Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by pepsi78

If you ever get one, single Freemason who tells you that Freemasonry is a religion, you might have a tiny, miniscule starting point for an argument. But when every single man who is a member of the Order tells you that he does not believe that it is a religion, your argument is null and void through logic itself.

1 what deegre are you?
2 do you realy know what is above the 25 deegre not just a few things the hole thing?
I am telling you now that religion is separate from faith and belife in god
has i founded to be on my self.
Religion does not represent god in his full picture and that religion is just doctrine.
I will simply state that cristian religions have diffrent opinions on god and creates diffrent gods has god is only one.
A adventist will celabreate the 7 day on saturday, a ortodox and a chatolic will represent it on sunday. god says the 7 day is for rest and he insists on it.
Jehova witnes says dont take our blood it's our soul we are not alowed to have blood transfusions

And i must say you got some opinions about god like the eye maybe in some other religion the eye means something to them it means this and to them it means that for example masons say bapomet is good and it represents that and that the chatholic says it's evil and who knows what others will say maybe that it can fly or it could do magic trics or that it can talk.
The point is masons have a difrent point from others cristian religions and cristian religions also conflicts with them cause they are not the same and are very difrent one from another.

My point is you dont find god in a cross in an eye or in anyother simbol he is not there and cant be made to look like a simbol if you do that it becomes religion.
Have you seen god maybe he's got a milion eyes all over his body i havent
Maybe he is energy maybe he see's maybe he is the very own material of the universe no one knows for sure but to put him in a simbol has a representation is more than rong.
God told you in the bible dont make me a simbol out of a shape cause god does not like it cause maybe he does not represent that.
So that is why i think masonari sounds like a religion cause it's diffrent simbols signs opinions i really dont know maybe there is a crestin religion that will say the goat is good.
But when you look at the big picture they are all difrent so it is to my personal opinion that you have to search for god u'r self and that's why i think religion si defined has alot of doctrine and rules.
If you go to a ortodox priest and tell him that the eye represents god he will simply state u'r crazy cause duhh doctrine they dont accept that so u'r difrent from them and they are difrent from each other.
You simply cant fit all cristianity cause all of them have diffrent gods because there are difrent religions.

You dont need any simbols to belive in god he is out there and does not need simbols.
And god does not need simbols to be represented anything beyong that becomes religion and religion is a bunch of rules glued in one pice with one big simbol at the top that you dont have to kiss.but it's there has their religion.
Jehova witnes has the pole and do not belive in the cross they dont kiss the pole but it represents their religion a substitute for the cross.
Adventists dont kiss or pray to the cross also but the cross has a religios meaning to them.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 26-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Institutionalised Parasites?
by Tony Gosling @nticopyright

When I first heard about the Freemasons they seemed harmless enough, a likable curiosity. Aprons? Secret handshakes? A bit of childlike escapism for grown-ups? But Stephen Knight and Martin Short's masonic exposés reveal an occult order where standards are falling rapidly. Their investigations reveal a more sinister picture of the world's most extensive secret society.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by crusader
Institutionalised Parasites?
by Tony Gosling @nticopyright

When I first heard about the Freemasons they seemed harmless enough, a likable curiosity. Aprons? Secret handshakes? A bit of childlike escapism for grown-ups? But Stephen Knight and Martin Short's masonic exposés reveal an occult order where standards are falling rapidly. Their investigations reveal a more sinister picture of the world's most extensive secret society.

[edit on 26-10-2005 by Nygdan]

My take on this little website is that it is very biased, provides no information to back up its slanderous claims and makes plenty of errors with even the basic facts about Freemasonry.

"Bloodcurdling initiation rites"

How so? Whats so "bloodcurdling"?

"Anyone who approaches the masons in order to join will probably be encouraged by the prospect of gaining social positions by the back door"

Not true, in fact when candidates are asked why they want to become a Mason, even if they don't mention the opportunity to make business connections, we, the interviewers do and tell them that thats not what Freemasonry is about and if that be their motivation what so ever then this Order is not for them.

Additionally if an individual ever stated that as one of their main reasons for petitioning to join our craft I would black ball him.


"Masons are men who fight shy of free and open discussion."

Obviously not true as the amount of Freemasons who openly discuss all types of things including Freemasonry on this site disproves this claim.

"In the lowest three degrees of masonry there is a plethora of silly rituals that may, or may not, mean something. The point of these is surely to brainwash men into accepting bizarre subservience without questioning why they are doing it. If initiates prove to be truly and ingratiatingly obedient they are then selected by their Masonic betters to enter the higher degrees up to level 33 [see extract below]. The move to these higher degrees is like stepping from the second class to the first class carriage on a train. The 4th to 33rd degree seems to be called the 'Royal Arch' though I can find no masonic literature 'spelling that out'."

Here in the 6th paragraph already the authors claims and "research" if any, prove to be seriously lacking. The first 3 degrees of Freemasonry which are refered to as the Craft degrees or the Blue Lodge are the only true degrees of Freemasonry, the Highest and most sublime degree being the 3rd degree and title of Master Mason. The rituals of these first 3 degrees are not by any means silly, they are quite solomn, and serious. Furthermore as this author is and was not a Mason and thus has never witnessed the rituals himself nor undergone them, how can he develop and opinion of them, especially an accurate one?

If initiates prove to have become proficient in their current degree and have met their obligations then they will be given the opportunity to advance. The Red House or Royal Arch consists of degrees 4-7, NOT "The 4th to 33rd degree seems to be called the 'Royal Arch'" as the author claims. If he cant even get the widely available public knowledge of our degree structure correct, how do you suppose he's going to do with the supposed "really secret stuff"?

"The Royal Arch is more like a gentleman's club than the lower levels."

How would he know? HE'S NOT A MASON and therefore has never been to a Royal Arch Lodge meeting.

"So secrecy is at the very heart of what the masons are about."

I love how he just leaps to this conclusion.

"Masonry is bad for the families of those who join it, because it can, and frequently does, take precedence over everything else in their lives."

Of course I can't say that some Mason somewhere let the craft take precedence over his family or as the author states "everything else in their lives." but I would doubt it. What I can say is that I come from a long line of Masons on both sides of my family and they have always put their families first in their lives, the ironic thing is those non Masons in my family have been the dead beat dads, etc. Again there is no evidence to presented to support this or any of the authors other claims.

"It is bad for culture, democracy and the nation.'

How is that? It promotes dialog and interaction between men of different faiths and cultures, how is that "bad for culture"? The greatest democracy on Earth, the United States was founded largely in part by Masons, on Masonic principles, so how is Masonry "bad for democracy and the nation"?????????

Rubbish as usual.

The reason why normals post stuff on things they have no knowledge of, is because the little secret sect doesn't tell anyone anything. If the masons wern't so elite and secretive.. like say the boy scouts... then there would be less speculation and suspicion about their activities. No?

To make a long story short and to sum it up in a nutshell:

Basic human nature is to fear that which we do not understand.
Given Masons and freemasons is a very private fraternity, already leads some preconceived notion, that there are dark and mysterious forces at work. Get over yourself, you have to be a man, and you also need references,at least one other Mason must recommend you.

The selection process is lengthy, and I think the reason these lies pop up is because, unlike most organizations, they have prerequisites to becoming a member. And rightfully so.

Its to protect the purpose of a mason. Being the foundation of our very country lies on the belief structural system of this society, would you want a rapist, pedophile, or sociopath, creating the very laws that govern us and keep us safe? From the research I've done, The Man who wishes to gain brotherhood, must pass a test of good virtue and prove that he has faith in a higher power.(Maybe people are ticked that you aren't limited into one named diety) Must be able to do so on his own. It weeds out the ones that can hide their faults and make good first impressions, there are several others but I won't rant too much.

Good example, my dads house was at the end of a dead end. Noone knew what he looked like other than the couple of times a year he would venture to the road to trim trees,carrying a chainsaw. We had horses, and our piece of property was seated next to a riding academy in front of a state forest. Our yard was very secluded and private. When I lived with him, you wouldn't believe the amount of kids that had worked my dear dad into some crazed lunatic, that had escaped from a psych ward and chopped up little children that wandered down the driveway.

Heck, when I was walking to go pay my phone bill, the kids were even asking me if I had running water and electricity, and couldn't believe I had a phone.

Alot of human nature consists of baiting and setting a trap in hopes that out of sheer anger, they'll be shown all the secrets just for the sake of argument. Its kind of like when kids are arguing, and one of them insults the other till the one being challenged is forced to prove themselves. Like stealing your dad's Mickey Mantle signed baseball and playing with it because he kept it locked up and none of the kids believed you really had it.

If anyone should be persecuted for being a secret society, with all sorts of wicked ways, maybe catholics and other sects should concentrate more on their own religion, (Before the backlash, I was born and raised catholic)I just cannot believe everything that has been force fed to me. It is one thing to have a curiosity, if thats the case read books and do your homework, don't take the words of two journalists expose's.

Anyone with half a brain knows that sensationalism sells papers, and who wants to read a boring old story on how a really old organization, is just like belonging to a Moose Lodge, Or a VFW hall, versus being a Dark secret society, that performs strange initiation rites in the cloak of night, possibly sacrificing human babies!

Sorry for the rant, but I don't like people who attack what they do not understand.

[edit on 10/27/2005 by denial28]

[edit on 10/27/2005 by denial28]

To the two guys above.

The absolute truth is that Freemasonry really isn't as secretive as you think it is. Just go take a look around the net. You can find everything regarding the Order and a vast amount of that is posted by Freemasons themselves.
The only thing classified as "secret" is the mode of recognition - the way in which one Freemason greets another. Everything else is in the public domain.
It's been said time and time again - Freemasonry is not a secret society. It is more like a private club which contains one or two secrets. The very fact that Freemasons post in answer to questions here must give you some idea that it isn't as secretive as it's made out to be.

That certainly isn't to say that Freemasonry hasn't been secretive in the past. Historical events have dictated that it had to be. When being a member of the Order was enough to get you killed, is it any wonder that it went underground for a time?

But the Freemasonry of today is far, far more open than it has been for years. It is only those who don't bother looking for answers that believe it to be secretive. Freemasonry is like any othe subject discussed here on ATS - unless you actually research a few things, you won't know about the subject. Those who think that Freemasonry is a secret society are normally those who haven't bothered reading anything about it other than conspiracy sites or those who have an agenda to cast aspersions. Everything can be classed as mysterious or secret unless a person gathers knowledge for himself.

So my advice to you is - go read!!! You won't find anything out there that shows you Freemasonry is a "Secret Society". Not unless it is written by somebody who hasn't studied the subject or unless it is promoted by somebody furthering their own agenda.

Originally posted by pepsi78
(You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth);

So then by all means you're also stating that one who kneels before a cross an prays should be deemed to a life of eternal damnation then?

It isnt even a likeness of God... It is a graven image..

The only reason I say secret is because of the context of this thread. I went to a camp when I was 8 called Masonic camp 7 in upstate NY.

If they were truly that secretive, why would they sponsor poor girls to go to summercamp for free?

[edit on 10/27/2005 by denial28]

the only thing im sure of is that i find the whole freemasonry thing extremly stupid and full of crapola, useless dribble, stupid nicknames and people who blindly follow and obey their masters.
Perhaps decades or centuries ago, there was a point to it, however, i fail to see the point in using old english words, wearing silly hats and doing the CHILDISH cultish rituals, that to most people border on satanistic.

No wonder they do it in secrecy....BECOUSE ITS SOOOO STOOOOOPID, freemasons probably became secret society becouse people were laughing at them when they did their stuff in public

The only meaning i see in doing this stuff is that eventually you figure out youre being an idiot....so if this is what you need then its all good.
But your path to enlightenment? Good luck, youre gonna need it if you think enlightenment will be handed down to you by the "grand master of the eastern star...."



youre all just a good coverup for the elite and you dont even know it, your like the mini-me version of the elite....or like JM said, porch masons

look dada, i can

[edit on 27-10-2005 by nukunuku]

If something is secret is something there hiding from the people.

Usually even in Masons there is a socity between them. Just because you part of them in a year doesnt mean you know all of them

Originally posted by nukunuku
the only thing im sure of is that i find the whole freemasonry thing extremly stupid and full of crapola, useless dribble, stupid nicknames and people who blindly follow and obey their masters.

Thanks for the input. You've added exactly zero.

The problem I have with people like you is that you display a complete hypocrisy. See, the only obeying carried out is the obeyance of following the line of ignorance by folk like yourself.
As a Freemason, I don't obey anything except my god, the law of the society in which I live and occasionally, my wife - and even then I do it because I choose to. Even within Freemasonry, I choose to do what I want to. I can be asked to do something - but never told.

See the word "Free" in Freemason? It means I choose what I do. Whereas you seem to be the lackey - the slave to ignorance. I wonder - do you choose to be ignorant? Haven't you ever heard the proverb about people who live in glass houses?

Now, if you want to come up with some concrete proof (which you can't), feel free to post it. If you can show me one single thing that gives credence to your accusation that a Freemason is a tool of the so-called "elite" you have my word that I will leave the Order like a shot.

But let me give you a word of advice - use logic. Writing a personal opinion without regard to given evidence is never going to persuade anyone. Want to give it a go? I believe you'll be found as wanting as you were in your attempt at a flame!!!

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by nukunuku
the only thing im sure of is that i find the whole freemasonry thing extremly stupid and full of crapola, useless dribble, stupid nicknames and people who blindly follow and obey their masters.

Thanks for the input. You've added exactly zero.

The problem I have with people like you is that you display a complete hypocrisy. See, the only obeying carried out is the obeyance of following the line of ignorance by folk like yourself.
As a Freemason, I don't obey anything except my god, the law of the society in which I live and occasionally, my wife - and even then I do it because I choose to. Even within Freemasonry, I choose to do what I want to. I can be asked to do something - but never told.

See the word "Free" in Freemason? It means I choose what I do. Whereas you seem to be the lackey - the slave to ignorance. I wonder - do you choose to be ignorant? Haven't you ever heard the proverb about people who live in glass houses?

Now, if you want to come up with some concrete proof (which you can't), feel free to post it. If you can show me one single thing that gives credence to your accusation that a Freemason is a tool of the so-called "elite" you have my word that I will leave the Order like a shot.

But let me give you a word of advice - use logic. Writing a personal opinion without regard to given evidence is never going to persuade anyone. Want to give it a go? I believe you'll be found as wanting as you were in your attempt at a flame!!!

No way will i get cought up in a loop with all of you masons here again, I did my share with the now gone Sebatwerk (may the force be with him), enjoyed it for a while, figured out how it works and came to the conclusion talking to you guys is a complete waste of my time, simply becouse were different.

I dont want to shatter anyones dreams about "the brotherhood", and even if i wanted i couldnt, just like nobody else can. People will belive what they want, and they can find "proof" for their beleifs on the internet, the lodge, books, anywhere. So if you CHOOSE to belive freemasonry is all good i certainly dont intend to stop you.

I do however have in my posession a certain book called "in the name of the lodge", which was written by a slovenian journalist that infiltrated a lodge and later wrote about it. It took him 2 years to get in, it took him plenty more years to get the book published. Now the kinky part here is that the book was printed CENSORED, with black strips over certain paragraphs, names, etc....like US government does on UFO reports
Now have you seen a censored published book before? I am holding it in my hands. The hands of freemasonry spread everywhere.

I am far from ignorant, i dont even claim i know what goes on behind closed doors of your lodges, i just wrote my opinion.
I know ive contribuded 0 , but every freemason that posts here contributes 0 with his posts, becouse its all useless mumbo jumbo. Since its obvious where you stand on the subject beeing freemason and all, only a fool would belive you. Your words are no proof i hope you understand that, becouse you are 100% biased.

You just fail to see, that if you really are a free thinking person, we are on the same side, freemason or not. However since you need you "exclusivity" and "secrecy" to make you feel better ABOUT YOURSELF, so be it.

I however, keep my jewels in my pants

peace man, dont take it personally, it is not a personal attack, we are all just people, but the whole institution of freemasonry is one historical trashcan.

My position on this is sort of like when you have a friend thats going out with a wrong girl. You know shes no good for him but you can look at his situation objectively becouse youre on the outside of the game. What you say dont make any difference to him whatsoever becouse hes helplesly in love. But when the things turn out the way you knew they would, he comes crying.

You know...

peace

Originally posted by nukunuku
Your words are no proof i hope you understand that, becouse you are 100% biased.

Right and wrong. Words are not proof. But you are incorrect that I am 100% biased. Doesn't that assumption basically accuses me of ignorance? If I were totally biased I wouldn't feel the need to post in reply would I? I would be confident enough to just ignore your accusations. But I learnt that there is nothing that one can be 100% sure of. That is why I debate Freemasonry and why I came to this site 3 years ago to discuss conspiracy theories (incidentally, it was the JFK assassination that I Googled in on). I study and look at the evidence. In the case of Freemasonry I do admittedly have the advantage of being on the inside looking out, but I never take that for granted.
But because I keep an open mind on things, it does not mean that I can rashly accuse anyone of anything as some do here without weighing up the pros and cons. With Freemasonry itself, I can only tell you what I believe to be true. This comes from years of experience from being inside the Order and years of studying it from every angle I can find. Some people here quote Stephen Knight's book - but who here has actually read it cover to cover 3 times? I did, long before I even came to ATS. Why? Because I wanted to see both sides. The same goes for anything else I can find regarding the subject.

As I have stated, I am not one to blindly follow. And like many here I am curious and inquisitive. It is only natural that I would therefore study the Order of which I am a member. This means looking at the negatives as well as the positives. I could not throw a negative away merely because it does not fit well with my view of Freemasonry as much as I could not disregard the positives which make me a Freemason. If I thought for one moment that I was being "used" or that I was a "slave" to some sort of twisted system, believe me, I would be out. And also believe me, I've looked and still do. Furthermore, it would be ignorant to expect me not to study something in which I participate. It would also be ignorant to expect me to blindly disregard any negative I come across or to not study it as deeply as I can.
After all - it's my ass that I'm protecting.

ok, please forgive me but i dont have time to read 25 pages of this debate. i've read the first few pages, and this page. There seems to be quite a lot of masons who want people to understand them. I think my great grandfather was a mason. I have been told various things about what masons believe in regards to the creation of man, stories involving the pyramids and things like that, whether they are true or not i don't know. Sorry to be repeating anything that has been already disscussed.
What i would like is for a member to straighten out a few questions i have, and keep it simple for me i don't have time to read entire lectures on the subject, that would be great. Ok here it goes:

1. What is the main reason for it being a male only society, why can't you be female?

2. Do you have to be white? Are there any black, asian, hispanic, aboriginal or whatever other nonwhite background masons? If not why not?

3.Lets say there are two people up for the same job, one a hindu female with excellent qualifications 10 years experience in the field, the other a white male with no previous experience in the field and half relevant qualifications, but he is a mason. The person interviewing these two people is a middle aged white male, also a mason. Will he see that this woman is better qualified and give her the job or will he simply give the job to his fellow mason member?

4.Do you fint that Simpsons episode where homer joins the "stone cutters" funny or do you sit there going "its not acually like that you know" to everyone around you?

Thanks in advance to whomever answers my questions. I'd like to say i am totally biased and have an open mind about this topic, i just want to confront some of the common popular opinions about freemansonry with clear cut questions and answers.

[edit on 27-10-2005 by superduperman]

Originally posted by superduperman

1. What is the main reason for it being a male only society, why can't you be female?

Simply because it was founded and has always existed as a society for men. There is a female appendant body or equivilant, the Order of Eastern Stars.

Originally posted by superduperman
2. Do you have to be white? Are there any black, asian, hispanic, aboriginal or whatever other nonwhite background masons? If not why not?

No, there are Masons of every color and race.

Originally posted by superduperman
3.Lets say there are two people up for the same job, one a hindu female with excellent qualifications 10 years experience in the field, the other a white male with no previous experience in the field and half relevant qualifications, but he is a mason. The person interviewing these two people is a middle aged white male, also a mason. Will he see that this woman is better qualified and give her the job or will he simply give the job to his fellow mason member?

Who's to say, that would be up to this individual, not Freemasonry. If he was a smart business man he would hire the most qualified person regardless to fraternal ties. I personally would hire the woman, she being more qualified and all, however I would look for a position under my observance which the brother was qualified for. This same question however can be posed for any fraternity, not just Freemasonry.

Originally posted by superduperman
4.Do you fint that Simpsons episode where homer joins the "stone cutters" funny or do you sit there going "its not acually like that you know" to everyone around you?

I find it absolutely hillarious, its one of my favorite episodes.

Hey Leveller i totally understand your position, i dont consider you people evil or something. But the institution of freemasonry has a big effect on politics and economy all over the world and this web was build patiently over generations and generations of masons. Nobody even knows how many different lodges and secret societies are in the world but there are many, and many of them consider themselves freemasons, legit or not. And they survived for ages only becouse they always bend over and serve the master that is currently running the country the lodge is in. So while most blue freemasons belive in freedom, equality and brotherhood there is an "architect" pulling the strings. And i think he considers you ants as well, not just us "ordinary people".

Thanks Khonsu, very interesting. especially the female equivalent the order of the eastern stars, i had heard the name before but not known what it was.

Originally posted by superduperman
Thanks Khonsu, very interesting. especially the female equivalent the order of the eastern stars, i had heard the name before but not known what it was.

Superduperman

You might also be interested in the following:

www.hfaf.org...

Originally posted by nukunuku
So while most blue freemasons belive in freedom, equality and brotherhood there is an "architect" pulling the strings. And i think he considers you ants as well, not just us "ordinary people".

Freedom is probably one of the most interesting concepts out there. To me, it is the ultimate. Freedom to do what I like as long as I don't harm others is one of my raisons d'etre.
But for you to gain Freedom, don't you first have to recognise what it is? Otherwise it's just a word like any other.
Personally, I like the philosophy that I found within Freemasonry. This led me onto the concept of Freedom. It's highly doubtful that someone "up there" would give me access to something which potentially has so much power.
Of course, the counter argument could be that I could be being tricked or coerced into believing that I have some extent of Freedom, but when one realises that one can make a choice about everything, that argument is logically null and void.

Sure, Freemasonry (through it's members) was involved in the creation of important aspects of yesteryear. But unfortunately (in my opinion) it isn't today. Freemasons don't play nearly the part in government and law that they used to. And when you look at things in the cold light of day - where is our Freedom now? In the UK we have a phrase to describe the stifling of our liberty - it's called the "Nanny State". And it sure as hell wasn't created by Freemasons.



[edit on 27-10-2005 by Leveller]

what if i posted a link with a movie with free masons involved in ocult rituals
in a lodge.
What masons from this forum would think of it?
I'm just asking

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by nukunuku
So while most blue freemasons belive in freedom, equality and brotherhood there is an "architect" pulling the strings. And i think he considers you ants as well, not just us "ordinary people".

Freedom is probably one of the most interesting concepts out there. To me, it is the ultimate. Freedom to do what I like as long as I don't harm others is one of my raisons d'etre.
But for you to gain Freedom, don't you first have to recognise what it is? Otherwise it's just a word like any other.
Personally, I like the philosophy that I found within Freemasonry. This led me onto the concept of Freedom. It's highly doubtful that someone "up there" would give me access to something which potentially has so much power.
Of course, the counter argument could be that I could be being tricked or coerced into believing that I have some extent of Freedom, but when one realises that one can make a choice about everything, that argument is logically null and void.

Sure, Freemasonry (through it's members) was involved in the creation of important aspects of yesteryear. But unfortunately (in my opinion) it isn't today. Freemasons don't play nearly the part in government and law that they used to. And when you look at things in the cold light of day - where is our Freedom now? In the UK we have a phrase to describe the stifling of our liberty - it's called the "Nanny State". And it sure as hell wasn't created by Freemasons.

Well my opinion is quite different, but my opinion has little or nothing to do with blue lodges. These are mostly full of truthseekers, pleople that like the secret stuff and people that think of material gains trough joining. Makes for a good base for a pyramid dont you think. You do know youre in a pyramid i presume.

Your freedom is institutionalized, much like organized religion. Think about it.