The Case for Roswell: Part IV (Section B) Conclusion Thread

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posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 08:07 AM
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THE CASE FOR ROSWELL PART IV

The Aftermath
Section B (Ramifications and Discovery)

Part I can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part II can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section B can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section C can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section D can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part III, Section E can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...
Part IV, Section A can be seen here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Again, fair warning that this is going to be a long read…but I wanted to be very thorough. I’d highly recommend reading the first parts before going on, as there is no recapping here…
Upon completion of this thread, I’ll be posting all parts in one long post for easier reference. Now we get into what happened after the Roswell Incident was silenced.

Late July 1947

A deeply upset Mac Brazel tells the Stricklands (his neighbors) what happened in Roswell. Through he complains bitterly about his treatment there, he honors his oath of secrecy and says nothing about what he found.



Marian Strickland was a neighbor of Mac Brazel. Marian Strickland was interviewed in 1990.

Mac made it plain he was not supposed to tell that there was any excitement about the material he found on the ranch. He was a man who had integrity. He definitely felt insulted, misused and disrespected. He was worse than annoyed. He was definitely under some stress, and felt that he had been kicked around.

He was threatened that if he opened his mouth, he might get thrown in the back side of the jail. He gave that impression, definitely.

www.qsl.net...

Bill Brazel (Mac’s son) finds one of the pieces of foil-like material his father had described. Brazel shows this bit of debris to Sally Strickland (later Tadolini after marriage).



(1) My name is Sally Strickland Tadolini

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am employed as: XXXXXXXX ( )I am retired.

(4) In July 1947, I was nine years old and lived with my parents, Lyman and Marian Strickland, and my two brothers on our ranch in Lincoln County, New Mexico. The neighboring ranch was the Foster place, which was managed by William W. ("Mac") Brazel. His house was about 10 miles from ours.

(5) I remember my parents talking about Mac Brazel finding a lot of unusual debris in one of his pastures and that there was a great deal of excitement about it among the neighbors. I recall the adults at first thought it was some kind of newfangled weather balloon, then deciding, no, there was no way it could be anything like that. I also recall that, later, the neighbors talked about how badly Mac Brazel had been treated, and that when he came back to the ranch, he never wanted to talk about what he had found.

(6) A week or so after all the excitement, Mac's son Bill, who was quite a bit older and married [added later: I am not certain that he was married at that time], stopped by our house. He had someone with him, and while I am not absolutely certain, I think it was his brother Vernon, who was my age. We--my father, brothers, myself, and possibly my mother--sat at the kitchen table with them. Bill showed us a piece of the thing his father had found, and he asked us not to say anything about it.

(7) What Bill showed us was a piece of what I still think of as fabric. It was something like aluminum foil, something like satin, something like well-tanned leather in its toughness, yet it was not precisely like any one of these materials. While I do not recall this with certainty, I think the fabric measured about four by eight or ten inches. Its edges, which were smooth, were not exactly parallel, and its shape was roughly trapezoidal. It was about the thickness of very fine kidskin glove leather and a full metallic grayish silver, one side slightly darker than the other. I do not remember it having any design or embossing on it.

(8) Bill passed it around, and we all felt of it [sic]. I did a lot of sewing, so the feel made a great impression on me. It felt like no fabric I have touched before or since. It was very silky or satiny, with the same texture on both sides. Yet when I crumpled it in my hands, the feel was like that you notice when you crumple a leather glove in your hand. When it was released, it sprang back into its original shape, quickly flattening out with no wrinkles. I did this several times, as did the others. I remember some of the others stretching it between their hands and "popping" it, but I do not think anyone tried to cut or tear it.


Initialled 9/27/93


Also, late in July, the 26th to be exact, less than a month after the event, the National Security Act completely overhauled the entire defense department and created the Air Force, the CIA, and even the National Security Council. This act seemed to have been hastily conceived, even signed by Truman while aboard his plane, the Douglas VC-54C “Sacred Cow” (personally, I think the newer “Air Force 1” designation is a big improvement, hehe…) So, with this act, we’ve got centralized intelligence, all being funneled into one agency, with a council of overseers. Admittedly, the connection to Roswell here is merely speculative, but I find it suspicious that such a drastic overhaul would be put into effect without a LOT of pre-planning. Like the more recent establishment of the Department of Homeland Security, this appears to be more in response to a crisis, than a pre-planned reorganization. Indeed, compared to how long it took the DoHS to come into effect (which bureaucratically speaking, was pretty quickly), the 1947 overhaul is almost overnight.

August 1947

Mac Brazel and ranch hand Tommy Tyree spot a piece of wreckage floating in the water at the bottom of a sinkhole. Neither man bothers to climb down to retrieve it. (from interviews and statements) Not a particulary important happening, but at least worth mentioning.

September 1947

Lewis S. Rickett is assigned to assist Dr Lincoln La Paz from the University of New Mexico. La Paz's assignment is to determine, if possible, the speed and trajectory of the craft when it hit. According to Rickett, they discover a touchdown point five miles from the debris field where the sand has crystallized, apparently from the heat, and they find more of the foil-like material. La Paz, who apparently does not know that bodies were recovered, concludes that the object was an unoccupied probe from another planet.


CIC Master Sergeant Lewis “Bill” Rickett (NCOIC)



Two months later, in September 1947, Rickett was given another field assignment. He was ordered to assist Manhattan Project scientist Dr. Lincoln La Paz, from the University of New Mexico at Albuquerque. La Paz was a famous meteor expert, as well as a nuclear scientist, and had just arrived at the base in Roswell after being briefed in Washington, D.C. La Paz and Rickett's assignment was to determine the speed and trajectory of the object that impacted north of town.

According to Rickett, he and La Paz discovered a possible touchdown point about five miles northwest of the debris field. Not only did they recover identical material as that which Rickett had handled before, they were startled to find that the sand in the high-desert terrain had crystallized, apparently as a result of exposure to tremendous heat.

They spent a total of three weeks interviewing witnesses and making their calculations, which were contained in La Paz's official report. Rickett never had a chance to see the document, which was delivered directly to the Pentagon. The professor did confide to the plainclothes intelligence specialist that, based on all the physical evidence they'd collected and tested, the original object was an "unmanned interplanetary probe."

www.scifi.com...

Glenn Dennis learns that his nurse friend has been killed. A letter returned as undeliverable indicates the addressee is deceased. Nurses at the Roswell base tell him that she was killed in an aircraft accident while stationed in London, England. (this is from Dennis’ testimony, cited earlier)

November 1947

Arthur Exon, assigned at Wright Field, flies over the debris field and the impact site. The tracks of the trucks and jeeps are still visible, as is the gouge. Exon was a Lt. Colonel at Wright Field during incident. He was later stationed at the Pentagon. He retired as a Brig. General. Though he admits to not having first hand knowledge of the debris, he was familiar with it through personnel involved. His first hand account is primarily in the fly-over of the debris field and impact site, and reinforces the accounts given by others.

roswellproof.homestead.com...

September 1948

Rickett, while in Albuquerque, meets with La Paz. La Paz remains convinced that an unoccupied probe from another planet crashed in New Mexico the year before. In his secret dealings with various government projects La Paz has found nothing to cause him to change his mind.



One year later, Rickett met once again with Dr. La Paz, this time in Albuquerque. La Paz remained convinced that the object which crashed near Corona, N.M., was from another planet. In all his confidential meetings with various government agencies, he said, he had learned nothing which contradicted that position


Same link as above

October 1948

Rickett meets with John Wirth, another CIC agent. Rickett asks Wirth about the status of the material recovered at Roswell and is told that they had yet to figure it out. According to Wirth, they hadn't been able to cut it.



The very next month, while on assignment in Washington, D.C., Rickett met with fellow counterintelligence agent John Wirth. Rickett asked about the status of the materials recovered at Roswell the previous year. According to Wirth, the government's top researchers had yet to identify its metallurgic content and still "hadn't been able to cut it."


Same link as above

Summer 1950

From time to time in the two years following the crash, Bill Brazel has found "scraps" of the craft. His father confirms this, saying, "That looks like some of the contraption I found." Bill Brazel, in Corona, mentions his discoveries. The next day Captain Armstrong and three others from the Roswell base arrive and ask for the material. Armstrong reminds Brazel that his dad cooperated with them. It is the younger Brazel's patriotic duty to give it up. Brazel can't think of a good reason to deny it to them and surrenders it. (according to Bill Brazel’s testimony).

Skeptics point out that they can find no records for this Captain Armstrong at RAAF. Interestingly enough though, Brazel isn’t the only one to describe the red-haired captain, nor the only one to name him by name. Gerald Anderson, a young boy at the time, also independently mentions the captain by name, and the red hair. Many other witnesses (such as Glenn Dennis) have identified this red-headed captain, but didn’t recall the name. Whether a member of a covert group, or a casualty of the records fire, or even more simply, not attached to the base, who knows, but we’ve still got numerous witnesses pointing out and naming this man.

1952

Major Ellis Boldra, an engineer stationed at Roswell, discovers samples of the debris locked in a safe in the engineering office. In the course of his experiments, he tries to burn and melt it with an acetylene torch and to cut it with a large variety of tools. Although extremely thin, the metal resists his efforts. When crumpled, it quickly returns to its original shape.



Boldra subjected the sample to a number of tests. It was thin, incredibly strong, and dissipated heat in some manner. Boldra used an acetylene torch on the material, which didn't melt and barely got warm. It didn't glow when heated, and once the flame was removed, it could be handled in seconds. Boldra tried to cut it with a variety of tools and failed. No one remembers if he tried to drill through it. One of Boldra's friends said that it wasn't any type of metal that he could identify. (Randle & Schmidt, interviews with Boldra’s son and friends)


1969

As Americans walk on the moon, Melvin F. Brown tells his family that he has seen the wreckage of an extraterrestrial craft and the bodies of the crew. He assisted in the recovery; taking the bodies into Roswell.


Sgt. Melvin Brown



Melvin E. Brown, a sergeant with the 509th Atomic Bomb Squadron at Roswell Army Air Field in 1947, told family members that he had seen the bodies recovered at Roswell when he was given the task of guarding a number of them after they were placed in the rear of a military truck.

(Also, see earlier cited testimony for this witness, as well as answers for skeptics regarding this witness)

1972

Inez Wilcox tells her granddaughter Barbara Dugger of the involvement of the Chaves County sheriff in the events of 1947. She says her husband, Sheriff Wilcox, was informed that one of the beings survived the crash. Mrs. Wilcox says rnilitary personnel used death threats to keep the family from talking about the events. (from numerous interviews)

1978

Pappy Henderson confides in his close friend John Kromschroeder that he flew wreckage from a crashed saucer out of Roswell and to Dayton, Ohio. He shows Kromschroeder a fragment of the debris and tells his friend that he saw alien bodies.


Oliver "Pappy" Henderson

John’s affidavit:



(1) My name is John Kromschroeder, DDS.

(2) My address is:

(3) I am retired from the field of dentistry.

(4) I met Oliver W. "Pappy" Henderson in 1962 or 1963. I learned that we shared an interest in metallurgy. We participated in several joint business ventures.

(5) In 1977, which was the 30th anniversary of Roswell event, Henderson told me about the Roswell incident. He said he transported wreckage and alien bodies to Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. He described the wreckage as "spacecraft garbage." He said "the passengers suffered their death." He described the beings as small.

(6) Approximately one year later, Henderson produced a piece of metal taken from the craft. I gave it a good thorough looking at and decided that it was an alloy that we are not familiar with. It was a gray lustrous metal resembling aluminum, but lighter in weight and much stiffer.

(7) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Dr. John G. Kromschroeder
Date: 1 May, 1991

Signature witnessed by:
John XXXXXXXXXXX
LCdr US Navy (Ret)


Stanton Friedman (UFO researcher, Nuclear Physicist) is at a television station in Baton Rouge, LA, when the station manager suggests that he contact Jesse Marcel. He found Marcel in Houma, LA, now retired from the service.


Stanton Friedman



"Out of the blue, he says, 'you know, the guy you ought to talk to is Jesse Marcel. He handled the wreckage of one of those saucers you're interested in when he was in the military,' " Friedman told ABC News.


Jesse Marcel is interviewed by a number of researchers, including Leonard H. Stringfield and Stanton Friedman. Marcel tells them that he is sure the wreckage is nothing from earth. Later, Marcel grants interviews to various news organizations, but those reports do not gain wide dissemination.


Leonard Stringfield

December 1979

Reporter Bob Pratt interviews and later publishes his interview with Jesse Marcel in which Marcel "admitted that he was the intelligence officer who had recovered the parts of a flying saucer."

January 1980

Charles Berlitz and William L. Moore publish "The Roswell Incident", the first attempt at a comprehensive analysis of the events at Roswell. In the course of his research, Moore located and interviewed more than seventy witnesses who had some knowledge of the event.

Syndicated television program "In Search Of" airs an episode about UFO coverups and interviews Marcel. In the course of that interview, Marcel again insists the material he saw had no earthly origin.

1980/1981

After reading a story about the events at Roswell in a tabloid newspaper, Pappy Henderson tells his wife, Sappho, that everything in the story was true. He knows from his own personal involvement. He is surprised that the story is being released and, moreover; that it is accurately reported. He says even the descriptions of the bodies are accurate. Sappho’s affidavit:



(1) My name is Sappho Henderson

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXX

(3) I am retired.

(4) My husband was Oliver Wendell Henderson, who was called "Pappy," because he was older than the other pilots in his squadron during World War II and had prematurely gray hair. We met during World War II, when he flew with the 446th Bomb Squadron; he flew B-24s and had 30 missions over Germany, for which he received two Distinguished Flying Crosses and the Air Medal with Four Oak Leaf Clusters.

(5) After the war, he returned home and was sent to Galveston Air Force Base, then transferred to Pueblo AFB, and then sent to Roswell (later Walker AFB), where he stayed for 13 years.

(6) While he was stationed at Roswell, he ran the "Green Hornet Airline," which involved flying C-54s and C-47s, carrying VIPs, scientists and materials from Roswell to the Pacific during the atom bomb tests. He had to have a Top Secret clearance for this responsibility. After separating from the service, he operated a construction business in Roswell. He died on March 25, 1986.

(7) In 1980 or 1981, he picked up a newspaper at a grocery store where we were living in San Diego. One article described the crash of a UFO outside Roswell, with the bodies of aliens discovered beside the craft. He pointed out the article to me and said, "I want you to read this article, because it's a true story. I'm the pilot who flew the wreckage of the UFO to Dayton, Ohio. I guess now that they're putting it in the paper, I can tell you about this. I wanted to tell you for years." Pappy never discussed his work because of his security clearance.

(8) He described the beings as small with large heads for their size. He said the material that their suits were made of was different than anything he had ever seen. He said they looked strange. I believe he mentioned that the bodies had been packed in dry ice to preserve them. He was not aware of the book [The Roswell Incident] that had been published about this event at the time he told me this.


(9) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Sappho Henderson
Date: July 9, 1991

Signature witnessed by: Steve Groode

Subscribed and sworn before me this 9th day of July, 1991
XXXXXXXXXXXXX, Notary Public
In and for the County of Los Angeles State of California


1991

Bill Rickett receives a phone call from his former commander, Sheridan Cavitt (you’ll remember him as the one who went with Marcel to the debris field, and later didn’t provide Marcel with the report).



One can well imagine Bill Rickett's surprise when, after more than 40 years of silence, he received an evening phone call in 1991 from his former commanding officer.

"Happy birthday, Bill," said the voice on the other end of the phone. "Its 'Cav,' your old boss."

After exchanging niceties, Cavitt queried, "Have you been talking to anyone about what happened back in 1947?" Rickett identified one specific investigator, whom Cavitt knew as well.

"What have you been telling him?" pried Cavitt. "We both know what really happened out there, don't we, Bill?"

"We sure do," Rickett responded.

After a short pause Cavitt snapped back, "Well, maybe someday. Goodbye, Bill."

Lewis "Bill" Rickett, who passed away in October 1993, never heard from Cavitt again.

www.scifi.com...

Mid to Late 1990’s

The Air Force attempts to quell public interest in the story by doing what they’ve always done since Blue Book…come out with a very scientific-“looking” report, only to of course realize later how inept it is, and then come out with an even more inept “final word” on the subject.

This is similar to the strategy employed in the 1952 case involving the Washington UFOs and temperature inversions theory, only to come out later and claim how erroneous that was. (that case by the way, remains listed as “unexplained” in Blue Book’s files, despite the lengthy report commissioned to convince us all it was temperature inversions on the radar screens. I suppose the military didn’t like calling so many of their own pilots mistaken, as they visually sighted and tracked these objects, which of course, shoots down the inversion theory)



In the mid to late 1990's, the United States Air Force responded to a General Accounting Office inquiry regarding what has become known as the "Roswell Incident" with two reports explaining the Air Force's version of the events. The "Roswell Incident" refers to witness accounts of debris from an Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) and alien corpses from the alleged UFO crash near the town of Roswell, New Mexico. The second of the reports addresses the likelihood that the "alien corpses" seen in the New Mexico desert were actually anthropomorphic dummies from high-altitude parachute drops conducted with dummies from the Aero Medical Laboratory at Wright Air Development Center.

www.gl.iit.edu...

Both reports can also be read at the above link, if you wish to see the Air Force version of the incident. You can read how they believe that seasoned officers from Sergeants to Generals are fooled by balsa wood, tin foil, and neoprene, and how the aliens people think they saw were really from tests done 5 years after the event, using human sized dummies in military flight suits.

And so, nearly half a century later, we’re still really at the same point regarding what the US military has to say on the incident. They still insist that all of this secrecy, that keeping Brazel in custody, the military cordon, the quick flights, etc. that all of this was to protect the military secrets of balsa wood, tin foil, and neoprene.
Even the skeptics will admit that only the PURPOSE of Mogul was classified, and that it consisted of off the shelf technology. So, if this was Mogul, then why all the fuss? Surely it wasn’t necessary to crate up such debris in such secrecy. Why do so many witnesses all describe the same strange characteristics of the debris? Surely, they wouldn’t have been fascinated with tin foil or balsa wood… No, this was debris that could retain shape, couldn’t be cut, was stronger than steel, yet light as a feather, etc.

We’d also have to believe that numerous military officers, including those in Intelligence, from Sergeants to Generals, could somehow be unable to identify balloon wreckage when they saw it. Now I haven’t had any former military training myself, but I’d bet a paycheck that I could pretty much tell the difference between balloon wreckage, and something as out of the ordinary as what the witnesses described…

Perhaps the biggest mistake, was then the Air Force’s final word on the crash. In their effort to sweep it under the rug, they even went so far as to address the bodies. Obviously, they felt the claim of bodies warranted some kind of explanation. It would have been far wiser to simply ignore this aspect, and yet the majority of the last report on this, is spent trying to convince the public that crash dummies (man sized, and in military uniforms) from tests done FIVE YEARS AFTER the incident, were somehow being confused for 4’ tall aliens. It's actually an insult to the average person's intelligence for even suggesting we believe such an explanation.

It is of course, for the reader to decide. I’ve given you the best facts I’ve seen…the ones that convinced me that this case is the real deal…the ones that convinced me that yes, we’ve been visited by beings not from around here, and that yes, the government knows far more than it’s telling. I hope you’ve found this series of posts enjoyable and informative, regardless on your views on Roswell or aliens in general. Thanks all.



[edit on 21-4-2005 by Gazrok]




posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 08:40 AM
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Looks like a long one. I will have to read it later when I have more time.

Awsome job.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Yep...with the board being down, had time to finish...
Be sure to read them all in order if you haven't yet...



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 11:31 AM
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I have to admit, being a believer for a while now; I hadn't realized the importance of the Roswell event till reading your threads. If ever there was a smoking gun, they don't smoke any more than this.

I had seen the special "Roswell Declassified" where they roll out this truck full of documents and a single triangular box of debris. The first thing that came to my mind was this. If Roswell never happened, then why is there so much stuff to be declassified? There must have been an investigation or a cover-up at some point to compile all this stuff. If so, when did it happen and who conducted it? Although I was disappointed in the special overall, I think this question still remains.

This has been an excellent read Gazrok. You've gone way above and beyond the call on this one.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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Thanks...



If so, when did it happen and who conducted it? Although I was disappointed in the special overall, I think this question still remains.


This question has been answered though. Remember, since late on July 4th, they knew of the problem. The big complication to matters came when they learned that debris wasn't just in the one crash site, but also on a civilian ranch. That's when things got confusing, and Blanchard screwed the pooch and let the story go. Then Ramey and the Pentagon got involved, and began the clampdown. Since it was already in the press that weather balloons had sometimes been mistaken for UFOs, that quickly became the scapegoat. The key of course, was getting Brazel to go along with this. After incarceration, debriefing, and then releasing him (obviously with a monetary reward, judging by his finances after this), he had recanted his story and played along with the military coverup.

Ramey of course had balloon material brought to his office and arranged the photo op in the now infamous photos. Oddly enough, even the memo in his hand in the photos (illegible then, but readable now with modern tech) illustrates the coverup plan. Mogul was planned to be the scapegoat all along, due to it's size and construction no doubt. This is apparent in the memo that was sent to the FBI, and the description of the hexagonal radar reflector.

Since it was fairly well silenced at the time, the military had PLENTY of time to fine-tune the coverup...assuring that all debris had been gathered, all witnesses silenced, and personnel dealt with, one way or another. Indeed, one could hardly fault them for their actions at the time. You or I would have likely done the same in their shoes. But it's high time we were let in on all of this.....



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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But you know they can not, what would happen to the Goverments credibility if they finally admitted, okay we did it, we got one and we covered it up and to boot we knocked off a few people in the name of protecting this secret until we could evaluate whether or not these "aliens" represented a threat to National Security..... do you understand the ramifications from the public if they were to say this.

secretly I think there is a component of the public that knows the goverment is keeping it a secret and are quite comfortable for it to remain the status quo, even if it means they die without knowing the truth. It would be better to them then the uncertainty of the future knowing that "something and someone else is out there" capable of reaching our planet, whom we know nothing about.....

Maybe the Goverment is just keeping it a secret because deep down, really deep down, we (the public) really does not want to "know" or to deal with more unknowns that what we already have....

Something to think about.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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what would happen to the Goverments credibility if they finally admitted...


Government credibility is an oxymoron


Tremendous job Gaz; if I could you'd most definitely have my WATS vote. Hell, I'd probably risk creating a couple of extra accounts just for that--that's better work than I've just about ever seen online on any subject, let alone on UFO topics. But alas, as you are a moderator I cannot do so


You might be right robertfenix; the status quo is probably a lot more powerful than we often give it credit for. But maybe it's changing... As I've said in a few other threads, I'm kinda new on the scene, and that may just be it, but it seems like this stuff slowly but surely taking on a more obvious role in the media. It could just be the "new car" theory--a friend gets a white pickup, so now you see similar trucks all over the place. Even though they were always there, you just never noticed them. Has anyone else noticed this?

Again Gaz, excellent work.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 01:07 PM
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But you know they can not, what would happen to the Goverments credibility if they finally admitted, okay we did it, we got one and we covered it up and to boot we knocked off a few people in the name of protecting this secret until we could evaluate whether or not these "aliens" represented a threat to National Security..... do you understand the ramifications from the public if they were to say this.


I certainly understand the ramifications. Government credibility though, is hardly a given anymore these days. I think them capable of putting the right spin on it, and explaining their actions...without giving us all the facts of course (such as rubbing people out).

As I mentioned, whether one admits it or not, we likely would have done the same in their shoes...if faced with an unknown enemy, with unknown motives, and unknown capabilities. Of course you'd stay quiet till you knew more. Still though, now we've had over 50 years to learn these unknowns, and it's time now, imho, to let everyone in on what may very well be the most important discovery we've ever made. I often think we're being set up for disclosure as it is, with the official announcement of NASA that water is likely and was likely on Mars, etc.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 02:17 PM
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oh I totally agree Gaz, if I was in their shoes I would have done the same, maybe a few things different if possible, like keeping Marcel from making the statement to the press and then having to double back.

But I absolutely agree that this was the only option the Goverment felt they had at the time. It was either that or just tell the public look this is what we found and this is how little we know about it. I am sorry we can not answer your questions as to how many of them there are, or when it came from or even how long it had been near our planet, we also can not tell you whether or not they are hostile as we can not determine from the wreckage whether or not the "ship" had any sort of weapons. Nor do we know if the biological life forms harbor any sort of viral threat to us humans, we just don't know.

The public would be in awe, life (regular day life) would be a difficult proposition for most people, constantly wondering. And since at the time in 47 we had a limited ability to see into space to try and confirm whether or not there was more of them "out there" somewhere. Logic say if there is one, then THERE must be many. But the rational mind knowing the great distances in the universe says if there is ONE here, then so also there must be MANY near.

I assume there was a large debate within the inner circle of what to do. Either swear to keep the facts well hidden until there is some public event that is uncoverable forces the general population to acknowledge the existence of other life besides that on Earth. Or simple tell them that indeed there is other life and we as humans are incapable of doing anything about it nor there "visitations" to this planet...

MY guess as history has shown they opted to keep it a secret.

Will some dramatic event happen that will force us to that point... possibly, but the probability that it will occur on another planet and will involve the remananets of another crashed ship seem more likely. Just like the scenes from the original alien movie. Someday man might find a long forgotten ship from some alien civilization, maybe even the dead remenants of the aliens themselves or just like in the movie maybe something worse.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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I assume there was a large debate within the inner circle of what to do. Either swear to keep the facts well hidden until there is some public event that is uncoverable forces the general population to acknowledge the existence of other life besides that on Earth. Or simple tell them that indeed there is other life and we as humans are incapable of doing anything about it nor there "visitations" to this planet...


Oddly enough, this choice really isn't all that secret. Just search on the "Brookings Report UFO"



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 03:17 PM
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yupe, Gazork I was just playing through history in my head as it were to understand the big picture. I think I am still on the fence about the origins of what it was that crashed in Roswell. I know it was important I know it was covered up and I know it came in from "orbit". But what I dont know is where did it come from.

I think I posted before I am 70% terrestrial and 30% extra terrestrial in regards to the Roswell incident.

There is always room for plausible explanation for something that might seem extrodinary.

Even the other day my wife was getting an xray and I marveled at the fact that I could neither feel, here or see the actual X-ray but yet I know that indeed something happened in that fraction of a second as I could see the resulting x-ray image.

I got to stand right there next to the tech as the xrays were taken and it is a reminder that sometimes things happen that we are either unable to precieve or do not have the faculties to determine on our own.

In 1947 you put a cell phone in front of someone they would probably think you were crazy, and yet the military had protable phones (radios). But you put something like a motorola flip phone and they would have thought you were just playing "make believe".



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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I know it was important I know it was covered up and I know it came in from "orbit". But what I dont know is where did it come from.


Fair enough.

So you'd then have to look at the possibilities.

Either an earthly nation other than the US was capable of launching a rocket into orbit that then crashed in the US, a decade before Sputnik, and then didn't announce this achievement, using materials that had never been used before, or since.

OR

An object of extra-terrestrial origin crashed there.

Next, we have to look at the evidence then, to see which is more likely.
What do YOU believe the evidence shows? Is there really a 70% chance that some nation launched such a craft a decade before Sputnik, and simply chose to keep quiet about it? Is there really a 70% chance that we'd sit on such terrestrial tech for a decade and allow the Soviets to beat us into space? Or is that chance closer to less that 30% ?



[edit on 21-4-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 05:17 PM
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OR this tech came from a civilization that is not human but terrestial non-the-less, but maybe they live A) underground B) in the ocean C) inside our own solar system.

I'm 75% certain it was extra-terrestial and probably from out of our solar system and 25% certain it was terrestial but definitly not human.

Just my 2 cents...

Excellent job Gaz!



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 07:10 PM
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As for sub-orbital flights, on October 3, 1942 an A4 rocket, a prototype for the German V2 rocket bomb, became the first successful launch of an object into space. The first organisms launched into space were fruit flies and corn seeds aboard a U.S.-launched V2 rocket in July, 1946.

encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...

Dividing up the talent

The Americans, the Soviets, the British and the French, had all raced to first understand and then exploit the V-2's technology following the collapse of Germany.

One way the countries did this was by grabbing as many V-2 parts as they could find, before taking them away to be put back together and fired.

Another way was persuading former engineers from Peenemuende - the experimental centre where the V-2s were built - to come on board their nascent rocket programmes.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Sergei Pavlovich Korolev

By 1947 Korolev was ready to test-launch reconstructed V2 rockets at the Kapustin Yar site by the Volga. Meanwhile he worked on an improved version with an extended range of 426 miles/685km and a speed of 3,500mph/5,600kph. First designated the R1, it went into military service as the Red Army Rocket. Korolev was put in charge of all Soviet rocket development.

www.furthermore.org.uk...

Once again further research adds a footnote to previous knowledge: at the end of World War II, the Soviets did indeed take over the underground V2 rocket factory "Dora" at Nordhausen. Having renamed the plant "Zentralwerk" (Central Works) they imported captured German technicians to resume V2 production. The plant was however dismantled in 1946 and transferred -together with the technicians - to the Soviet Union. The Dora factory remained empty until 1948, when it was blown up.

1965 The USSR launched Venus III, an uncrewed
spacecraft that successfully landed on Venus.


So the capability was absolutely there and verified for the Russians to have modified 2 stage V2 in 47 (possibly). And yes I am aware that the first publically acknowledged orbit was in 1956 but to go from Sputnik in 1956 to Venus in 65 a small hop of only 9 years..... seems, well to me anyways that somebody is hiding some advances in technology that they wanted to keep secret.



posted on Apr, 21 2005 @ 10:22 PM
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By 1947 Korolev was ready to test-launch reconstructed V2 rockets at the Kapustin Yar site by the Volga. Meanwhile he worked on an improved version with an extended range of 426 miles/685km and a speed of 3,500mph/5,600kph. First designated the R1, it went into military service as the Red Army Rocket. Korolev was put in charge of all Soviet rocket development.


Now, look on a map. Find NM. Measure out, oh hell, let's be REAL generous, and DOUBLE the range...to 852 miles.
Now, find me a spot in that range where Russia could have secretly launched a rocket into space...



posted on Apr, 23 2005 @ 08:39 AM
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While doing some blowups of the Roswell Daily Record, from my copy, isn't this interesting?

How the hell did I miss this??? General Twining clearly stating ON THE RECORD, that the Army had NO AERIAL DEVICE OF ANY KIND being tested then!!!
Also on the front page...




posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 03:01 PM
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First, AWESOME WORK GAZ! I mean it. What a concise/well organized overview of the data and testimony of this historical event.
While I scoffed at the U.S.A.F's re-hash back in the 1990's (I was partners on a website called Area51 [wherein my partner and I were rabid skeptics and "lured the UFO folks into debates] for Pete's sake!
) that singular report caused me to completely re-asess my position on ALL things mysterious.

While I am not convinced that we are/have been visited by aliens, I am no longer certain that we haven't been either. That's a huge shift for me that occurred when the "Final Word" U.S.A.F. report came out.

I am convinced that our military, industry and government yahoos have utterly bungled the coverups and caused even more attention to be brought to bear upon these issues. That being said I wonder if that's not what they wanted all along.

There is some merit to the argument that they created all this hoopla about Roswell to take eyes AWAY from something else. What it could be I have no idea.

The bottom line for me is, after reading your work, I am certain it was NOT a Mogul or anyother type of baloon that crashed on that ranch out in New Mexico.

Does that mean it was some sort of alien craft? I don't know, i tend to think it's a BIG stretch to go from something manmade, and unknown to 99.99% of the population to alien in origin. There are plenty of black projects out there that would confound MOST Top-Secret Cleared military folks if they stumbled upon it. Was the Roswell debris this type of material? I don't know.

I DO know it wasn't balsa wood and foil.

The "evidence" you have compiled here clearly PROVES that whatever it was, it was NOT what they have claimed it to be.

Another interesting point you brought up is that if it was some sort of black project, surely they would have come clean by now. That's a good point but I can think of some situations that they would want under the table forever. BIG failures that injured people and or the environment would certainly qualify for that list.

No matter the reality (alien of Human mess up that noone will admit to) YOU, sir, have done this site and yourself great CREDIT by creating this series.


m...

[edit on 4-25-2005 by Springer]



posted on Apr, 25 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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Thanks a lot!


Means a lot to me to hear from skeptics...no need preaching to the converted, hehe....




Does that mean it was some sort of alien craft? I don't know, i tend to think it's a BIG stretch to go from something manmade, and unknown to 99.99% of the population to alien in origin. There are plenty of black projects out there that would confound MOST Top-Secret Cleared military folks if they stumbled upon it. Was the Roswell debris this type of material? I don't know.


A valid point. For me, things that convinced me of an alien origin was first the debris itself, and how the properties described were (as you mentioned) unknown to 99.99% of the population. Then the reorganization of the entire defense department, seemingly overnight, with a focus on the breakout of air forces, and the funnelling of intelligence. Then there are the top-ranking military men who would speak about it at the Pentagon years later and STILL wonder what the heck they were dealing with. If black ops, it just seems that it would have made it into SOME kind of production craft or tech by now. Maybe it has? But another case for alien origin is the heiroglyphs reported.



Another interesting point you brought up is that if it was some sort of black project, surely they would have come clean by now. That's a good point but I can think of some situations that they would want under the table forever. BIG failures that injured people and or the environment would certainly qualify for that list.


Another valid point. Still the production issue though, and if black ops, it seems that surely someone would have come out by now. Not much to lose when on your deathbed. But instead, we've got several of these elderly folk who simply didn't want to die staying silent, and many gave sworn depositions shortly before passing.

It is still pretty humorous, that their (Air Force's) Final Word and Case Closed reports actually did more harm to their cause than good. Especially Case Closed, when focusing on the bodies...and therein lies the final nail in the coffin for me, for alien origin. Why admit the bodies NEEDED to be explained... Obviously some bodies to hide...



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 05:01 AM
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Bringing up an old thread here...

Don't you all think it is funny that nothing has surfaced in order to give this story the final unravelling? Give it is hard to do that, and most people who was a part of this story when it first happend is certainly in their 80's or even passed now.

From what I have experienced, never has any of the debris from the wreck come to public attention, and in regards of how much debris there must have been scattered in a crash like this (if it was one) surely a lot of it has been picked up by farmers and other people that the military has not got their hands on. Most interesting would probably be the famous foil material with regenetative qualities. Testing such a material in a, for example a mass spectrometer, lab would give shattering results if it was a material unknown in our periodic table - be it a extra terrestial material or not.

However, any scientist delving to deep in this story is in great risk of ridicule due to the sensitive topic at hand. This I think keep many people away from the story alltogether. Not so much threats from various military instances and/or intel agencies. This surely explains how people, according to Gaz works, can come forward with sworn statements and it still merits no attention from the general community.

But again, how come hard copy evidence can stay hidden for so long. People in general are very bad at keeping secrets intact. And this has been a know story for over 50 years. Being a non-US citizen I dont know much about your laws of de-classifying evidence. I think here in Sweden we have 40 years on most classified items and there has to be a governmental issue to prolong such a period. HOWEVER, I have never felt that any de-classifying act has ever been meant to actually work. When the date approches, just "get rid" of the material and everything keeps happy dandy. I am sure every beurocrat that reads what I just said with revulsion but if someone really want something secret - laws will probably be the least influencing fact in protecting it.

Is the military still enforcing threats against people for keeping this shut and closed? Or are they just relying on the time passed and the incredible angle to keep it concealed from genpop for the rest of time.

Makes you wonder if the items are still sored somewhere or if they have been destroyed to keep it away from prying eyes. Makes you almost want to put together a expediton to find out where the material is stored and just grab it


Anyway, a much enjoyable post from Gaz. Thanks alot!



posted on Mar, 22 2006 @ 01:56 PM
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this is my first post on ATS so bear with me...

I found this thread because I was reading up on Project Serpo. Anyways, I am a pretty big sceptic but I would like to say that this was an amazing post. I still don't know if I bleive it was an alien ship that crashed but I never realized how big of a deal the Roswell Incident was. Thank you Gazrok for putting together such well organized threat.

Here are a few thoughts that came to mind while I was reading. Maybe you can help clear up a few things...

1) My main "problem" with this event is the material. According to two of the witnesses of the crash the object seemed to be moving fairly slow. One guy (sorry for not using the names) say he estimated it was moving around 500-600 Mph and another widness said they saw it on the horizon for about 20 seconds and according to the map and where they were located this would sugest also that the object was not moving very fast. Now, at this speed with such amazingly strong material, how did the object get so badly damaged? Supposedly no one can cut, burn or break the stuff but witnesses describe a massive field of debris.

2) I wonder why no one took any pictures of these events. Of the debris or of the military blockade. i know the military took all the debris from the witnesses but why didnt any of them take a picture of the stuff. (i am fairly young so i dont know how redily available cameras were in 1947)

3) What are these people trying to burn the debris with? There is alot of material out there made to resist extremly high temperatures. If they were just using matches or even a acetylene torch as mentioned there are materials out there that can resist that kind of heat. I work with cars alot and cutting thin sheet metal with a acetylene torch painfully slow. I am sorry I am not providing examples of materials that resist heat well just because I do not have the time to do the research. If there are any interesting replys to my post I can hopefully do some research this weekend.

4) The last thing I wanted to say was in response to this..


Still the production issue though, and if black ops, it seems that surely someone would have come out by now. Not much to lose when on your deathbed


If they threatened their families then there is still alot to lose even when your on your deathbed.

I appoligize if I come off like I have an attitude. I do that alot but I do not mean to. I am really interesting in this topic and just wanted to mention some things I noticed.





 
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