forums and see for yourself.

Just because there might not be the same criticisms you are making doesn't mean there aren't any. Frankly, the criticisms you make are rather trivial.




Some masons believe that masonry is fraternity.
That is the first idea that get to them.

Some others think of masonry as the esoteric knowledge
they get from it. That is the first idea that get to them.

Some believe that one and the other are inseparable.
That masonry knowledge (what you are finally able
to understand once you got rid of the symbols,
when you are able to signify their meanings) is
loosing all meaning once it is outside the masonry.


I'm not quite sure what you are getting at... It has been maintained that Masonry is different things to different people. No one has denied this. You get out of Masonry what you put into Masonry. Get it?



I think a "buddhist" can be "buddhist"
without being a "buddhist".


If you can decipher what I mean:
take the philosophy and knowledge but reject
the dogmas related to iconography, traditions,
nouns, laws, and history.


I also believe that a "mason" can be "mason"
without being a "mason".


I would have to agree with this assertion.



That is why I believe in a school
that kills the...I repeat...iconography (symbols),
traditions, nouns, laws, and history.

And still respect the knowledge
and its application.


It's about tradition, I think. The Mysteries have ALWAYS been conveyed and taught using symbols. Furthermore, anyone inclined to look can find the Truth on their own, without the help of Fraternal Orders or symbolism.


>>>> the materials you (*ahem* illegally) obtained...


Illegally ? Where are you coming with that ?
Not really. The esoteric library was
personally dedicated.


I mean that you are not initiated, and as far as the Order itself is concerned, you "illegaly" obtained the materials you have... i.e. you did not acquire them in the traditional way, by initiation.


>>>> more respect for institutions such as Masonry

I would already prefer if masons worked by invitation only.


Why? Why do you care?


Masons become masons not knowing what is up.


They should. Going into something without knowing what you are getting yourself into isn't smart.


Rosis know what they are getting into.


How? In this regard, I think all Fraternal Orders are the same. You can learn enough from the outside to know what you are getting in to, but that's it. The knowledge and rituals of the orders are reserved for Initiates.

www.amorc.org...



I sound like I despise masonry, but in fact I like
the best stuff about it, that means, what is left once
you get rid of secrets, oaths, and the dubious
social insurgence of fraternity.


Then you like Knowledge. Nothing wrong with that, but why must you denigrate the way others choose to work with that Knowledge?


Accepting everything as facts is not
trusting people's power to change things.


Not sure what you mean here... Could you please clarify?



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by Centiment
They are already existing mixed-lodges, as someone just told me elsewhere.

They aren't official, or recognized.


Right. Because, like I explained to you, these lodges violated one of the LANDMARKS of Freemasonry.



There is an authority that decides this.

If all jurisdictions vote, there's an authority that decide what matters are to be voted for.


Right, and this governing body is made up of elected officials voted in for one year terms to represent all of the Freemasons in that jurisdiction. But ALL voting is done directly, not through representatives. This means that on all issues, each lodge holds a vote and then sends their vote to the Grand Lodge for a final vote.

Issues are brought forth by others. A Master cannot put forth his own motion.



>>>>There is no governing body for the whole of Freemasonry.

Than why are mixed-lodges non-officialized ?

Who officializes a lodge ????


RECOGNITION is the process by which "legal" masonic bodies recognize each other as being a legal entity. There is no governing body, but the Grand Lodges of all jurisdictions have an agreed-upon protocol for recognizing each other as being legal. If a lodge is not recognized by a legal masonic body, then it is clandestine.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 12:42 PM
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>>>Either way you are insulting for the swake of insulting, so it's the same >>>>thing.


I attract insults like mosquitoes.



>>>In order for a lodge to be recognized, it must have a charter from the >>>>Grand Lodge for the jurisdiction in which it is Working.



Does a mixed lodge becomes worldwide officialized if officialized by one of the official grand lodge. (I insist on the term official)



>>It has been maintained that Masonry is different things to different >>>people. No one has denied this. You get out of Masonry what you put >>>into Masonry. Get it?


Well, it seems to me (from many of this site repliers) that not a lot of humanitarian moral is put into masonry. Oh well...



>>>anyone inclined to >>>look can find the Truth on their own, without >>>the help of Fraternal Orders or symbolism.


That makes a lot of sense.



>>>you did not acquire them in the traditional way, by initiation.


I think my uncle had me in mind though (they have to select an invite,
don't they ?).


If there is any people in very secret sects here: keep in mind
that your family discover your stuff at your death.

If that is the bottom of the story.


Apart from a couple objects, most books can be found anywhere,
that is no big secrets.



>>>>>Why? Why do you care?


That is my little secret.;-)



>>>why must you denigrate the way others choose to work with that >>>Knowledge?



Power and alienation.




>>>>Could you please clarify?

Buy the book "Massive Change" by Bruce Mau.

I think my sentance got influenced by it.



>>>>LANDMARKS of Freemasonry.


Who can change a landmark ?




>>>each lodge holds a vote and then sends their vote to the Grand Lodge >>>for a final vote.


There is a pinpoint of democracy in there that is hopeful.



>>>>>then it is clandestine.


I think that if a mixed lodge becomes "big enough" and install a lot of great hospitals, it will become problematic to refuse their official status.


Hmmm....

Maybe in 2025.


Cheers,


Cedric Phi



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:05 PM
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Masonry itself is not good or evil. It is merely a vehicle.

And it can take you where you want to go.

Now, looking at the kind of people who have been Freemasons, unaccepted, irregular and otherwise, why would you choose to use such a vehicle?

Because even history itself has failed to remove its front, in fact, serving to further the mystery?

So I ask, is intrigue really a sufficient reason to associate yourself with so many men you will never get to know, and so many, that you really don't want to?



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:10 PM
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Akilles check this out: Look at the board, in this thread you were the 666th reply.

What could that possibly mean?





posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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It means I have good timing.

And that as usual, there are far fewer accidents than we imagine.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
So I ask, is intrigue really a sufficient reason...


No. It's not. In fact, candidates are told that if it is intrigue or curiosity that brings them to the lodge, that they had best turn back.

This was recently discussed in conjunction with the acronym V.I.T.R.I.O.L.

LMAO Intrepid, you beat me to it.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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Next question, how can you join on the assumption that "it makes good men better"?

How does history allow this expression?



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
How does history allow this expression?


Why wouldn't it? It is, for the VAST majority of Masons, absolutely true.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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If I had 12 kids, and they were the only living
humans on earth, would I want some
of them to start a fraternity ?


Most living people are living for their own security and sad little selves. They don't care about implementing systems that would benefit to everyone equally for the future generations.


I salute the Robin Hood of masonry, whover that is.


The guy who took from masonry and gave it to the people.


The "dumbed down masses" as someone referred to on another
thread that was terminated.



Simply starting a mixed lodge is going in the right way.
Women have less ego than men, I think they can balance
something.



Cedric


"The Ego Of Man Works Against The Homeostasis Of Nature"



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
Now, looking at the kind of people who have been Freemasons, unaccepted, irregular and otherwise, why would you choose to use such a vehicle?

So I ask, is intrigue really a sufficient reason to associate yourself with so many men you will never get to know, and so many, that you really don't want to?


Right, because SO MANY bad men have been Freemasons. Give it a rest. A person who joins masonry is Joining a society that has had a membership of some of the greatest men the world has ever know: Washington, Franklin, Churchill, Mozart, Shakespeare, Goethe, Wayne, etc the list goes on and on.

But joining Freemasonry does not mean you are associating yourself with anybody. Just because you are a christian, does this mean that you have asociated yourself with every other christian in the world, good or bad? Your logic, as usual, is severely flawed.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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That is not true Sebatwerk.


Joining a political party means you associate
with that party.


If Freemasonry can't be defined
by one philosophy than it becomes the philosophy
of confusion.


Everybody agrees to the confusion.


Cedric



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by Centiment
>>>>LANDMARKS of Freemasonry.

Who can change a landmark ?


Nobody. That's the point. These landmarks are unchangeable as far as Freemasonry is concerned. You cannot change what Freemasonry IS and then still have it be Freemasonry.



>>>each lodge holds a vote and then sends their vote to the Grand Lodge >>>for a final vote.

There is a pinpoint of democracy in there that is hopeful.


Freemasons invented the democratic system of America. Is this such a surprise?



>>>>>then it is clandestine.

I think that if a mixed lodge becomes "big enough" and install a lot of great hospitals, it will become problematic to refuse their official status.


No it won't. MANY large lodges, and even men, have been refused official status as masonic.

Can I ask you one thing:

CAN YOU PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP SPREADING YOUR POSTS OUT SO DAMN MUCH!?!?



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Centiment

If I had 12 kids, and they were the only living
humans on earth, would I want some
of them to start a fraternity ?


I dunno. Would you?



Most living people are living for their own security and sad little selves. They don't care about implementing systems that would benefit to everyone equally for the future generations.


Agreed. There are all too many of those types of people in the world.



I salute the Robin Hood of masonry, whover that is.

The guy who took from masonry and gave it to the people.


Funny how the "Robin Hoods" you refer to are only interested in selling books or getting back at Masons who they may feel have wronged them by not admitting them to the Fraternity. It's a private organization; they have every right to keep to themselves. Besides, the kind of Knowledge that is taught by Freemasonry and the Mystery Schools of the world is not the kind that is freely given to anyone. It is only for those who seek it out. THAT is the difference.

Also, Freemasons give of their own accord, and don't steal from anyone to do it. Better than Robin Hood, IMHO.



The "dumbed down masses" as someone referred to on another
thread that was terminated.


I didn't say that, I said that religion has historically been "dumbed down" (and I added for lack of a better term, BTW), so that the principles are accessible even to those who might not have the intellectual ability to grasp the finer points and more grandiose concepts. You know as well as I do that Yoiu are twisting my words to fit what you want to use them for. It's a tired tactic, frankly.





Simply starting a mixed lodge is going in the right way.
Women have less ego than men, I think they can balance
something.


Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I tend to agree with you on some levels; however, I can see why women are not allowed in Masonry as well; the reasons are many, and all valid IMO. Do I think it could be different? Sure. Do I think it should be different? Not really.

Freemasonry has been the way it is for centuries, and it works for those who work at it. The phrase "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind.



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

I salute the Robin Hood of masonry, whover that is.

The guy who took from masonry and gave it to the people.


Funny how the "Robin Hoods" you refer to are only interested in selling books or getting back at Masons who they may feel have wronged them by not admitting them to the Fraternity.


Not only that, but the only thing these "Robin Hoods" have given out is Freemasonry's passwords and handshakes! All other masonic esoteric knowledge is available to ANYONE who takes the time to buy a book.

As I've said MANY times, the ONLY secrets Freemasonry keeps to itself are the modes of recognition between masons (handshakes and passwords), so what exactly do these "Robin Hoods" do that is so noble?!?



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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This phrase:
>>>>Freemasons invented the democratic system of America. Is this such a surprise?



Said right after::

>>>>You cannot change what Freemasonry >>>>IS and then still have it be Freemasonry.


Dogma VS Democracy.



>>>>>No it won't.


Better save the landmarks of freemasonry than acknowledge a mixed lodge that would implement large hospitals. You are heartless.



>>>>CAN YOU PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP SPREADING YOUR POSTS OUT >>>>>SO DAMN MUCH!?!?



Mayyyyyyyyyyybe once I reach your own quota ?




>>>>I dunno. Would you?


Selon Marx, No.




>>>>the kind of Knowledge that is taught by Freemasonry and the >>>>Mystery Schools of the world is not the kind that is freely given to anyone.



That does not make any sense.

Anyone can learn the kabbal, and that type of stuff.
Even Madonna.


>>>so that the principles are accessible even to those who might not have >>>>the intellectual ability to grasp the finer points and more grandiose >>>>concepts.


Intellectual ability ??? It has much more to do with faith !!

There is nothing that darn complicated about masonry once
you get to "de-empuzzle" the symbols.


It's not the study of neutrinos.


>>>>Yoiu are twisting my words

Well maybe I confused your term with a Pike quote, sorry.



>>>>Do I think it should be different? Not really.


But if one I day I bring you evidence that they are many (not just mr. ignorant me) who believe that there should be a difference, that is when
the "real war" begins, basically.


Personally I think people are waking up
to masonry, thanks to fiction, book, art, etc...


I think it will be a topic of the future filled with controversy.
Unless there is a dramatical reduction of candidates.



Cedric Phi



posted on Jul, 15 2005 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Centiment
Dogma VS Democracy.


You still don't get it, do you? Freemasonry is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATION. Get it through your head.



Better save the landmarks of freemasonry than acknowledge a mixed lodge that would implement large hospitals.


That's what Freemasonry is. If you don't like it, don't join.



You are heartless.


No, I'm not. I'm actually a VERY generous person. But you fail to realize that Freemasonry is what it is and that will not change. Freemasons don't want it to change. As a matter of fact, many Freemasons resent the changes that have occurred in the past 30 years, and that is why there is such a big push to go back to a "traditional" form of Freemasonry.

You need to stop whining about Freemasonry and quit acting like it owes you something. You are not a Freemason and therefore are not entitled to ANYTHING which you have requested/ demanded. For the last time, Freemasonry is a PRIVATE organization that asks NOTHING of outsiders, so quit asking of it.

[edit on 15-7-2005 by sebatwerk]





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