Originally posted by Syrian Sister
In george orwells 1984 (this one you know too well eastcoast ), there was two themes.

1. The perpetual war. To keep fear and hate within the population going.

2. The cival liberties taken away from the people, by use of fear tactics, "terrorist leader" called Goldestein. His image and his speeches where played on tv for a minute everyday, it was called "hate minute", the speach of the thin bearded man, was played on the news to scare people and fuel their hatred. Later in the book, you discover, that there is no such thing as Goldestein, and that the videos where a creation of INSOG.

Sure, the US wants to controll the middle east and the middle easter people, That is a very big point. And i agree with East Coast kid here.
But at the same time, i also agree with freddieb that they want to turn the US into a police state.

It's not one or the two, it's both.

[edit on 13-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Let me understand - From what you are saying 9/11 had nothing to do with Muslims, Muslim militant organizations and actually it was a CIA operation to scare the good civilians of the US into forfeiting their rights for the sake of more control of the elitists.

If this is true then I can also assume that terrorism everywhere is just 'blamed' on muslims and actually muslims are not behind it.
In Russia its not chechens. In Israel its not Palestinian/Arab organizations. In Algeria its not the fundamentalists. In Iraq its not Mujhadeen fighters. In Europe (Spain, Turkey) and Africa its not Al-Qaida.

Just correct me if I am wrong.

i can't say the CIA was behind the 9/11 attacks...maybe bush just let it happen and used it to his benefit? maybe they were behind the whole thing? all i know for sure is if you bother to read one of the in depth 9/11 timelines, the 'offical story' doesn't add up...that alone should raise some red flags. at the very least this is a case of GROSS incompetence that has since gone completely unpunished, and somehow lead to an invasion of a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by enomus]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
In george orwells 1984 (this one you know too well eastcoast ), there was two themes.

1. The perpetual war. To keep fear and hate within the population going.

2. The cival liberties taken away from the people, by use of fear tactics, "terrorist leader" called Goldestein. His image and his speeches where played on tv for a minute everyday, it was called "hate minute", the speach of the thin bearded man, was played on the news to scare people and fuel their hatred. Later in the book, you discover, that there is no such thing as Goldestein, and that the videos where a creation of INSOG.

Sure, the US wants to controll the middle east and the middle easter people, That is a very big point. And i agree with East Coast kid here.
But at the same time, i also agree with freddieb that they want to turn the US into a police state.

It's not one or the two, it's both.

[edit on 13-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Let me understand - From what you are saying 9/11 had nothing to do with Muslims, Muslim militant organizations and actually it was a CIA operation to scare the good civilians of the US into forfeiting their rights for the sake of more control of the elitists.

If this is true then I can also assume that terrorism everywhere is just 'blamed' on muslims and actually muslims are not behind it.
In Russia its not chechens. In Israel its not Palestinian/Arab organizations. In Algeria its not the fundamentalists. In Iraq its not Mujhadeen fighters. In Europe (Spain, Turkey) and Africa its not Al-Qaida.

Just correct me if I am wrong.

No, your not wrong, your absolutely right. But i must add, it was a CIA/MOSSAD operation not just to get US citizens to forfiet their rights, but so they can have a ticket for perpetual war.

And sure, some terrorism might be done by some muslims. But most it is false flag operations done by those who are the masters of false flag ops. Who benefits, ancienta chinese proverb, .


[edit on 14-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
No, your not wrong, your absolutely right. But i must add, it was a CIA/MOSSAD operation not just to get US citizens to forfiet their rights, but so they can have a ticket for perpetual war.

And sure, some terrorism might be done by some muslims. But most it is false flag operations done by those who are the masters of false flag ops. Who benefits, ancienta chinese proverb, .

Being your name is Syrian sister I can assume you are a Syrian or a sympathizer with the Syrian regime.
In that case that mindset must be real cozy for you! The only question is do you honestly believe it.
You must quiver in anger when people suggest that Arab/Muslim governments perform attricities against there own people as was evident in the Syrian revolts not too long ago, the Lebanese muslim's targeting of Lebanese christians, the Taliban's regime's treatment of women or the Arab world's bad treatment of Palestinian refugees who maintain their horrid conditions in order to 'show the world' what Israel 'did' to the Palestinians. But you can blame without hesitation the CIA and, of course, the Jews, in crime 10 times more horrendous for the sake of clearing your conscience, instead of accepting the fact that these crimes were perpetrated by Arabs/Muslim.

FACT is that Muslim/Arab governments are mostly dictatoral, backward countries with backward and violent populace who have become so because they do not know better. It is ignorance of the masses and relentless brainwashing of its populace to believe the unbelievable.

If you wish we can go into this in depth.

"Being your name is Syrian sister I can assume you are a Syrian or a sympathizer with the Syrian regime."

A sympathizer with the syrian regime? who told you you can assume that? but you can safely assume i am syrian.
The answer to your question, do i honlestly belive it, YEs, with almost every single peace of my being. But i leave one peace behind, the piece of healthy doubt, you must always always question your own belives frequently, that's the way you get to the truth. I think socrates said that.

"You must quiver in anger when people suggest that Arab/Muslim governments perform attricities against there own people as was evident in the Syrian revolts not too long ago,"

No i am never angry from the truth, truth is beauty, beuty is truth, it is all that we need to know. But from what i can see, it seems like your angry when it's suggested the israeli government commits attrocities against it's own people. Like false flag ops.

As for what you say about our treatement of the palestinians. I don't think you are in a position to talk. All i will say, is that the Syrian flag doesn't fly without the palestinian flag flying right besides it.

As for what you say about lebanon , "the Lebanese muslim's targeting of Lebanese christians", why this one sided bias? It was a cival war, and both sides targeted each other, Syria came in and stopped them both.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

Syrian sister,
I attempt to keep civil I will tell you this. Like most of the Arab rhetoric you tend to say plenty without saying anything - Nothing substantial.
I agree with you the you should always question what you are told and never take anything for granted. That is why I am here - to listen to other opinions (although some are plainly idiodic).
I would like to open a dialog about issues. Be it that this forum is about the CIAs involvement in 9/11 I tend to believe that the Arabs performed this attrocity on the grounds that:
1- This was attempted in the early 90s.
2- It was the Arabs who celebrated this acheivement in NYC mosques, in the Palestinian autonomy and other locals around the world. In addition they hold annual celebrations of the events.
3- So far suicide attacks are the Modus operandi of the Muslims. Neither Christians, Jews, nor Hindis engage in this irrational behavior.
4- Moslems gained from the attack in that it proved their strength and strengthened their ranks with Mujhadin fighters and showed the 'strength' of Jihad by striking at the heart of the USA.
5- Numerous indications that the attack was perpetrated by Arabs/Muslims.

You say that most of the 'Muslim' operations are performed by Mossad or CIA as false flag operations. Possibly, but I do not think that they would entail the murder of their own civilians. The US and Israel are not like Arab dictatorships. There is free speech, press and an opposition to yell bloody murder whenever the smallest breech of morality is uncovered. In the Arab world no such luxury exists. The fed to the masses in Syria is strickly controlled and therefore you cannot see the truth.

Syria's brutal regime has occupied Lebanon longer than Israel's stint in South Lebanon. Moreover Syria stopped the fighting in Lebanon stopped the fighting by ridding Lebanon of its massive Christian citizens either by massacreing them or persecuting them to the point where they fled the country - That is called ethnic cleansing.

Syria support of the Palestinians although is the best in the Arab world is still apartheid-like since the Palestinians living in Syria are not Syrian citizens and without the equal rights of Syrians.
Palestinians are not absorbed into their country of 'refuge' since that would mean the annulment of the Palestinian plight and the indirect acceptance of Israel as a country of the Jews.

Juddah,
I don't postulate that there was no involvment by Muslim extremists. I am simply postulating that they, those muslims of the world that are primed and prone to be mainipulated, are manipulated.
This isn't a new concept or a far fetched concept. Read Machiovelli. He provides a very good guideline for how this can and was done in the 17th century.
Doing the same in our time of mass communication and media control would have exponential results. Thinking laterally is a good thing. Not something to be ridiculed.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by freddieb]

Originally posted by freddieb
Thinking laterally is a good thing. Not something to be ridiculed.

Yes but you must base your claims on a shred of evidence. Not heresay or lies.
It is VERY convienient for Arabs to blame CIA and Mossad for 9/11. In Israel we see that same thing. Hamas blows up Israeli school buses, restaurants, religious gatherings and they call it Martyrdom operations that glamorize the Muslim accomplishment. Then you get people who call it Mossad/CIA operations - These are baseless claims and I assume 9/11 is the same old song and dance.

``

von Bulow was also interviewed at

audio asylum
portland.indiamedia
prison planet
newtopia magazine
nesara.us
disc server.com
also freedom files

several elevated & prestigious positions held

but has von Bulow been reduced to a 'Disinformation Agent'?
as his active usefulness to the NWO/Illuminti cabal has also
been reduced to "falling on his sword"
after putting out the CIA-Mossad hypothesis
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

oh, reply to Syrian Sister->>
I think your position does prevail !
....In this forum (also court of public opinion) all manner of 'evidence'
is admissible and has equal weight...(depending on the depth of the presentation & eloquence of the presenter)
...I do not recall any 'exclusionary' rules or boundaries which tend to
shape & direct the free-association character of each thread (case)

Just because the 'Zarqawi' character, or phantom, is continually and
prominantly cited as the perp. or the master-mind behind the insurgency
in Iraq - AQ, does not make that claim a factual reality or true.
I think someones playing the Preponderence-of-Evidence card,
like the say-it-loud-and-often-enough, method of disinformation/propaganda.

upon closer examination, and using the standard 'Beyond A Reasonable Doubt'
there is nothing that proves a 'Zarqawi' is a singular, living, individual
i think we have been conditioned to accept & believe in a 'Zarqawi' character

remember that the 'puppet masters' contrived the guilt of Hoffmann in the Lindeburg Baby Kidnapping
and the sole guilt of Lee H Oswald.
so the 'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is subjective quantity itself

keep on....

[edit on 14-5-2005 by St Udio]

for your sound logic.

I was so upset that i was the lone voice of reason, the definition of evidence seem to have been lost by those who shout the loudest "IT"S ALL THEORIES".

The fact that people like you exist, and are intelligent enough to understand really cheers me up. I was getting quite frustrated before

So long as you realise evidence is evidence, wether you think i am with out a doubt right about my theory is up to you . Even if you didn't think that i quite disproved it without a doubt , i would still be thankfull to you, and your mind.

Hmmm... If I were to threaten people with death, the Mods would justifiably ban me from further participation in ATS.

But when people chant Death to America, subsidisize people who strap explosives to themselves and walk into a crowd of strangers, I'm told we have to listen to what they say, and now, incredibly, to believe that they are not reponsible for thier actions but pawns of some CIA plot.

The CIA has demonstrated it's massive incompetence in all matters since the 60's. The only false flag operation they are running is that they know what they're doing.

I think that the CIA label is one of the biggest misinformation campaigns around today.
I agree, The CIA is nothing more than a laboring beast that gets itself in more trouble than it ever causes. It serves more as a patsy to take the hit when other covert actions go screwy.
Most folks think that the CIA is the only US organization that is involved in covert action. Most people in the US and consequently in the world see it that way.
The reality is that ther are many covert organizations in the US. Many are organizations, within organizations. And most don't know what the other is up to. This is not some new idea. It is the way intelligence and espionage and sabotage is handled. It is an idea called compartmentalization. Many people have a piece of the puzzle but very, very few get to see the puzzle and how each piece fits together.
I have spent many years involved with the military and law enforcement and this has always been SOP. There is no other way to keep a big secret, secret. There are many examples in history of how things leaked out because the wrong person got to see the whole puzzle. Don't be so naive to think that there are not people that eat, sleep and live this school of thinking everyday. This mindset is what makes an intelligence operative. This is their job. Anyone on this board that has been involved with military or law enforcement intelligence operations will tell you the same thing.

Quote: "It is VERY convenient for Arabs to blame CIA and Mossad for 9/11."

Just as it is Very Convenient for the C.I.A. to provide Money & Guns to OBL & his fellow Mujahadeen Jihadis when they were fighting the Communist Soviet Union in Afghanistan! Then when the Soviet Union Collapsed it was like, "OK your Usefulness is over - see you guys later" & Split! Has it not occurred to you that the Arabs are Mad for a Reason? Don't get me wrong Terrorism is a VILE TACTIC - but all of the "Us Americans are All Angels & All them Moslems are Devils" stuff is Obvious Propaganda! That is not "Proof" on who perpetuated the 9/11 Attack - like you said, Nothing Substantial!

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Just as it is Very Convenient for the C.I.A. to provide Money & Guns to OBL & his fellow Mujahadeen Jihadis when they were fighting the Communist Soviet Union in Afghanistan! Then when the Soviet Union Collapsed it was like, "OK your Usefulness is over - see you guys later" & Split! Has it not occurred to you that the Arabs are Mad for a Reason? Don't get me wrong Terrorism is a VILE TACTIC - but all of the "Us Americans are All Angels & All them Moslems are Devils" stuff is Obvious Propaganda! That is not "Proof" on who perpetuated the 9/11 Attack - like you said, Nothing Substantial!

The idea of "my enemy's enemy is my friend" is always convienient. The problem is that everyone has their own agenda. This can make bedfellows into enemies pretty quickly. I do not think that the Arabs are angree brcause of the "see you guys later" reason. The Mujhadin in Afghanistan provided the Taliban regime which is the Islamic regime and what is destined for the world should Mujhadin fighters win in this war (which I highly doubt).
Propaganda is used by both sides - It is not bad - Propaganda is not necessarily lies. WHen propaganda becomes lies then it is bad. That is what the Arabs are using with their CIA/Mossad Propaganda - And it is convienient for them to blame their enemies.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

For real. To buy into the official story is to embrace an insidiously ridiculous ignorance.

Why exactly is that?....

Actually, i think that to buy the wild conspiracies about 9/11 I have read in these forums "is to embrace an insidiously ridiculous ignorance."

You are using a "supposed" operation that "supposedly" was concocted in 1962. Do we have the same people in power in the US now as we did in 1962?... i don't think so.

The US is not Russia, where pretty much the same people have stayed in power after all this time.

BTW, what is it with the information in that link to Northwood operation trying to say that a communist plot would be faked in Miami.... How many people in here don't think that the Russian mafia doesn't have a lot of control of Miami?......and ask any Cuban living in the Miami/Hialeah area if they don't think that castro has spies in the US, and operations against the US.... There was/is no need to make any fake communist plots...


[edit on 14-5-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
Is the very reason i never said i would give Proof.

I said i would DISPROVE, your claim that Zarqawi exists.

I said "i have EVIDENCE, and reasons that support my claim".

Wait a second...first you say that you can't prove a negative, which is true...then you set forth to prove a negative...that is, that Zarqawi does not exist.... In case you don't know and are confuse. Trying to prove that Zarqawi does not exist is a trying to prove a negative.

It would be as me claiming that China does not exist because I have never seen China, even thou there are Chinese people, even thou there have been Chinese news for a very long time, etc, etc...

Quote: "I do not think that the Arabs are Angry because of the "see you guys later" reason."

Well not just that - ALSO the 100% support of "Western Nations" for the Israeli State - as well as said "Western Nations" wanting to SUCK all of the OIL out of the Middle East & have it for themselves - Lots of Money to be made there!

P.S. U.S.A. kept promoting what a MONSTER Saddam Hussein was - Torturing his own people - that the Invasion was justified just on the Basis of Human Rights (Their Last Straw)! That gave the Bush Administration some legroom - until the Abu Gharab Scandal hit! So what is the new Motto/Slogan now?: "USA" we can Torture em' just as good as the Rest!