Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by losingground
Unless someone wants to acknowledge the truth on this with me, subject closed. For now.

You say that what you claim will be hard to prove, then make no attempt whatsoever, opting instead to wait for someone else to jump on your bandwagon. Please don't take this as an attack, it's not. It is however, a request for you to at least post some facts; the manner in which you have presented your ideas does not and will not hold water here.

I think I can speak for the Masons here in saying that if there are men who are members of their fraternity who are carrying on the way you describe they would want to know about it so something can be done.

As far as your rant on networking, well, networking is a phenomenon that is going to happen in any group. Fraternities of all sorts have a history and indeed reputations for such activity. But, to say that this networking is evil or nefarious in nature, or to say that it is used to "destroy people's lives" is pretty far-fetched. Can you give some examples?

You said:

Originally posted by losingground
There may very well be masons who are decent, God fearing people who have a conscience, but I don't think a whole lot of them do. If they don't like you, if you don't live up to their so called moral "standards" then their evil thread of conspiracy begins. Whether or not they have their facts right or not, most often not, they will form a network and whomever it is they don't like, their subtle, lying, finger pointing, slanderous, conspiracy of networking begins and they will set out to destroy someone.

So they just set out to destroy "whomever they don't like"?

Can you give some examples of such people and how they were destroyed?

This is a true and very very sad fact.

How is it fact? You have shown no facts here.

Can I prove all this? It is hard to prove something that is perpetuated by such a skilled bunch of groups, that have been doing all this for God knows how long, it is hard to prove how many lives have been destroyed, how many suicides have taken place under their harassement and torment, and these suicides being made to look like the person 'wasn't all there' or 'crazy' or 'had problems at work or at home'.

Ok if it is hard to prove how many, let's start with one... Can you do it? Just ONE PERSON who has been done in the way you suggest. Let's hear some facts, please.

Should I post my observations, and what I've read?

If you hope to make your point, yes.

No, I'll keep it a secret.

There's your problem.

Then if I can't prove it, I shouldn't post it? Wrong. I can't prove it, and I've stated why. Anyone who argues in their defense can't prove they aren't perpetuating all this, but be assured I am not the only one who knows this is going on, not by a long shot.

Do you know anyone else who "knows" what you "know"? The way you talk you should be able to get some others who know about this awful conspiracy to come here and back you up, no?

There might even be posters in this forum somewhere who have posted similar mason activities, and I haven't read them yet. In any case, I hope whoever reads my post and understands what I am talking about comes forward and backs me up, but if not, so be it.

There might be, but I don't think you would want them on your side in an argument. Most if not all of them have been shown to be liars and frauds, and I doubt if association with them would help your case at all.

I believe most will do their level best to discredit me.

I for one am not trying to discredit you, but I am attempting to get you to realize that you need to back up what you say. A few facts will go a long way toward your credibility.

These people are in every part of society...government, public utilities, large chain stores, unions, the list goes on and on. And in some groups, when they have and can use the patriot act to fuel their own disgusting perpetual thread of evil, your life is over.

Yes, Masons are everywhere. They are our fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins, postmen, school teachers, in some cases public officials, janitors, chimney sweeps, coaches, librarians, accountants, contractors, architects, actors, store clerks, restaraunt managers, just about any profession you can think of is represented within the ranks of Freemasonry. Does this make a conspiracy? Hardly. Another thing, Masons throughout history have been ardent supporters of freedom and liberty, and most of the Masons I know are opposed to the Patriot Act, as it is all about the stripping of liberties from the individual. Not in line with Masonic principles at all.

Don't tell me they subscribe to morality, thier lack of conscience is a subscription to a thread of evil that is world wide.

Pretty broad claim for a fraternity that figures to have somewhere around 6 million members, don't you think? They all "lack conscience"? I hardly think so.

If someone has done something wrong, or have done nothing wrong and simply don't like you for whatever reason they've dreamed up, their manifestions are such a large powerful EVIL force that you wonder why God hasn't stepped in to end it.

Yeah, they'll blow up your toilet.

Come on, man, are you seriously that paranoid?

I tell you what. Print this post, take it down to your local lodge, and voice your opinions and concerns to them. Tell them what you think, and ask questions and see if you can't convince yourself, after doing so, that what you have posted here is untrue. I guarantee you no harm will befall you. You might even learn a little something about the men you seem to fear so much.

[edit on 5/22/05 by The Axeman]

Then how do criminal Billionaire mobster drug lord arms dealers advance to the highest distinction of a system of morality?

Is there an answer to that?

Doesn't the 33rd degree require the HIGHEST level of investigation into the Mason's character?

Apparently not in the case of (regular) Mason Ilia Pavlov.

I don't know anything about an Ilia Pavlov. Never heard of him.

What I do know is that it's too simplistic to judge an organisation by the activities of a tiny minority of it's members.

Osama's trouble, but does that mean all Saudis, or all Muslims are bad?

Martha's been naughty, but what does that tell us about celebrity home-makers, or cooks, or celebs in general?

Jeffrey Archer went way too far. Can we tar all fictional writers with the same brush? Or all politicians?

Get some perspective

edited for spelling

[edit on 23-5-2005 by Trinityman]

Originally posted by Trinityman
I don't know anything about an Ilia Pavlov. Never heard of him.

I hadn't either. Here's a little on what I found:

www.sofiaecho.com...

www.ired.com...

from www.srmason-sj.org... (emphasis mine)

After these ceremonies, the members of the Supreme Council, 33°, in Bulgaria, the new 33° Brethren, Ill. Woodward, as well as foreign guests from sister Supreme Councils and Grand Lodges, visited the grave of Ill. Ilia Pavlov, 33°, Grand Minister of State for the Supreme Council, 33°, in Bulgaria, to pay their respects. Ill. Woodward placed a lovely flower wreath on the grave on the behalf of the Southern Jurisdiction, USA. He then highlighted the merits of Ill. Pavlov for the development of Freemasonry and the Scottish Rite not only in Bulgaria but also for the rest of the world.

from: www.geocities.com...

Ilia Pavlov

Ilia Pavlov is today the most famous business man in Bulgaria as well as one of the richest man. He is at the head of 'Multigroup' a conglomerate dealing with all sectors of economy. He started doing business just before the democratic changes in Bulgaria.

He graduated from the High Institute for Physical Culture, now called the National Sports Academy, and followed with a degree in journalism. He also competed in wrestling matches.

According to the press, he was once married to the daughter of a former military intelligence counter-espionage boss. This may explain his numerous political connections, and his troubles with the anti-corruption forces of the police are one of the favorite topics of the local press.

What Akilles is on about, I have no idea, as usual. Akilles, care to elaborate on the "criminal Billionaire mobster drug lord arms dealer" angle?

The only descriptor I can agree with you on with any level of certainty is the billionaire part. I'm not saying you are wrong, I don't know, I'm just asking you to provide some backup for your claims.

[edit on 5/23/05 by The Axeman]

Thanks Axeman. Like you say - we'll have to wait for more information from Akilles.

Originally posted by akilles
Then how do criminal Billionaire mobster drug lord arms dealers advance to the highest distinction of a system of morality?
...
Doesn't the 33rd degree require the HIGHEST level of investigation into the Mason's character?

No, it doesn't. The 33rd degree is simply an honor for service to the fraternity. If this guy has done a lot for the Scottish Rite, then he got his 33rd degree. It has nothing to do with investigating someone's background, because it is simply an honorary degree. The real investigation is supposed to be done before someone is initiated into the fraternity.

The 33rd degree is really not as important as you'd like to believe.


[edit on 23-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Trinityman
Thanks Axeman. Like you say - we'll have to wait for more information from Akilles.

Well I for one am not holding my breath, but we'll see.

folks would stop speculating about the freemasons if they let geraldo rivera look inside the vault, so to speak. That will never happen, so the speculation will continue.
The fact many us presidents have been freemasons, and they are secretive, leads to speculation. Its human nature, to be curious.

this is a conspiracy forum, btw

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
folks would stop speculating about the freemasons if they let geraldo rivera look inside the vault, so to speak. That will never happen, so the speculation will continue.
The fact many us presidents have been freemasons, and they are secretive, leads to speculation. Its human nature, to be curious.

this is a conspiracy forum, btw

What vault? There is no vault, so to speak. We have stated MILLIONS of timmes that the only secrets that Freemasons have are our modes of recognition, such as handshakes and passwords. Is that what Geraldo Rivera should get access to? Will that demistify the fraternity? I doubt it. People will keep speculating because they want to, because the truth is boring.

And is this a conspiracy forum, or a forum that claims to "Deny Ignorance"?

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
folks would stop speculating about the freemasons if they let geraldo rivera look inside the vault, so to speak. That will never happen, so the speculation will continue.
The fact many us presidents have been freemasons, and they are secretive, leads to speculation. Its human nature, to be curious.

this is a conspiracy forum, btw

All anyone has to do to find out about Freemasonry is ask a Freemason. How much simpler can you get?

There have been what, 16 presidents who were Masons, the last being Gerald Ford. So what?

And actually, in England some time ago, they did let a news crew come in and see what goes on in lodge. I can't recall when or where but I distinctly remember Masked Avatar posting something about it. The Masons have open houses and meet and greets much more often than one would think. They really aren't that secretive if you get right down to it.

Just go to your local lodge and ask about Freemasonry, see how secretive they are. I can tell you that will get you alot further than speculation.

LMAO @ Geraldo Rivera...

the vault reference was a (weak) attempt at humor. I thought the only things they kept secret (maybe private is a beter word ?) is the initiation ceremony or something like that ? anyway, my point is people are curious, and some take it to conspiracy levels, and this board is chock full of those types.....

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
the vault reference was a (weak) attempt at humor. I thought the only things they kept secret (maybe private is a beter word ?) is the initiation ceremony or something like that ? anyway, my point is people are curious, and some take it to conspiracy levels, and this board is chock full of those types.....

In SOME jurisdictions, masonic degrees (rituals) are kept secret. My jurisdiciton (California) is one of those. In others, such as inn England, the ONLY things that are still kept secret are the modes of recognition. That is seriously it. This can be attested to by the fact that a prominent masonic author (Robert Lomas) recently released a book which details his masonic initiation, passing and raising as a Master Mason.

Besides, all of our rituals have been exposed hundreds of times in the past 200 years. Just because masons won't talk about them doesn't mean they are really a secret.

You are right about these paranoid conspiracy nuts, I just wish they could see the obvious past their own ignorance and fantastic imagination.

Just wanted to point out what I was talking about earlier.

I don't take this as proof of anything, but I'm sure there are those that would.

Posts till now on thread: 52

Posts that are pro-mason: 27

Posts made by people with masonic avatars: 20


You see what I mean. When you guys engage people so veraciously it makes them think there is something to the outlandish claims.

That's all I'm saying.








[edit on 23-5-2005 by LeftBehind]

the meek shall inherit the earth

t decended and ascended

a and o are interchangeable

and open all that is closed

and elevate all in equality

stand upright

if the eye reverses and makes everything upside down before it presents the information to our brains ..... are we seeing with our eyes and overriding our brains, or is our subconscious interpreting it to fit our genetic disposition of the instinct "self preserve .... SELF BEFORE YOU SERVE"?

theres a movie coming out about all this, the davinci code.

the davinci code was encoded by the code for the benifit of those who have faith in more than their selfish selves, AKA not freemasons. you know the type, those who seek answers, or have questions.

soon enough everyone will realize what their brains were only conscious of 2,000 bits of information per second while their brains were calculating 400,000,000,000 bits of information per second for a reason. the reason being they themselves knew they weren't worthy. the only conspiracy is the basis of all life, their own consciousness.

ophiuchus

time phi'd you choose. coven ant.

free mia's sons. if you don't understand ..... take a look at the great seal to see all on the back of your 1 dollar bill.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Just wanted to point out what I was talking about earlier.

I don't take this as proof of anything, but I'm sure there are those that would.

Posts till now on thread: 52

Posts that are pro-mason: 27

Posts made by people with masonic avatars: 20


You see what I mean. When you guys engage people so veraciously it makes them think there is something to the outlandish claims.

That's all I'm saying.

How? When we provide facts to back up what we say, and those that detract don't, or simply refuse to acknowledge the facts we have presented? It makes me think there is NOTHING to the outlandish claims. Show me one shred of legitimate evidence???

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by LeftBehind
You see what I mean. When you guys engage people so veraciously it makes them think there is something to the outlandish claims.

How? When we provide facts to back up what we say, and those that detract don't, or simply refuse to acknowledge the facts we have presented? It makes me think there is NOTHING to the outlandish claims. Show me one shred of legitimate evidence???

It's true. The only people that see the quantity of replies from us as evidence of guilt are the same people that do not read or acknowledge the evidence and facts that we post.

Very true Sebatwerk.

I was just commenting, I don't believe most of the craziness I hear attributed to masons. I just see you guys posting facts and details, and then someone jumps in without reading anything and posts about baby killing, etc.

Then again I'm guilty of the same thing in other areas of the forum, but hey, some people just can't be shaken of the notion that masons are all evil, the universe is only 6000 years old, the moon landings were fake, and so on.

It just seemed to me that it might shut people up if some of the more outlandish claims about masons were not even replied to, turning a 50+ reply thread into a one pager, and thus obscurity.

Here's some background info on Ilia Pavlov.

Multigroup

The firm Multigroup was suspected of laundering money for the bulgarian mafia, the firm was started by Ilija Pavlov (the son in law of the former secret service chief general Chergilanov). Pavlov bought togather with Ivan Slavkov (the son in law of the fallen Schiwkov) dumped (old) Soviet submarines.

MG Corporation

8 March 2003 was MG Corporation founder and president Iliya Pavlov (43) shot and killed in front of the corporation's headquarters in Sofia. He was Bulgaria's wealthiest businessman who transformed his former notorious Multigroup corporation (set up in the beginning of the democratic changes in Bulgaria) into MG Corporation to change its shady "grouping" image. Iliya Pavlov was ranked eight with 1,5 billion dollars among 25 billionaires in extended eastern Europe.

(So you can see he made his first money off arms sales, and he married the daughter of the Chief of Intelligence in the country, and set up his company JUST prior to Democratic changes. His success could NOT have come alone)

Check it out. Even the Embassy has heard 'the rumors':

"On March 7, Iliya Pavlov, reportedly head of Bulgaria's largest organized crime organization, was shot and killed in Sofia a day after he testified about his professional relationship with Lukanov in the murder case. However, all indications from official and independent sources were that his death was linked to his reported organized criminal activities"

www.usembassy.bg...

Thats all they say about it, though.

Funny that they pick up on the fact that he was murdered after testimony, but that his murder is NOT related to the testimony. In other words, someone wanted to make it LOOK like the reason he was being shot, as opposed to being killed due to criminal activity in the past.

Well, maybe it's just me...BUT...isn't Masonry jewelry common in every major department store? Are not their books in every bookstore? Don't they have lodges in virtually EVERY town in America and Europe? Were not HALF of our founding fathers Masons?

Gee, for being of such illrepute...Masonry is downright POPULAR!

BTW, I think all lodges are required to keep a supply of various Masonry books on hand, which they are obliged to sell to whom ever asks for them. Why not simply GO IN AND BUY ONE??

Now, about those Rosicrucions...



[edit on 24-5-2005 by Toelint]