I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I'm not Arab or Muslim.
You guys, seem to have hijacked this thread that is about a former german Minister of several highly placed agencies saying the same things that other highly placed Americans, British and French officials have said in the past.
This is not the Mujahadim making these statements. It is not Israel who is making these statements.
If you guys want to debate the pros and cons of your fight with one another in a new thread, then please do so.
Both of you factions are not going to waiver or give credence to anything anyone else has to say so, start a new thread where your two factions can argue and name call at will.

I wonder why nobody has interviewed Peter Henschel (Director of Convar in Pirmasens,Germany)? I'm sure he has lots of 9/11 info to share with the American people, esp. the victims families. You'd think CNN,ABC,NBC,AP would have noticed certain angles bending full circle:
Marsh occupied floors 93-100 of WTC North Tower with 1,700 employees. (Coincidentally Mohammed Atta crashed into WTC North floors 93-98: aiming?)
Next to United Airlines, Marsh had the highest spike in put options.
WTC recovered hard drives were sent to Convar.
Convar bought by Kroll.
Kroll bought by Marsh & McLennan.

I think it has become painfully obvious that the mainstream media isn't interested in persuing any story that detracts from the one that the government has pronounced to be the "truth".
There are many parts of the equation that don't fit with the sum that is presented.
The press, for over 200 years was seen and presented as one of the checks and balances that existed in our system of what is supposed to be a representation of a free republic. That check on the system has been eliminated. There is no such thing as investigative reporting today. I fear that this has become a thing of the past.
The press today more resembles the Pravda of the 1970's in the old USSR.
This is sad.

Quote: "This is not the Mujahadim making these statements. It is not Israel who is making these statements.
If you guys want to debate the pros and cons of your fight with one another in a new thread, then please do so."

Let me ask you a question - what do you think the "War on Terror" is all about? 9/11 = the "Global War on Terror" or "WWIII" (I have a feeling that this started WAAAY before 9/11/2001 BTW - More like Mid 1990's)? This is in fact a Clash of Civilizations/Religions/Ideologies/Mentalities!

It is not a question of whether Criminal Terrorists Exist - Obviously they do! It is in the Governments Interest to Shape what the Image of the "Terrorist Enemy" is in the Publics Mind & inform them that they are dealing with the Problem. This is done THROUGH the Media. OK so there are many Proven Terrorists that are
Moslem Extremists!

My next question is as follows: is a Criminal Gangster - who wears a Suit & Tie - not also a "Terrorist"? Can a Corrupt Politician be a Criminal & Terrorist? Can a Rouge/Corrupt Intelligence Agency (like the C.I.A. or Mossad = Shin Beth) also be "Terrorists"? The Governments of the World have MORE than Demonstrated their Hypocrisy, Empty Rhetoric & Lies at this point. They have stepped DEEP in the Muck by declaring a
"War on Terror" - because they are just as involved in the "Terrorist" business as the rest!

Does Showing Pictures of OBL & Arab Moslems Over & Over again in the Media with a flashing Enemy sign over them "Prove" that they executed the 9/11 Attack? Just what happens when you dig into Al-Qeada - just were do they get their funding for their Terrorist Operations - I would not be too Surprised when you find that it comes from the very Governments that have Supposedly declared "War" on them if I were you!


[edit on 15-5-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Does Showing Pictures of OBL & Arab Moslems Over & Over again in the Media with a flashing Enemy sign over them "Prove" that they executed the 9/11 Attack? Just what happens when you dig into Al-Qeada - just were do they get their funding for their Terrorist Operations - I would not be too Surprised when you find that it comes from the very Governments that have Supposedly declared "War" on them if I were you!

The funding of Al-qaida is from OBL himself and allied countries - Iran- when it sees fit. Remember the OBL is a billionare?
Intelligence and logistical support of the terrorist organizations are from Al-qaida, Iran, Hezbullah, Syria, Sadaam era Iraq. All these entities have an interest in supporting Al-Qaida - Terrorist clandestine organizations are a favorite in the Arab world.
I know what you say: CIA/Mossad are also clandestine terrorist organizations. Wrong! they do NOT target by policy or by strategy non-combatants! That is the difference.

I don't claim to know everything or even very much.
I do think however that our (the US and Israel) policies and actions of the past created a extremely flammable situation that enabled the manipulation of things and people, resulting in the status quo today.
I think we were probably doing what we thought was important to do at the time. I think it was a case of being so caught up in the battle, that we put the war in jeopardy.
I believe that we've missed a great opportunities since 1967 to mend these fences and to allow both sides to extricate themselves without losing face.
That is very important in global politics. We have denied both sides that opportunity.
I don't point an accusing finger at Mossad, or the CIA or any other organization for 9/11. OBL admitted on tape, Al Q's involvement. That is without debate. I don't think he did it alone, however.
But, there are things about the 9/11 incident and the way the aftermath and subsequent investigation was handled that don't add up and do not resemble anything close to honesty.
This former German Minister poses some very interesting hypothesis'. What he says is plausible and possible. How far, he is right, I don't know.
Niether do you.
If we allow ourselves to be blinded by our religions and/or our national fervor to the point that we can only see things from one point of view, then the whole question isn't worth debating. Let's just start dropping bombs.
And whoever walks away at the end can write the history.
However if finding the unvarnished truth is important to anyone then let's just suppose that some of what he said could be true.
And by the way Jacob. I've served in the Middle East. Let's don't pretend Mossad is a bunch of boy scouts.
And Syrian Sister, I've been there. Hezzbolah, and the PLO are not benevolent, humanitarian organizations. Likewise, on my end, the CIA,the NSA, and DIA aren't all about feeding the children either. So let's end that pretense now.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "This is not the Mujahadim making these statements. It is not Israel who is making these statements.
If you guys want to debate the pros and cons of your fight with one another in a new thread, then please do so."

Let me ask you a question - what do you think the "War on Terror" is all about? 9/11 = the "Global War on Terror" or "WWIII" (I have a feeling that this started WAAAY before 9/11/2001 BTW - More like Mid 1990's)? This is in fact a Clash of Civilizations/Religions/Ideologies/Mentalities!




[edit on 15-5-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

All I'm saying is that this thread is not about that. It is about a former German minister making some accusations that seem plausible. If a debate on who's the bad guy in the Middle East is what is going to happen, then it should happen in a thread of it's own
I think you've made my point. Guilt is not established becuase one side points a finger and says enemy.
A terrorist is a terrorist no matter whether he is a politician inciting others or if he is a bomber deluded into thinking that he or she is dying for some great cause.

[edit on 15-5-2005 by freddieb]

That's not all they said juda, that's not all they did either.

Eye witness accounts say, that they where cheering loudly, they took photographs of themselves smiling with the destruction behind them, and one of the threw a cigeratte at it . Read the sources.

Muslims died that day too. One of them was a firefighter who run into the twin towers to save people.

As for Osama , al Qaeda and CO, i have 4 words for you, george orwell, 1984, "goldestein".

Syrian Sister I think I understand your point.
We on all sides are being manipulated within our own spheres and the divisions that exist naturally and that are "created" are being used as part of an attempt to prevent us from seeing the larger picture. Is that it?

Originally posted by Syrian Sister
That's not all they said juda, that's not all they did either.

Eye witness accounts say, that they where cheering loudly, they took photographs of themselves smiling with the destruction behind them, and one of the threw a cigeratte at it . Read the sources.

Muslims died that day too. One of them was a firefighter who run into the twin towers to save people.

As for Osama , al Qaeda and CO, i have 4 words for you, george orwell, 1984, "goldestein".

Believe all you want!
Acording to your theory the cunning Mossad had 4 of these idiots on their payroll, they were involved in the 911 atrocity and they were stupid enough to act like total imbeciles on a rooftop yelling and screaming with joy as the WTC collapsed.
You gotta admit it just doesn't seem right. If they were involved in the 'false-flag' operation they would not have exposed themselves in such a blatant way.

But then again I assume you would prefer to believe that than the fact that a fellow Sunni Muslim organization did it regardless of all the facts pointing in that direction. I mean its more convienient.

Syrian sister,

I am not saying that all Muslims are responsible. THere are many good Muslims out there. Problem is that Muslims never seem to admit their wrongdoings. They are always making up sorry excuses for their shortcomings and refuse to deal with it in a constructive manner with the purpose of correcting those issues. And you make a perfect example of it with your denial of OBL part in 9/11, the bombing in Spain, Turkey and all the other Al-Qaida activities.



[edit on 15/5/05 by JudahMaccabbi]

JudahMaccabbi - what I am saying is this, Saudi Arabia funds Al-Qeada, yet the U.S. is still Allies with Saudi Arabia! You see pictures of Bush kissing the A** of Saudi Arabian Royalty – why (?) because we are addicted to OPEC OIL! We even station U.S. Troops in Saudi Arabia (that was one of the Reasons OBL listed to Declare War on the U.S. BTW)! If Bush was Serious - don't you think that we would have an Organized plan as a Country to Consume less OIL (or at least Foreign Oil) by now? Don't you think that he would CRITICIZE Saudi Arabia for spreading the "Extremist" Brand of Islam?

In addition the CIA Funded, Supplies & Trained Al-Qeada in the 80's in the fight against the Communist Soviet Union. After the Soviet Union collapsed the Terrorists retained their Skills & made US = "U.S.A." their new Target! The Bush family has had a direct connection to the CIA for a LONG TIME! The point that I am trying to make is that the whole War is a SHAM! We just keep going around & around in a Circle! As a Nation we are Financing our own Enemies! We Kill a Few Hundred Terrorists & Simultaneously create a Few Thousand more! We have to STOP LIEING to Ourselves as a Nation First before we can ever win a War against Terrorism!

Quote: "OBL admitted on tape, Al Q's involvement. That is without debate."

You have got to be kidding me right? "Without Debate" - did you forget that this is America? Excuse me - I am not a Sheep - I have a Thinking Mind & this is what it came up with: What if that Particular Tape was a FAKE or what if Bin Laden - knowing that he would get the wrap for it anyway went along with the "Script". Various Terrorist Organizations take credit for events that they didn't actually do all the time you know! Who am I supposed to turn to in order to analyze whether the Tape was fake or not - the same C.I.A. that told us that it was a "Slam Dunk" that IRAQ had Weapons of Mass Destruction? Or the same F.B.I. which informed the American Public who the "Hijackers" were on 9/11 but then admitted - MUCH later - that they didn't have any Solid Evidence & that many of these "Suspects" were actually STILL ALIVE & were never in the U.S. (they are Foreign Nationals)! Obviously not all of these people could have been the Terrorist Hijackers of 9/11 right - yet I turned on MSNBC just recently - like a couple of days ago & they did it again - they flashed up the Images of 19 "Arab Terrorist Suspects" & then said these were the Hijackers of 9/11! This non-sense is getting us nowhere!


[edit on 15-5-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Hitler always said that "the bigger the lie, the easier it is to believe". There is too much contradictory evidence to support the "Official Truth" proposed by the government. I remember tuning into CNN in time to see the second plane hit. I was speechless and didn't know how to react, however following the coverage I witnessed the buildings going down and said to my friends that that just didn't seem right. If they had planned to demolish the WTC they couldn't have had such a perfect collapse.

The main contradictions are this(in no specific order)

-why did it take so long for NORAD to react, totally against policy?
-why did the buildings collapse when firefighters said the fires were mostly under control and most structural engineers I've seen on TV said it was impossible for the buildings to weaken so severely given the short duration of the fire
-why so many attempts to derail the investigation into 9/11 attacks by Bush Co.
-the market plundering taken against the only two airlines who would suffer by this
-they admitedly "pulled WTC 7" when it only suffered superficial damage
-most of the highjackers were Saudi, why wasn't there action taken against Saudi Arabia?
-How could the intelligence community the drop the ball so badly when all indications of something going to happen were there.



The questions that must be asked are:

1:Who benefited from 9/11?

2:Why were the attacks carried out, to gain what purpose?

3:Was an "Operation Northwoods" style of campaign launched against the American people and the world in order to further a police state agenda?


My own personal answers to the above:

1:Oil companies, military contractors, supply companies, pharmaceutical, emergency supply companies, gun & ammunition manufacturers, politicians in the US. Nothing rallies support for the Administration like "WAR".

The US economy was entering a recession prior to 9/11, along comes a war and the market bounces back. Wars have been used before to jump start an economy.

2:From an Al-Qaeda perspective the 9/11 attacks would do much to rally the extremists around them but I feel it would distance the rest of the muslim world from them as the attacks would bring war to most Muslim countries in time. The war in Afghanistan was laughable if anything. Usama was given a 2 month head start and was more for show to the American people in order to show that they were doing something to vindicate 9/11 but it was only a beginning point to a campaign to destabilize the Muslim world. Bob Woodwards book "Plan of Attack" shows that BushCo. had a hard-on for Iraq before 9/11 and had already started military planning for an invasion of Iraq.

I think this whole war on terror is really about power and greed.

3:If you've read any of the documentation about Op. Northwood and reviewed any of the material related to the JFK assassination you can see similarities between those and 9/11. If you wanted to go to war with another country with really no justification(WMDs in Iraq??" you would need an event that would rally the American people behind a war. 9/11 happens and the US has justification to strip away civil liberties in the name of "National Security" has an open door to conflict with any country it deems necessary"You're either with us or against us...G.W. Bush" and war means money into the pockets of the people that pay for your re-election. The evidence for 9/11 was in hand before the attacks were even carried out. Why did Bush react so calmly in the classroom when told of the events? It would not have been unreasonable for him to excuse himself and leave to deal with the tragedy, I think it's because he already knew what was happening and was playing his part in it.

You may think I'm paranoid, that's ok with me. I see to many inconsistencies in the "Official Truth" to believe we are being told the absolute truth about the matter. The dramatic shift in American policies since 9/11 are frightening to say the least.

Let's not also forget that the CIA has been conducting these sorts of operations against other countries for decades and "Operation Mongoose" was run from Florida during the early 60's waging non-stop covert ops against Castro trying to destabilize Cuba.

It's a scary world we live in and is getting scarier by the day. Hopefully the "sheeple" as some call the average American citizen will wakeup and realize that terrible atrocities are being carried out in their name and that those actions have consequences.

Peace in the Middle East,

I'm out,

Deez

Whatever the avenue taken. I think there is a big plan to cause global chaos, use that chaos to suspend any resemblance to the human rights we've enjoyed in this country and in other developed countries, make big bucks, gain an un-godly amount of power, gain total control of the masses,
and consolidate power for an elite that has an us against them attitude for the rest of the populace of the world.

I know that sounds like something a conspiracy nut would say. So I'm coming out. I'm A Conspiracy Nut.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

I am not saying that all Muslims are responsible. THere are many good Muslims out there. Problem is that Muslims never seem to admit their wrongdoings. They are always making up sorry excuses for their shortcomings and refuse to deal with it in a constructive manner with the purpose of correcting those issues. And you make a perfect example of it with your denial of OBL part in 9/11, the bombing in Spain, Turkey and all the other Al-Qaida activities.

I never denied OBL's part of it, OBL works for the Traitors in the US government, so ofcource he is a part of it. He, or if that CIA is already dead, an actor that plays him, keeps popping out videos whenver the you know who's needs it. The videos are holiwood produced, they REEK of it, put it this way, he said in what of his videos, that "zarqawi' was a prince... a prince? What are we living in the ancient lands of the times of arabia, a thousand and one nights? HAH, who ever gave him say that, must have thought himself clever and he probably thought he was mimicking "arabic culture". It made me laugh for days... no i can't help it, i'm still laughing.

Did you ever think for a momment we may be right? about all of it? I'm sure the communists at the time, where crying "We had nothing to do with the reichstag fire". No one heard, but they where right.

Juda, i like you, because even though earlier, i could FEEL the seething hate beneath your words, which you unsuccesfully tried to hide. Don't deny it , i felt it most when you said "i'll try to be civil".

I like you, because your intelligent. It would be a pleasure to argue with you. Unlike some people who are DENSE and frustratingly stupid, who pose no challange what so ever.

I would love to continue this arguement with you, But i don't want to disrespect the people that made this forum. So please forgive me, but i'm just going to keep talking about the german minister.

You know, you and I have the same enemy, your enemy is my enemy is the enemy of everyone. You know who that is? The devil, iblis.

That makes us comrades.


[edit on 16-5-2005 by Syrian Sister]

CIA, DIA , Mossd and virtually all INTEL agencies from all countries have shady characters as their assets.
That's just the nature of that business.
I thought it very comical some years back that members of congress, of all people, expressed dismay and concern that our INTEL groups would be working with shady, criminal types.
What type of people did they think were capable of being turned? An asset generally only becomes an asset for a couple of reasons. Money and freedom from prosecution or blackmail.
Patriots, clean patriots can't be turned. That's why, when necessary, our INTEL folks will do criminal things themselves in order to set-up those patriot idealist to force their cooperation.
That's just how the game is played. It's a dirty business. That's why you don't have just anybody involved in that type of thing. It takes a special type of person.
I'm not making a judgment. That's just how it is.


[edit on 16-5-2005 by freddieb]