I've thought about this for a while, but my interest recently peaked, now that I have taken an intro archaeology class. The textbooks I have focused a lot on the ancient Greco-Roman cultures, but ancient cultures of the Near East were also covered. The very fact that Egypt was included was good, but also a bit confusing. Nevertheless, my problem isn't with this class; it's with the trend, in both the media and academia, to separate ancient Egypt from the rest of ancient Africa.

Sadly, the biggest reason for this I can see is racism. Now, I am not saying that Egypt was a black African civilization only; anyone who does say this is a fool. Based on the geography of Egypt, the people undoubtedly came from various reasons. But, I also think it is equally foolish to assume that there were no black African Egyptians.

I base my opinion on what I have learned on the subject and on artifacts and artwork I have seen from Egypt. It's funny to me that it is accepted that the Greeks and Romans were a group of different people from the same region, but this view is overlooked and scarcely mentioned when it comes to the Egyptians.

I admire all the ancient civilizations for what they accomplished, don't get me wrong. I am also intrigued by the weird stuff they did (boy, those ancients were into some weird stuff sometimes). Bluntly, I have a problem with this trend of looking at the Egyptians; I see it as nothing more but a means of taking away an African contribution to the world. The whole thing is pretty sad, but such is the way with things, I guess...

Well, post any thoughts or comments on this.

From everything I've heard and read on the subject (which isn't much mind you), it seems to me that the main difference in the treatment stems mainly from the granduer of the Egyptian finds. Granted, many other cultures have pyramids and their own heiroglyphic writings, but not to the extravagance of the Egyptians. Also, you must remember that the Egyptian culture came massively into popular media's attention around the 1920's, with the find of Tut. That was around the time that mass distribution of information was first able to be quickly spread worldwide with reasonable accuracy. The findings came in and for whatever reason, people ate it up. In fact, I believe the lobby of the Empire State building was designed with an Egyptian motif, as were a lot of buildings being thrown up at the time (I could be wrong on that--I remember hearing something about it on the History Channel I think, but I can't remember for sure.)

I think the mystique of the Egyptians piqued mass culture much more than that of the remainer of Africa, and some of the greatest finds came at just the right time, when it was starting to be a lot easier to get that information into the layperson's hands. My opinion, at least

Thanks for the info Marg. I have heard of Diop, but the other stuff is news to me. I'll check out your links when I have some time.

You're right about the African influence, too.

MCory1, you have a point with the grandeur of the finds in Egypt, but that doesn't excuse the way this subject has been biased. The findings in Greece and Rome are great, too, but you don't see the same bias in this case. Until the 60's, the archaeologists were claiming Egypt as a European civilization, and that is obviously false.

Or maybe it was the fact that America has such a skewed perception on the georgraphical location of Egypt in relationship to Africa along with well...we have hollywood to blame for this one, the biggest influencer on American Culture in history. I mean, we all know that the historical African Queen Cleopatra is undoubtly caucasian, I mean who can contest that? Just take a look below, hollywood can't be wrong.



Cleopatra, 1963, Liz Taylor

Look at the statue of nephirtiti for example, her features are not african, their caucasion, she has thin lips and a narrow nose.

"Yes many scholars will completly disregard all the influence of Africans in ancient civilizations in Europe. "

What are you talking about? what influences in europe, back this statement up.

Originally posted by Trustnone
Look at the statue of nephirtiti for example, her features are not african, their caucasion, she has thin lips and a narrow nose.

"Yes many scholars will completly disregard all the influence of Africans in ancient civilizations in Europe. "

What are you talking about? what influences in europe, back this statement up.

Look at the bust of Queen Tiy. She has dark skin and full lips. King Tut has "black" features too. There are plenty other artifacts you can check out.

As for your second statement, the Greeks were significantly influenced by the Egyptians. The Moors had Spain for like a 1000 years, no doubt there's influence there.

But, Cleopatra was not native to Egypt. I can't recall where she was from now, but I know she was not Egyptian. But, I have heard she was quite the fellater...and there's nothing wrong with that in my books.

"I admire all the ancient civilizations for what they accomplished, don't get me wrong. I am also intrigued by the weird stuff they did (boy, those ancients were into some weird stuff sometimes). Bluntly, I have a problem with this trend of looking at the Egyptians; I see it as nothing more but a means of taking away an African contribution to the world. The whole thing is pretty sad, but such is the way with things, I guess..."

Ok, riddle me this, if these contibutions to egypt are african in origin why are there no such structures elsewhere in africa? why only ones in the one country with access to the mediteranean? Why do we not find these structures farther south in africa? Answer: The knowledge came elsewhere, not saying i know where, and dont take this as a "rascist" statement but how can people who havent evolved enough to use bows and arrows and throw spears build the pyramids? At least the indians had developed these, and everybody overlooks the main african contribution to the world, Slave labor.

Maybe the reason we consider Egypt unique in Africa is that

(1) We have evidence of an early Egyptian-Hellenic "hybrid" in the Minoan culture;

(2) Egypt had huge structures unmatchend anywhere in the ancient world;

(3) Egypt had writing.

(4) Egypt figured prominately in the Mosaic mythos; and

(5) Lots of people travelled to Egypt from the time of Alexander up to the present.

I can't think of any other location in Africa prior to two millennia ago which had any of those characteristics, can you?

Admittedly, some of the most brilliant scholars of the early Christian Church were in North Africa, but tha wasn't until around 200 AD. And, of course, Great Zimbabwe wasn't anything until about 1000 AD.

But Egypt exerted a profound influence on Western civilization, and it was the only African place in ancient times that did so!

It isn't 'racism' if there was nothing of long-term import to civilization south of the Sahara up through a thousand years ago. It's just the way it is.

Originally posted by Trustnone

What are you talking about? what influences in Europe, back this statement up.

Yes...........also white supremacy groups make sure that black scholars and historians were no taken in consideration when it comes with black roots in Europe.

What a pity.

How much you know your history my friend.

Offthestreet, can you please explain to me how it is easier to cross a huge desert or cross a sea to a delta to Egypt, rather than take the Nile River north to it? The Nile was the life of ancient Egypt, and it flows north; surely it would be easier to reach it this way?

Trustnone, that last statement was bull, so I won't respond to it.

Bottom line is, none of us were there; that's why I mentioned the artworks of the Egyptians. Damn, is it really that hard to admit that there were black African Egyptians? I already said that not all were, but only a fool would say that none were. Seriously.

Originally posted by Simulacra
Or maybe it was the fact that America has such a skewed perception on the georgraphical location of Egypt in relationship to Africa along with well...we have hollywood to blame for this one, the biggest influencer on American Culture in history. I mean, we all know that the historical African Queen Cleopatra is undoubtly caucasian, I mean who can contest that? Just take a look below, hollywood can't be wrong.

Cleopatra, 1963, Liz Taylor

I totally agree on this topic, about Ancient African culture and contributions not being "recognized" in this Age we live in with all of it's NEW technology and science and still nothing changes....

Now about the portrayl of a Cleopatra in Hollywood LOL.. Well Cleopatra was not African by a longshot.. She was of the ptolemy Family if i am not mistaken and this is GREEK... many rulers went into Eygpt and conquered, and this was just one of many "Races".
Cleopatra was the last in a line of Ptolemies--Macedonian Greeks. But there is still some doubts about her father who may have been the product of a concubine from Nubia or Alexandria.... And from what i have read... SHE WAS A GREAT RULER, but not all that pretty... LOl.. There was a coin found dating back to her reign and it was not really pretty... But " beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
I would like to also say that as time passes and more discoveres made (Arheological and Scientific ) We will get to the bottom of all these unanswered questions

Great post, AgentGirl!

You refreshed my memory, Cleopatra was indeed Greek. I couldn't place her origin at the time, but you are right. And, you are also right that she was a good ruler, but not so good in the looks department. OK, she was pretty hideous, but that's only in my eyes.

Marge, talking about "racism" or "white supremacy" when asked for examples is a cop-out.

If you can think of a Black African culture which left its mark on the Classical world -- either because of its trading, cities, writing, inventions, literature or anything else -- then tell us what it is.

Egypt served as a meeting place for people from Africa, the Medditeran, Asia and Europe. So there were alot of contributions made, shared etc... between these cultures. Not only in this area in Africa, but also Western Africa. Like the First University TIMBUKTU

I guess the BIGGEST question here is WHAT IS CAUCASIAN and WHAT IS BLACK AFRICAN?

Have you seenwhat is classified as Caucasian and what is not classified as black? These are ONLY LABELS... and in time.. They always change.... try this one ... This is from the US Census ok
White: A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as "White" or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Near Easterner, Arab, or Polish. Do Germans look like Arabs?

[edit on 5/2/2005 by AgentGirl]
It's all one big MESS if u ask me

[edit on 5/2/2005 by AgentGirl]

truthseeka says:

Offthestreet, can you please explain to me how it is easier to cross a huge desert or cross a sea to a delta to Egypt, rather than take the Nile River north to it? The Nile was the life of ancient Egypt, and it flows north; surely it would be easier to reach it this way?

I don’t understand your question. It’s probably a lot easier to follow the Nile to its mouth than to cross the desert, but only if you limit your Nile travel to the first cataract.

But remember, Nefertiti’s voyages, like those of Hanno and the other Carthaginian explorers of the 400 BC time frame, were via the Mediterranean, out through the Pillars of Hercules and down the west coast of Africa (some people think that Hanno and Nefertiti both made it to the Cape of Good Hope, although no one knows for sure).

But why are you asking me? Was there something in my post that implied anything about desert travel versus sea travel or travel up the Nile?

Damn, is it really that hard to admit that there were black African Egyptians? I already said that not all were, but only a fool would say that none were. Seriously.

The point of this thread was why our history emphasized Egyptian civilization at the expense of other African civilizations, and my answer was that Egypt had an ancient civilization, and as far as I know, no other sub-Saharan African culture did have a civilization (if by “civilization” we mean language, literature, monuments, buildings, history, etc.

Whether or not the ancient Egyptians were Nilotic, Norwegian, or anything else is irrelevant to the point of the thread.

OK, Offthestreet, I get your point.

I'll post some other examples of African civilizations. I'm not surprised that you don't know of any African civilizations besides Egypt; hell, I am all about learning about Africa, but I know little as of now. It's a shame that I have to look up this info on my own, though.

Uh, I am surprised no one knows.... Egypt ISN'T Africa, it is Middle East. Egyptians are arab, not black. That is why it is seperated from Africa, for it is an arabic nation, not a black nation. Does no one know this? Like Brazil is not a spanish nation, it is a portugese nation, stuck on a spanish continent. Or how Russia is an "Asian" country yet not asian, like Japan, Korea, China, so forth.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, I am surprised no one knows.... Egypt ISN'T Africa, it is Middle East. Egyptians are arab, not black. That is why it is seperated from Africa, for it is an arabic nation, not a black nation. Does no one know this? Like Brazil is not a spanish nation, it is a portugese nation, stuck on a spanish continent. Or how Russia is an "Asian" country yet not asian, like Japan, Korea, China, so forth.

Ok, how many Egyptians have you met?

I have met several, and most were black, though not black American like me. My brother's friend is Egyptian, but he is Arab. He also has Egyptian friends who are Arab. So, what do you say to that, James, never mind the fact that we are speaking of ANCIENT Egypt, not MODERN Egypt. They were not Arab in ancient times.