Originally posted by 8bitagent
And one definately should know the history of their group, order, religion, etc they belong to. I encourage Christians to study up on Sumerian culture and alternative interpretations of the Bible, for instance(not saying Masonry is a religion...but it is an associative thing)

I agree completely. Although not all freemasons have an interest in the history of the Craft, many do, particularly those who have a thirst for all things masonic. Speculative freemasonry probably evolved from the operative freemasonry of medieval times; but as individual lodges kept no records we have just a few tantilising documents on which to base the growth and development of freemasonry. Organised freemasonry started in 1717 with the formation of the Grand Lodge of England - minutes are available from the 1730s and from that time the growth and subsequent development of the Craft is pretty well documented.

For an organisation such as freemasonry to have a mysterious past is quite appropriate, don't you think? . So it's really not a case of ignorance on the part of freemasons, but lack of facts with which to draw provable conclusions.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by 8bitagent
And one definately should know the history of their group, order, religion, etc they belong to. I encourage Christians to study up on Sumerian culture and alternative interpretations of the Bible, for instance(not saying Masonry is a religion...but it is an associative thing)

I agree completely. Although not all freemasons have an interest in the history of the Craft, many do, particularly those who have a thirst for all things masonic. Speculative freemasonry probably evolved from the operative freemasonry of medieval times; but as individual lodges kept no records we have just a few tantilising documents on which to base the growth and development of freemasonry. Organised freemasonry started in 1717 with the formation of the Grand Lodge of England - minutes are available from the 1730s and from that time the growth and subsequent development of the Craft is pretty well documented.

For an organisation such as freemasonry to have a mysterious past is quite appropriate, don't you think? . So it's really not a case of ignorance on the part of freemasons, but lack of facts with which to draw provable conclusions.

Hot damn this is one of the best thoughts Ive read on the perception of modern Masonry versus it's older standings. I don't see how someone associated with Freemason could deny it's strong influence over other organizations, either both good or bad.

Originally posted by 8bitagent
I don't see how someone associated with Freemason could deny it's strong influence over other organizations, either both good or bad.

That's undisputable, but you originally claimed that Freemasonry was influenced by other organizations, both good and bad. This is impossible to know because nobody is certain of Freemasonry's beginnings, nor its influences, good or bad. One thing that is FOR SURE is that a GREAT DEAL of Freemasonry's ideals and influence came from the Bible. Whether you call that a positive or negative influence is up to you.

If I wrote that, I meant to say a lot of orders or organizations borrowed heavily from Freemasonry.

Originally posted by 8bitagent
If I wrote that, I meant to say a lot of orders or organizations borrowed heavily from Freemasonry.

Ah! Well in that case you are very correct. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Originally posted by 8bitagent

If I wrote that, I meant to say a lot of orders or organizations borrowed heavily from Freemasonry.

I agree. I think that Freemasonry was like a spounge in the past which absorbed a lot of members of different orders or organisations. IMO this individuals thougt they found an ally in Freemasonry but when they realised this was not the deal they twisted the knowledge gained from the Craft and used it for their personal agenda. Probably that's why Freemasonry got a bad reputation.
Just a thought.

Originally posted by yanchek
I agree. I think that Freemasonry was like a spounge in the past which absorbed a lot of members of different orders or organisations. IMO this individuals thougt they found an ally in Freemasonry but when they realised this was not the deal they twisted the knowledge gained from the Craft and used it for their personal agenda. Probably that's why Freemasonry got a bad reputation.

You are probably very correct. We know, for example, that Aleister Crowley was made a mason (an illegal one, nonetheless) and used much of what he saw in Freemasonry to begin his own society, the Golden Dawn. The Bavarian Illuminati's founder, Adam Weishaupt, is also said to have tried to recruit many Freemasons to his cause and, when he was unsuccessful, he began his own society based on Freemasonry.

I was intrested about a Freemasonry about 9 years ago but hadn't have enough time to explore it then. But now when I have some time for myself I did a "little" research project about Freemasonry especialy when I joined ATS. I also made some personal interviews with some people (I don't know if they are Masons or not, I didn't want to ask. Freemasonry is still a little delicate subject in my country). I guess you are not so bad bunch as many said. Some even told me he would be honoured to know me as a Freemason.

BTW sebat did you checkout the link about the lodge in our country?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by yanchek
I agree. I think that Freemasonry was like a spounge in the past which absorbed a lot of members of different orders or organisations. IMO this individuals thougt they found an ally in Freemasonry but when they realised this was not the deal they twisted the knowledge gained from the Craft and used it for their personal agenda. Probably that's why Freemasonry got a bad reputation.

You are probably very correct. We know, for example, that Aleister Crowley was made a mason (an illegal one, nonetheless) and used much of what he saw in Freemasonry to begin his own society, the Golden Dawn. The Bavarian Illuminati's founder, Adam Weishaupt, is also said to have tried to recruit many Freemasons to his cause and, when he was unsuccessful, he began his own society based on Freemasonry.

Ok, we are on the same page! Yes, this is a major reason for th emisconception. Anyone with half a brain knows FreeMasons are a pretty good and benign bunch. But yeah, these sick gross misrepresentations of Freemason elements that somehow permeate through the ages.

As for the history of Freemasonry, I was to udnerstand its derived from the stone masons of the middle ages who used secrets to keep the trade within their circles, and then later adopted the more mythical ideas of Solomon's Temple and other structures and systems. Not sure where people get the Knights Templar origin.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

You are probably very correct. We know, for example, that Aleister Crowley was made a mason (an illegal one, nonetheless) and used much of what he saw in Freemasonry to begin his own society, the Golden Dawn.

Incorrect. Crowley joined the Golden Dawn in 1898 and did not get his first "masonic" degree until 1901. Crowley was a member and had nothing to do with the creation of it's system.

The O.T.O. was started by Theodor Reuss and it did have masionic rituals and did claim to make masons. Some time after Crowley took charge of the British branch of the O.T.O. he rewrote the rituals and dropped the claim they made masons after finding out how strict the English Lodge was with accepting irregular masons. (It was an effort to get their good graces).

Originally posted by 8bitagent
Not sure where people get the Knights Templar origin.

Maybe this will help. It's a part from

ANCIENT MYSTERIES AND MODERN MASONRY.
by Charles H. Vail

We will first consider the Military Order of the Knights Templars of the Crusades. This organization was originally called the Order of the Temple, and was founded in 1118-1119 A.D., by nine Benedictine Monks, who resided in Monasteries at Jerusalem. The object of the Order was the defense of the Holy Sepulcher and the protection of the Christian pilgrims who visited the sacred shrine. The holy place had been desecrated and
the Christians persecuted by both Saracen and Turk. The Christian Monks joined the Patriarch of Jerusalem in guarding the approach to the city, and lived under the Benedictine rule, fighting for the cause of the Church.
The Patriarch assigned them quarters in the palace of the Latin Kings of Jerusalem, sometimes called Solomon's TempIe, and it was this that gave the Templar name to the Order. The new Order rendered valiant service to the pilgrims and others in need; their fame spread rapidly and their
ranks as rapidly increased by recruits from the religious fraternities in Europe, members of the French nobility, and then from all classes of society. These recruits were organized by skillful military leaders and before long became renowned in the art of war. The Order was strictly a religious body and was composed of three classes,--Knights, Chaplains and Serving Brothers. A council was held in 1128 to determine the statutes of the Order. Rules of discipline and obligations numbering seventy-two were adopted. At a later date they were elaborated into a more complete
ritual. In our last lecture we mentioned that the early Templars possessed a secret doctrine. The early Freemasons also taught in secret, making it difficult to trace one without mentioning the other. I need here only to ecall that the secret science had passed along from age to age, until received by the Knights Templars. According to the record of the German Lodges the Templars received their mystic teaching from certain Syriac Christians, but of what particular doctrine, cult or order they do not state. Perhaps they were members of the Brotherhood of St. John, which, according to the Cologne Record, possessed a mystic teaching or perhaps they were members of the Johannian Christians; again, perhaps these two Societies may have been of the same or a very similar order. The Johannites were also called "Christians of the East." There is a tradition that traces the secret teaching of the Templars to the Johannites, so it is more than probable that the this Brotherhood.

Originally posted by yanchek
I was intrested about a Freemasonry about 9 years ago but hadn't have enough time to explore it then. But now when I have some time for myself I did a "little" research project about Freemasonry especialy when I joined ATS. I also made some personal interviews with some people (I don't know if they are Masons or not, I didn't want to ask. Freemasonry is still a little delicate subject in my country). I guess you are not so bad bunch as many said. Some even told me he would be honoured to know me as a Freemason.

So how come you said so many bad things about Freemasonry in the past? If I remember correctly, you agreed with many things said regarding Freemasonry here on ATS. Was that your opinion before? What helped you change your mind and realize that Freemasonry is actually a GOOD organization?

BTW sebat did you checkout the link about the lodge in our country?

Yes I did, actually. It's a small site, but I liked how it discussed Freemasonry as it pertained to Slovenia in specific, and discussed the history of the Craft in your country. It did lack some more in-depth general information regarding Freemasonry world-wide. I'd love to have someone to be able to talk to about Freemasonry there, as Eastern European countries generally have a very rich culture tied into Freemasonry.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
So how come you said so many bad things about Freemasonry in the past? If I remember correctly, you agreed with many things said regarding Freemasonry here on ATS. Was that your opinion before? What helped you change your mind and realize that Freemasonry is actually a GOOD organization?

You would be surprised how much can a person read and learn in a relatively short period of time. Maybe I was a little harsh in my previous posts (I'm provocative by nature), but that was work in progress and I had to get some emotionaly coloured and passionate answers. You can't get those kind of answers, if you ask politely. You have to start somewhere. And yes, some personal discussions with certain people helped to.

And maybe we will discuss about past and present Freemasonry in Eastern Europe and Balkan sometime in the future.

Best reegards

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
One time it is a cult and the next reply it isn't ?

You truly need to get a reliable dictionary (I prefer the Oxford English Dictionary) and look up the proper definition for "cult" and for "occult" while you're at it. Might be enlightening.

The Masons allow you to believe in any God as long is it's not more than one." One supreme being, I think that was the terminology. Isn't this hypocrytical ? Isn't that being a little fundementalist ?

Nope. That's the requirement. A man must believe in A Supreme being, the God and creator of all. Not several supreme beings...how could EACH be Supreme? Only ONE. That's the requirement.

The Knights of Columbus (a fine fraternal organization, despite some of the silly nonsense posted about it recently) requires that a candidate be a practicing Roman Catholic. Therefore NON-Roman Catholics are not eligible and cannot become members.

That's their rule, their fraternity and their business.

Masonry requires belief in ONE God...OUR rule, OUR fraternity, OUR business. Apparently you don't like that, so my advice would be, don't petition the Masonic Lodge for membership.

So if anyone would like to know the TRUTH and hidden agenda of the Freemasonry feel free to check out these sites:

Excellent suggestions. I mean, after all, why go to sites maintained by actual MASONS, who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT? They're all lies, right? And anti-Mason fundamentalist, Bible-thumpers who are out to make a buck by hoodwinking the weak-minded cattle who are susceptible to believing such garbage, would NEVER lie to do it, now would they?

Sensationalism is a dangerous thing. Much more dangerous than fundamentalism (which itself is very dangerous)

Lastley -I would like to mention that everyone in this great country of ours is welcomed to worship any god they chose and I support that.

That's true. And some of them are eligible to join Freemasonry. By it's rules, though, some of them are not.

They just need to have enough balls to admit who they really worship and not lie about it when asked !

I fail to see what this has to do with the thread, since Freemasonry is not a religion and has no "worship" in it's ceremonies.

You gotta just ask yourself- Do I really want to join a cult that lies upfront and is not honest and lies and has ties to the occult ?

No I do not. That's why *I* joined Freemasonry instead. Good luck with your cult though.

Peace Out !

Peace Out? Is that an actual English language expression or have we reverted to the 60's?

Whatever...peace out man! Like cool, huh???? (Duhhh)

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
One time it is a cult and the next reply it isn't ? Just in one page alone you have hung yourself. You have put down other religions like scientology which in the Freemasons you said " The Masons allow you to believe in any God as long is it's not more than one." One supreme being, I think that was the terminology. Isn't this hypocrytical ? Isn't that being a little fundementalist ?

When did I say that Freemasonry IS a cult? You're very confused. I have stated that Freemasonry has occult origins, just like almost every other religion, including trinitarian Christianity. I never said Freemasonry did not have occult origins. But what I DID say is that this is not unordinary, and does not make Freemasonry a satanic organization. Freemasonry does not have "ties to the occult", only one of its many origins. Christianity, Judaism, etc are no different.

Only fundamentalists such as yourself would be so hypocritical as to calll Freemasonry satanic for having occult origins, and then turn around and ignore THE SAME ORIGINS THAT THEIR OWN RELIGION HAS!

You say scientology is a cult but Masonry is not ? Please explain your rationality if possible ?

I have called Scientology a cult because Scientology DOES use brainwashing techniques, DOES charge its members LOTS of money, DOES control them by forcing them to pay off their debts with work, DOES persuade them into breaking off contact with family members who are not Scientologists. Freemasonry does NONE of these things, and therefore cannot be compared to Scientology as a cult. Make sense? Or do you need further explanation?

Occultic activity has run ramped thoughout the history of masonry for hundreds of years. There is no way in Hell that they are not aware of this. Which means they support it. Why ?

This is not true. Freemasonry has a slightly Qabbalic history, which Christianity does too. But most of Freemasonry's modern influences come straight from that book in which you put so much stock: The Bible.

Since you left your Freemasonry Business Card as to finding out the answers about the Masons- Meaning-Go to their ill informed and NOT complete theology of Masonry websites. Sounds "Fundementalist" to me !

And how exactly do you know what I have done or haven't done? Are you a mind-reader? You have absoolutely NO IDEA of what kind of research I have done and what kinds of conclusions I have come to, so don't make bad assumptions.

Lastley -I would like to mention that everyone in this great country of ours is welcomed to worship any god they chose and I support that. They just need to have enough balls to admit who they really worship and not lie about it when asked !

Nobody in Freemasonry lies about who they worship. You really need to get a clue. All Freemasons are very devout in their own faiths. Their is no worshipping going on within Freemasonry, no religious lessons on brainwashing. You do not seem to understand this, and it is making you look like a fool.

You gotta just ask yourself- Do I really want to join a cult that lies upfront and is not honest and lies and has ties to the occult ?

You mean like the kind of church you attend?


[edit on 3-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

freemasonry sometimes makes me think its good. sometimes it makes me speculate and then throws me in a suspicious mood. ill admit sometimes i get way ahead of myself. its just small things make you actually question why things are the way they are. for example, a way to describe masons to somebody that absolutely knows nothing about them could be said like ''masons are people who are trying to be just like jesus/god was.'' and some can say ''i think if things are secretive and not available to the public/need oaths to be a part of are evil and have things to hide.'' are these things good? or bad?

another thing i find sort of wierd, is how is it freemasonry always was created or came about in mostly years holding the number 7? i mean yes, they want to be like god and walk in his path just like they say, but how is it they were made in 1717? it looks like perfect timing to me? sort of weird.

also, when other masons say things like ''most of masonrys beliefs was drawn from the bible.'' well if most of them are then which ones arent? and what kind of practices do they consist of? now youre gonna tell me to join!

but cheers anway. you guys should ease up a lil and stop killing each other. lol i cant picture you guys debating this in person lmao.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
...for example, a way to describe masons to somebody that absolutely knows nothing about them could be said like ''masons are people who are trying to be just like jesus/god was.'' and some can say ''i think if things are secretive and not available to the public/need oaths to be a part of are evil and have things to hide.'' are these things good? or bad?

I think that trying to be more like Jesus was is a step in the right direction for all of us, but that's just my opinion.

Judges have to take an oath, and what goes on in Chambers is not available for the public to see or be a part of. Does that make it evil?

another thing i find sort of wierd, is how is it freemasonry always was created or came about in mostly years holding the number 7? i mean yes, they want to be like god and walk in his path just like they say, but how is it they were made in 1717? it looks like perfect timing to me? sort of weird.

How so? If it was about 7's you'd think it would have been 1501, 1510, 1600, 1677, or 1776 ( I guess the last two would actually be "3", but still, there's the three 7's thing) or something. Can you explain? I'm having a hard time taking your meaning.

also, when other masons say things like ''most of masonrys beliefs was drawn from the bible.'' well if most of them are then which ones arent? and what kind of practices do they consist of? now youre gonna tell me to join!

No but I would tell you to read and research for yourself. The information is out there if you want to find it.

but cheers anway. you guys should ease up a lil and stop killing each other. lol i cant picture you guys debating this in person lmao.

Yeah that might be ugly, especially this last week or two. I'd have to just walk away, methinks.

Originally posted by akilles
Then how do criminal Billionaire mobster drug lord arms dealers advance to the highest distinction of a system of morality?

Is there an answer to that?

Doesn't the 33rd degree require the HIGHEST level of investigation into the Mason's character?

Apparently not in the case of (regular) Mason Ilia Pavlov.

Akilles so many have already said Ilia Pavlov was just one person. Not all freemasons are like that most here have said they don't defend Ilia at all nor condone what he did in his life. Masonry was never about anything illegal or immoral. I will say this I too have members of my family in freemasonry and freemasons are not about illegal activities nor anything immoral, freemasonry is a legitimate club just like the shriners, the lions clubs all over the world and the knights of columbus or the eagles or any of the other public groups. People sometimes only want to see what they want and not what is. Masons have become a scapegoat for everything else that goes wrong in the world when people aught to point the finger at maybe the government or at themselves.

[edit on 28-8-2005 by MisticDragon]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Why do people, without a real clue as to what Masonry is about, post and promulgate such lies and falsehoods about these men?

I don't know why, but people just need conspiracy stories. They need to think that there is something sinister and evil out there that only a few people have discovered. Maybe they daydream about saving the world from some nefarious plot to take it over. Beats me.