Originally posted by zman
You say President Bush is a mason , he may well be but I have a skull and cross bones pin myself.

First of all, Bush is NOT, I repeat (again), is NOT a Mason. Furthermore, I challenge you to show me a post where ANY mason or pro-Mason on this board has ever said so. Good luck.

Secondly, are you saying you are a member of Skull & Bones?

Finally, it would be helpful if you designated who you are talking to, because the term "you" is a bit ambiguous at best.

I have called you nothing, I have labeled you nothing. I have askjed questions of you, to which I still have gotten NO ANSWERS. This is a tactic I have seen here many times, and frankly it is rather annoying.

[edit on 5/25/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by zman
You asked me for explainations concerning why Freemasons are a cult . I showed not only you , but everyone who reads these post.

NO YOU DIDNT!!!!! You only showed what the site says regarding Freemasonry being incompatible with Christianity. You did nothing but re-state your opinion that Freemasonry is a cult. You have got to be the worst person to have an argument with in the world! EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK FREEMASONRY IS A CULT!

You have not shown me why you are not a cult.

We don't have to! You are the one makinng the claims! The burden of proof rests on your shoulders! EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK FREEMASONRY IS A CULT!

if I did find out that Freemasons are a cult , Which I did

No you didnt! You only stated your opinion about 10 times! EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK FREEMASONRY IS A CULT!

For what you post and dissect is not what freemasonary is about , and you know I am right.

You are not right, and you are als not a mason, so it is not your place to make such claims. EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK FREEMASONRY IS A CULT!

Originally posted by The Axeman
I have askjed questions of you, to which I still have gotten NO ANSWERS. This is a tactic I have seen here many times, and frankly it is rather annoying.

Zman is purposely avoiding the questions we ask him, specifically to give us his resons for believeing that Freemasonry is a cult, because he does not know. It's real convenient for him to simply ignore these questions but keep makinng the same claim, he's a typical troll... and a bad one at that.

Originally posted by zman
At last, more compelling evidence has come in that strengthens the intimate ties between the two cults of Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science to the cult of Freemasonry.

Boy you go away for a week and things change............. NOT.

I haven't caught up on everything yet BUT this just screamed to be replied to.

Do you know anything about JW's? I do. They want NO part of this "system", that includes Masonry.

A little research goes a looooooooooooooong way.

half of what you have stated is not true
[edit on 24-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Either prove anything I said is not true or save your virtual breath.

Freemaosonry is a private organization that owes you no explanation whatsoever

You ask why people are suspcious of Freemasonry? Well theres your answer. This is a cop out and makes you look bad my dear friend. But I didn't expect more from you.

Originally posted by Modulok
Either prove anything I said is not true or save your virtual breath.

You stated that Freemasonry is:

1.) "an international male-only secret society that dresses in funny costumes"

Actually, Freemasonry uses no constumes whatsoever. During degrees, however, some members dress up as king Solomon or some other historical character. They are in no way unusual.

2.) has secret handshakes

True. Although they are not very secret as they can be found in many exposes in books and websites.

3.) is obsessed with geometry

Freemasonry is not obsessed with geometry. It is important, because geometry was important to operative masons, but nobody is OBSESSED with it. It is an underlying theme, though.

4.) Jewish legends

True.

5.) pagan symbolism

Not exactly. MOST religions make use of pagan symbolism. MOST of Freemasonry's symbols come from operative masonry and king Solomon's temple. All others have origins from the old testament, which could be said to have pagan origins.


6.) the Knights Templar

Not true. The ONLY time where the Templars are mentioned in Freemasonry is in the knights templar degree of the York Rite appendant body.

7.) has often had an overlapping relationship with the Rosicrucians, Jesuits, and the Bavarian Illuminati

Individual masons have had relationships with such, but Freemasonry as an institution has done no such thing. It's like saying that the Catholic church has a taste for pedophilia, when really it is just individual priests who have done so.

that represents a fraction of the population yet has played a signicant yet intentionally obscured role in an incredibly wide-range of major historical movements, events and governments demands explanation? Yes I do.

This is a cop out and makes you look bad my dear friend. But I didn't expect more from you.

This is no cop out, it's the truth. Maybe individual masons have some explaining to do regarding certain events in history, but they owe this explanation as public officers and such, not as masons. They were not acting on behalf of the fraternity, as I have said before, and that is why freemasonry owes you no explanation.

Freemasonry has never dealt with ANY group of people except its own members. There is no political, social, economic involvement on the part of the organization AT ALL. Individual masons are a different story.

Therefore it is YOU that looks bad, by attempting to pin blame on an organization that has never had anything to do with what you claim. THAT is a cheap cop-out, as you are merely finding a convenient scapegoat for your twisted accusations.

So what is with the heavy anti Masonic folklore and mentality you ask, in the original post.

It's very simple: A need to believe in something.

To have wishful thinking makes people feel like their ordinary lives are made more fulfilling. This is why we have esoteric institutions like religion. The need to believe in something whatever its true origins are.

In understanding the anti Freemason ideas, one has to discover a whole web of things. Usually a lot of anti Freemasonry thought comes froma staunch pro Christian background. Since a lot of Freemasonry doesnt really care what religion you are, the need to amplify the insidious becomes neccesary.

Now what do I mean by that? Well, in researching Freemasons you get two roads: The anti Mason and the pro Mason. You hardly ever get a warts and all historical account. The problem with an accurate historical account is that the anti Masons would use the negative to say 'a ha!' However, by keeping a more sterile account of Freemasonry it makes it seem disengenuous.

The fact is, through popular culture(From Hell, 'Stonecutters' episode of Simpsons, various video games, comic books) Freemasons are buzzword fodder to this day with the whole "New World Order" and conspiracy buff jargon. I'm willing to bet that most anti's see the average Freemason as just an older guy doing charity...as much as they say "it's a front! And only the upper echelon know whats *really* going on!"

Freemasonry compared to the Bilderberger meetings, etc just isnt very secret. People try to say "look, they have their cryptic symbols in important places!" like a lot of DC, Denver Airport, etc. How many high positioned people have been Masons, or affiliated. You get folks saying Disney is under Mason control!(Walt who was a De Molay, and has the secret club 33 under Disneyland) Again, people just want a good story.

It seems no matter how many Masons say that the modern Masonry is just about comradery and charity, there will be those who say that its all a front for secret world control or who knows what. Why is it that whenever ya go to a conspiracy site it obligatorily leads to UFO's, Bush being a reptillian and all that stuff? If the anti Masons wanted to lend credit to what they are saying, why the cliche UFO-NWO-CIA stuff?

Finally, I want to say this..I respect the institution of what FreeMasons epouse, but I think perhaps it'd be important to layout the negatives as well. Through non conspriacy/historical books and research there does indeed seem to be a temporary Illuminati influence, various bad people who were of a high Mason degree, and Masons as a smaller governing body involved in some questionable politics. That said, the same can be applied to Catholicism or Protestant Christianity.

So I like to keep an open mind...yes, to the outside some Masonic things may seem pretty cryptic and eoteric, contrary to the teachings of ones own faith...and yes, a lot of bad prominent people were Masons, but I also believe that Masons in their present incarnation are for the most part a good fabric of society. I mean conspiracy buffs like to even taint the Shriners...the Shriners! The guys who help kids with hospitals. Saying the oriign of the Fez is a murderous seige against Catholics in Morroco and whatnot. When ya start picking on guys in clown cars who do charity, thats pretty low.

I do believe there is an obvious "new world order" type of thing going on, it's obvious...but it seems like the Freemasons would actually be against the harmful effects it is causing.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by zman
At last, more compelling evidence has come in that strengthens the intimate ties between the two cults of Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science to the cult of Freemasonry.

Do you know anything about JW's? I do. They want NO part of this "system", that includes Masonry.

A little research goes a looooooooooooooong way.

I see that you were just on, care to reply to this?

I'm VERY interested in your answer.

Originally posted by zman
At last, more compelling evidence has come in that strengthens the intimate ties between the two cults of Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science to the cult of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by intrepid
I see that you were just on, care to reply to this?

I'm VERY interested in your answer.

The Dark Side is forming it's revenge, the inane blather will consume us all...

Jedi Monkeys, not just for defending the Republic anymore...

p.s. I couldn't bring myself to say "young," I know that dark secret as well...

Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by zman
At last, more compelling evidence has come in that strengthens the intimate ties between the two cults of Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Science to the cult of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by intrepid
I see that you were just on, care to reply to this?

I'm VERY interested in your answer.

The Dark Side is forming it's revenge, the inane blather will consume us all...

Jedi Monkeys, not just for defending the Republic anymore...

p.s. I couldn't bring myself to say "young," I know that dark secret as well...

As a former JW, as well as someone intimately knowlegable with LDS, I can say that both were started by FreeMasons...JW's actually, by a much much more espteric leaning. But this doesnt mean anything bad toward FreeMasonry. Anything learned in study can be perverted or misunderstood.

If the Masons have nothing to hide than so be it.

I myself have intellegent information about the history of your organization or church. I have personally brought up this subject before and I receive a few replies from masons that cannot debate or answer the questions that I have posed to them ? They get upset and leave. Why ? They have all refused to talk about anything significant that goes on behind closed doors.

Another words, I do realize that there are probably lots of masons that are truly good people and do good things for the community, just as our own govt. But we know that there are bad people in the govt., that want to accomplish their agenda even if it goes against what we believe to be right or wrong. I am sure that they have succeeded mutiple times in our lifetime already. They may be called the skulls or skull and crossbones, secret society etc.....

Let me please pose a question: Is it totally impossible for something going on at a higher level within the masons that you yourself would not even be allowed to know ? If you say no you are in denial yourself.

I won't even go into the secrecy and occultic realm of the masons. I would think that everyone involved would want to find out the background of any organization that they joined. Well it could be like a catholic thing. Many not all catholics go to church one day a week and listen to the preist without ever cracking open the bible for themselves. Why ?

Could the massonary be the same ? Everything is peechie for you and your bros in the church and the community and nothing could ever be going wrong below the surface. Are masons not taught the history of the church ?

Any organization that hides behind occultic symbols, signs and complete secrecy needs to be questioned.

Even in Christianity God tells His people to read and search the truth because there will be false teachers. Most people that follow a false teacher don't know and do not question.

My question would be to any mason-Look into it completely yourself and question everything you can get your hands on about the free masons.

You just might find the truth !!

All religions are based off of esoteric symbolism and teachings. Even Moses was said to be an Egyptian of the esoteric arts.

And yes, noone seems to question or do the research of their organization, this is true. But, if an organization is mostly good now(like Id like to think the Catholic church is, tho I am not fully convinced) than isnt that good enough?

From countless research it seems that the Masons are a benign and charitable people of good character...its like Islam I imagine; where there is a potentially false teaching origin(but what religion isnt false?) yet in the end a lot of the people are good...despite people hijacking it. I do blieve a lot of elements of Freemasony were potentially unfavorable through the years, especially in the 1700 and 1800's, but in the modern incarnation it seems charitable and upstanding. Least one would hope so.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
They have all refused to talk about anything significant that goes on behind closed doors.

I can tallk all day about what goes on behind the closed lodge doors. We confer degrees and have stated meetings to vote on lodge business. That's it. What's so bad about that? What's to hide? I think you're lying about having asked masons those questions, because they would have told you the same thing I just did.

Let me please pose a question: Is it totally impossible for something going on at a higher level within the masons that you yourself would not even be allowed to know ? If you say no you are in denial yourself.

OH PLEASE!!!! In denial of WHAT!?!? Do YOU know what goes on at these supposed "higher levels"?? If you don't, then how can you possibly say that we are in denial? The fact of the matter is that you have NO IDEA about anything going on in Freemasonry, you don't even seem to know that there are NO "higher levels". So it is YOU who is in denial! Do not accuse us of being in denial of something which you do not know to be a fact!

I won't even go into the secrecy and occultic realm of the masons. I would think that everyone involved would want to find out the background of any organization that they joined.

Please DO go into the secrets of the masons! Our modes of recognition, such as handshakes and passwords, are our only secrets. What else? Can you tell me? I thought not.

Anyone who wants to join Freemasonry can find out ANYTHING they want about the fraternity. It's all out there for EVERYONE to see.

Any organization that hides behind occultic symbols, signs and complete secrecy needs to be questioned.

Freemasonry does no such thing. Even if it did, you are in no position to question as you are not a Freemason. So why are we even having this conversation? You have a gross misconception of what Freemasonry is. Do some research and don't post until you have found out the truth about the fraternity.

My question would be to any mason-Look into it completely yourself and question everything you can get your hands on about the free masons.

I know the truth, I have been a member for quite a while. You, on the other hand, make the mistake of thinking that you know more about the organization than ACTUAL MEMBERS. That's a complete fallacy, and makes you seem absolutely ignorant and foolish. Don't make the mistake of thinking that you can give US information about our own fraternity. There is plenty of legitimate information about Freemasonry out there, you do not need to resort to the laughable sources you have been getting your information from thus far.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Could the massonary be the same ? Everything is peechie for you and your bros in the church and the community and nothing could ever be going wrong below the surface. Are masons not taught the history of the church ?

Any organization that hides behind occultic symbols, signs and complete secrecy needs to be questioned.

I agree Thuth-man. When something is too good to be true, it usualy is.

Masons like to state that fremasonry will make a good man better. Why? If I'm good, there is no point to make me better. I don't need to take an oath of any kind, join some fraternity, or follow some mistic simbols or stories. In my mandate in this life, I just want to do as littlle harm as possible.

One member of ATS said it well when he was talking about degrees of jihad. The ultimate jihad is jihad with thy self.

And yes, every organisation of any kind needs to be questioned.

Originally posted by yanchek

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Could the massonary be the same ? Everything is peechie for you and your bros in the church and the community and nothing could ever be going wrong below the surface. Are masons not taught the history of the church ?

I agree Thuth-man. When something is too good to be true, it usualy is.

There is NO "below the surface" in Freemasonry. Everything is out in the open for all members. You guys have no proof of any kind to show that there is a part of Freemasonry hidden from members, that's ridiculous. Ever since day 1, I have never felt like ANYTHING was being hidden from me by anyone in Freemasonry. I'm in a great position to know this, because I am a member. You guys have no way of knowing one way or another.

Masons like to state that fremasonry will make a good man better. Why? If I'm good, there is no point to make me better.

And that is your choice. But some men look for something more in life. They are not content with simply being 'good". That is what Freemasonry is for.

And yes, every organisation of any kind needs to be questioned.

Only by its members, or the people the organization affects. You have NOTHING to do with Freemasonry, therefore you are in no position to demand anything of the organization. Question all you want, it wont change the fact that it is not your place to ask questions of an organization that you have nothing to do with.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
And that is your choice. But some men look for something more in life. They are not content with simply being 'good". That is what Freemasonry is for.

Why fix something that is not broken. But I agree to some point that freemasonry literature can give you some guidence.

Only by its members, or the people the organization affects. You have NOTHING to do with Freemasonry, therefore you are in no position to demand anything of the organization. Question all you want, it wont change the fact that it is not your place to ask questions of an organization that you have nothing to do with.

Every organisation have to sign itself up in a register. And every register is a public book. Therefore as a cityzen, I have every right to pose questions to any organization of my choosing.
Some would say It's not my problem. Well, I guess I'm making it my problem.

Originally posted by yanchek
Every organisation have to sign itself up in a register. And every register is a public book. Therefore as a cityzen, I have every right to pose questions to any organization of my choosing.
Some would say It's not my problem. Well, I guess I'm making it my problem.

And masonic lodges, as non-profit organizations, have public records that you can view if you like. But I don't think that's what you guys are referring to when you say that Freemasonry owes you answers for whatever. Freemasonry owes you no such things. And youre right, it is not your business. Why do you care so much about an organization that doesnt affect you one way or another?

Yanchek,

There is one sure way to find out what you want to know. Patition the lodge for membership, and go through the dergees for yourself.

Originally posted by Masonic Student
Yanchek,

There is one sure way to find out what you want to know. Patition the lodge for membership, and go through the dergees for yourself.

Well, maybe some day I will. It's the oath thing that bothers me. Once youn take it t's too late (and I take oaths very seriously). And of course a shady mason past.

To Sebat.
You are interesting bunch. And yes I sent an E-mail for additional info to the first independent lodge (established in 1999) in my country after more than 60 years. I'm waiting for reply.
Freemasonry is still very hush-hush subject in my back yard.

[edit on 26-5-2005 by yanchek]