Songs of Ascent;- Psalm 125

Cards on the table. The Psalms are not really my thing. Even in poetry, I prefer narrative to lyric. So while I’m looking at this group of Psalms, I won’t rely entirely on my own conclusions. I’ll separate out my own observations (in this first post) from what I find in commentaries and add in the later posts..

Psalm 125

V1 “Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which cannot be moved”.
Obviously the Lord himself cannot be moved.
Those who trust in the Lord are held where the Lord is, so they cannot be moved either.
For that matter, the metaphorical Mount Zion cannot be moved either, for the same reason, because it is the corporate body of those who trust in the Lord.

V2 The Lord is “round about his people”, protectively, in the same way as the encircling mountains are round about Jerusalem. (I don’t know the geography, so I’m obliged to take his word for it.)
This will be the case “for evermore”.

V3 “The sceptre of wickedness shall not rest upon the land allotted to the righteous.”
For many ages, a staff of some kind has been a symbol of authority.
Is this a promise that the land will have no foreign rulers? Or that the land will have no wicked rulers of any origin? Neither, I think.
If the sceptre of wickedness did rest, then the effect would be that “the righteous put forth their hands to do wrong”. Not any human person, then, but wickedness itself. Wickedness must not prevail in the culture, allowing the righteous to be corrupted.

In support of this conclusion, the last two verses relate to the good and evil parties in the population.

On the one hand , there is the prayer “Do good to those who are good and to those who are upright in their hearts.”
On the other hand, “The Lord will turn away those who turn aside upon their crooked ways.”

“Peace be in Israel.”
These psalms often appeal for Israel’s peace, which must be secured by God’s protection against enemies.
But not human enemies, in this case.
Here Israel needs to be secured in Peace from the real enemy, namely Sin.

The above are my own independent thoughts on the psalm. Having got that far, I will now open up Weiser’s commentary bought a couple of years ago, discover (probably) a number of insights which haven’t occurred to me, and add them here.

“It is not the faith of an individual but of a whole people that is here at stake, in view of the danger that the men of the Yahweh community might themselves “turn away” from the way of righteousness under the pressure of wicked powers””

He refers to the ancient belief that Mount Zion is deeply rooted in the womb of the earth.

He is open to the idea (“perhaps”) that the sceptre of wickedness is the symbol of foreign overlordship.
The prayer for the faithful in v4 does not come from a lack of confidence in them.

On the other hand, “the man who has abandoned his fellowship with God has forfeited his help and has no longer any share in the religious community.”
“The peace and the existence of a people are ultimately guaranteed only if loyalty to the nation is firmly established in faithfulness and responsibility to God”
[It is worth remembering that Artur Weiser lived and worked through the Nazi period, and that last declaration might be seen as a comment upon it.]

And what about Matthew Henry?

“Three very precious promises made to the people of God”.
The character of the people is defined in two ways; they are righteous, and they trust in the Lord.

1 Their hearts shall be established by faith. They shall be as Mount Zion.

2 Committing themselves to God, they shall be safe under his protection, from all the insults of their enemies.

3 Their troubles shall last no longer than their strength will serve to bear them up under them. “With the temptation, he shall open a way for them to escape.”

The prayer in v4 is for those who are sincere and constant, not for those who are perfect.
The psalmist predicts, rather than prays for, the ruin of hypocrites and deserters.

“Peace upon Israel” may be taken as a prayer, but also as a promise.

a reply to: DISRAELI

In the 3 above posts/OP I realized I read all of this in your post on Ps 124.

Compare. It is just the 3rd post here split the 2nd post on your ps 124 post. Where you add more about M.Henry's comments.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
No, look again. It's only the introductory paragraph in each post that gets repeated from one thread to another. The content following the introduction is taken from the relevant psalm, as you would have seen if you had read beyond the first few words and opened up the other thread to compare them.

In fact every thread in the series has had the same introductory paragraph. I've had this lazy habit for many previous series.

Depending on your true motive for making all these threads (which may not be apparent to you because the heart is treacherous warns Jeremiah 17:9, it is easy to fool oneself into thinking that your motive is something other than your true motive), it may be that Paul wrote about you, even though at the time he was addressing the Jewish clergy. This is because of what's described at Eccl. 1:9:

What has been is what will be,

And what has been done will be done again;

There is nothing new under the sun.

Repeating patterns in human behaviour, thinking and attitude (because it's the same one that was molding people's thinking, behaviour and attitude back then as today, more on that later).

Why We Need Accurate Knowledge (1989)

...
Zeal With Accurate Knowledge

The Jewish clergy of Paul’s day certainly had knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures. But was it accurate knowledge? Did it draw them toward Christ as the promised Messiah? Paul argues that they were so committed to establishing their own righteousness by means of the Law that they would not subject themselves to “Christ [who] is the end of the Law.” Therefore Paul could say of them: “For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge.”​—Romans 10:1-4.

...

Now it may be that not every detail in that paragraph applies to you, but if you only look at Romans 10:2, it is much more likely that it applies to you (depending on your true motive for making these threads; which again depending on what it truly is, you possibly will neither admit to anyone here, or even yourself because the heart is treacherous, making it extra hard to realize for yourself). Of course, because of what it says at 2 Timothy 4:3,4, you will be reluctant to consider if it does apply to you, possibly dismissing even the mere possibility straight out of hand, without giving it any serious consideration (pride being also involved). So I'm not sure why I felt compelled today to point it out to you, but I did, in part because I feel you have a right to know, especially in case you truly have a zeal for God and that's the reason you are making these threads, and nobody here ever lets you know, at least not in any respectful caring manner. Attempting to avoid stepping on your toes or influencing your sensibilities to such an extent, that your mind shuts down even more according to the spirit of the world; which involves pride as a huge influencing factor, as well as having been deceived, manipulated, indoctrinated and conditioned by the ruler of this world and god of this system of things (John 12:31; 2 Cor 4:4) to respond in that manner, also described below, but there's more to it, which you can find if you follow the link to the subject of the spirit of the world.

“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

“So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.” (Ephesians 4:14)

“Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;” “We have much to say about him, and it is difficult to explain, because you have become dull in your hearing. For although by now* [Lit., “in view of the time.”] you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment* [Or “their perceptive powers.”] trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Col 2:8; Hebrews 5:11-14)

“However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, whose conscience is seared as with a branding iron.”(1 Timothy 4:1,2).

For anyone else here (and also a little bit for DISRAELI), note Paul's commentary about those “having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power” at 2 Timothy 3:1-9,13. Here too, Paul talks about those who were “always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”

Knowledge (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)

...
Knowledge (gno'sis) is put in a very favorable light in the Christian Greek Scriptures. However, not all that men may call “knowledge” is to be sought, because philosophies and views exist that are “falsely called ‘knowledge.’” (1Ti 6:20) ...
... Thus Paul wrote about some who were learning (taking in knowledge) “yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge [...] of truth.” (2Ti 3:6, 7)

The word rendered there as “accurate knowledge” comes from the Greek e·piʹgno·sis, which, as explained on the page above, is a strengthened form of gnoʹsis (e·piʹ, meaning “additional”), and it can often be seen from the context to mean “exact, accurate, or full knowledge.”

a reply to: whereislogic
All this because I'm too lazy to write fresh introductory words to a series of threads on the same theme? Is there anything particular about "writing threads on the psalms" that brings out this rather sudden lecture?

That being said, here's Psalm 125 from an honest translation:

Those who trust in Jehovah

Are like Mount Zion, which cannot be shaken

But endures forever.

2 Just as mountains surround Jerusalem,

So Jehovah surrounds his people

From now on and forever.

3 The scepter of wickedness will not remain upon the land allotted to the righteous,

So that the righteous do not turn to doing* what is wrong. [Or “turn their hands to.”]

4 Do good, O Jehovah, to those who are good,

To those who are upright in heart.

5 As for those who turn aside to their crooked ways,

Jehovah will remove them along with the wrongdoers.

May there be peace upon Israel.

Jehovah takes great displeasure in those who are misleading people into thinking that it's alright to quote from Bible translations that have removed His name and replaced it with “the LORD”, or worse and even more deceptive (concerning the doctrine of the Trinity and what title is used for Jesus at some point when Jehovah makes him a Lord and King), “the Lord”, or other terms like “God”. Of whom Jesus said (and Isaiah when he wrote what Jehovah said about it):

“You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said, ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matthew 15:6-9; Mark 7:6-8; Isaiah 29:13)

Jesus also said more about it at Luke 6:46: “Why, then, do you call me ‘Lord! Lord!’ but do not do the things I say?”

And what was that, what else did he say?

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.” (Matthew 7:21) Note that Jehovah is (present tense) in heaven when Jesus said that, which was when Jesus was on earth (one of the thousands of clues in the Bible that the doctrine of the Trinity is false, and that Jehovah and Jesus are 2 distinct individuals; of course Trinitarians have their cop-outs and twisted philosophy ready at hand to argue this away so they can ignore it, suggesting that God is in both places at once, related to the false doctrine of God's omnipresence, which is nowhere taught in the Bible, the exact opposite is taught, but I won't get into that now). And removing and then replacing God's name from Bible translations, and quoting those, is definitely against God's will (see this video and Jeremiah 23:25-28 for example). That's not the way to 'sanctify God's name' as Jesus said in his model prayer which is recited many times by those who do this, without understanding it or living by it (exactly what Jesus told them not to do, using repetitious prayer, repeating it word for word without letting it truly reach their hearts and doing what it actually says, which requires understanding, not endless hollow repetition; it's the very first sentence of that model prayer at Matthew 6:9-13, apparently Jesus found this so important that God's name would be sanctified, that he started his model prayer with it).

“However, become doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning.” (James 1:22)

a reply to: whereislogic
Oh, it's just another Bible translation obsession.
But I've been quoting the same version on this site for the last ten years. Why jump on it now?
Is your heart telling you the real reason for this sudden emotional outbreaak? It's not related to my "trying to publish a book" thread, is it?

a reply to: DISRAELI

I don't think my comment has anything to do with what ChesterJohn said to you. Also remember:

“Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.” (Proverbs 16:18)

The Bible also says that there is “a time to be silent and a time to speak.” (Ecclesiastes 3:7)

When picking the right time to be silent, it gives one the opportunity to listen attentively (“intently”), especially to the word of Jehovah God, as recorded in the Bible. Such as here at Isaiah 55:1-3, 6-11 (note that all the different food and drink types in the first 3 verses is referring to spiritual food, compare with the text under my profilename):

Come, all you thirsty ones, come to the water!

You with no money, come, buy and eat!

Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.

2 Why do you keep paying out money for what is not bread,

And why spend your earnings* [Or “hard-earned money.”] for what brings no satisfaction?

Listen intently to me, and eat what is good,

And you* [Or “your soul.”] will find great delight in what is truly rich.* [Lit., “in fatness.”]

3 Incline your ear and come to me.

Listen, and you* [Or “your soul.”] will keep alive,

And I will readily make with you an everlasting covenant

In harmony with the expressions of loyal love to David, which are faithful.* [Or “trustworthy; reliable.”]

...

6 Search for Jehovah while he may be found.

Call to him while he is near.

7 Let the wicked man leave his way

And the evil man his thoughts;

Let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy on him,

To our God, for he will forgive in a large way.* [Or “will freely forgive.”]

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.

9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So my ways are higher than your ways

And my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For just as the rain and the snow pour down from heaven

And do not return there until they saturate the earth, making it produce and sprout,

Giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,

11 So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.* [Or “will prove to be.”]

It will not return to me without results,

But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,* [Or “my will.”]

And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.

a reply to: whereislogic
Oh well. Thank you for bumping the thread, though you are wandering somewhat off-topic.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: whereislogic
Oh, it's just another Bible translation obsession.
But I've been quoting the same version on this site for the last ten years. Why jump on it now?
Is your heart telling you the real reason for this sudden emotional outbreaak? It's not related to my "trying to publish a book" thread, is it?

“Put away from yourselves every kind of malicious bitterness, anger, wrath, screaming, and abusive speech, as well as everything injurious. But become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, freely forgiving one another just as God also by Christ freely forgave you.” (Eph 31,32)

I think you are quite aware that my comment didn't demonstrate "another Bible translation obsession" nor a "sudden emotional outbreaak", nor that you actually believe that to be the case or that you were expecting me to try to argue that that was not the case perhaps because of me thinking you actually believed that if you said it that way (which I also don't think you would expect that to be the result of your comment when making it), which would indicate that your comment above wasn't intended for me. For those who might be negatively affected by this symbolic darkness as described at Ps 125:5 (making it on-topic), here's something more bright to lighten up your day, from Jehovah's people (Ps 125:2), based on Jehovah's word, the Bible:





For those who are willing to put their “trust in Jehovah” (Ps 125:1) so He can help them become “upright in heart” (Ps 125:4) and turn away from “their crooked ways” (Ps 125:5), or at least avoid being too heavily affected by those incapable of doing so, for now.

DISRAELI, have a nice day, I'll check back in a couple of years if by then you're willing to apply Jesus' teaching concerning what has become known as 'the golden rule' (I'm sure you are familiar with it so I won't have to quote it), or at least give it a try. It's very peaceful to your mind and beneficial to you personally as well as others. Not intended to insult you by reminding you that you are not doing so at the moment, but it is fairly obvious that you aren't, so in the hopes of encouraging you to change your ways and find true peace with yourself, with others and with God. Because, as Jesus taught in his sermon on the mount:

“Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
...
“Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

“Happy are those hungering and thirsting for righteousness, since they will be filled.* [Or “satisfied.”]

“Happy are the merciful, since they will be shown mercy.

“Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.

“Happy are the peacemakers, since they will be called sons of God.
...
“Happy are you when people reproach* [Or “insult.”] you ... and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. ...
...
“You are the light of the world. A city cannot be hid when located on a mountain. People light a lamp and set it, not under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it shines on all those in the house. Likewise, let your light shine before men, so that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens.” (Matthew 5:3-15; note that Jesus didn't say 'give glory to me who is on earth' there; I spoke about these sort of clues before)

a reply to: DISRAELI

yeah I know but the 2nd post in the 24 Pslam started the William Henry then in this thread the third post goes into William Henry again about the same line as the last thread.

Remember repetition bores.

a reply to: DISRAELI

All this because I'm too lazy.

Exactly that has been the MO of all your threads laziness.

a reply to: whereislogicI never expect a JW to quote correctly any scripture their hearts are too trecherous.

While a man's heart may be treacherous at times, the actual verse states this

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Treacherous is merely a form of being desperately wicked, while limit it to just a single meaning of "Desperately Wicked"? It is done to Change God's words and make them say what the JW want it to say.

Now that is Treacherous.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It is not about a translation issue.

It is about God keeping his promise to preserve his words to every generation for ever.

You act as if he never did it and it is up to you and men to correct and preserve Gods words in his place. Obviously you, the JW's, Liberty University (NKJV), Bob Jone University currently (RV and NIV) etc are much more intelligent and more powerful than God when it come to his promise to preserve his words.

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: DISRAELI


Come, all you thirsty ones, come to the water!

You with no money, come, buy and eat!

Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.

2 Why do you keep paying out money for what is not bread,

And why spend your earnings* [Or “hard-earned money.”] for what brings no satisfaction?

Listen intently to me, and eat what is good,

And you* [Or “your soul.”] will find great delight in what is truly rich.* [Lit., “in fatness.”]

3 Incline your ear and come to me.

Listen, and you* [Or “your soul.”] will keep alive,

And I will readily make with you an everlasting covenant

In harmony with the expressions of loyal love to David, which are faithful.* [Or “trustworthy; reliable.”]

...

6 Search for Jehovah while he may be found.

Call to him while he is near.

7 Let the wicked man leave his way

And the evil man his thoughts;

Let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy on him,

To our God, for he will forgive in a large way.* [Or “will freely forgive.”]

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.

9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

So my ways are higher than your ways

And my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For just as the rain and the snow pour down from heaven

And do not return there until they saturate the earth, making it produce and sprout,

Giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,

11 So my word that goes out of my mouth will be.* [Or “will prove to be.”]

It will not return to me without results,

But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight,* [Or “my will.”]

And it will have sure success in what I send it to do.

Here is what it actually says,

Isa 55:1 ¶ Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Everyone here is not all men in the world (keep to the CONTEXT) this is those of Israel that would repent. To make this APPLICABLE TODAY for JW's and Christians (JW's are not Christians) is a very large mistake and error not to say FALSE TEACHING.

It is never off topic to address things you brought up in the OP and replies.

originally posted by: whereislogic
...because the heart is treacherous warns Jeremiah 17:9, ...

Here's Jeremiah 17:9,10 in the NW with footnotes giving alternate renderings (verse 10 relates to something mentioned in the song "Guard your heart" that I shared earlier):

The heart is more treacherous* [Or “deceitful.”] than anything else and is desperate.* [Or possibly, “incurable.”]

Who can know it?

10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,

Examining the innermost thoughts,* [Or “deepest emotions.” Lit., “kidneys.”]

To give to each one according to his ways,

According to the fruitage of his works.

“Keep reminding them of these things, instructing* [Lit., “bearing thorough witness to.”] them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms* [Or “destroys; overturns.”] those listening.” (2 Tim 2:14)

Of course, the Bible (Paul again) also warns about those who “fight about words”, exactly for the purpose of having that effect of harming/overturning “those listening” (so intentionally, not by accident or because of falling into that trap).

“But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.” (2 Cor 11:12-15)

“Keep on teaching these things and giving these exhortations. If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed* [Or “has an unhealthy fascination.”] with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander,* [Or “abusive speeches.”] wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain.” (1 Tim 6:2-5)

I already quoted Eph 4:31,32 before (I missed the chapter number, or typed over it), but 2 verses before that, Paul says:

“Let a rotten word not come out of your mouth, but only what is good for building up as the need may be, to impart what is beneficial to the hearers.” (Eph 4:29)

Jesus said:

“It is not what enters into a man’s mouth that defiles him, but it is what comes out of his mouth that defiles him.”

James said:

“So, too, the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it makes great brags. See how small a fire it takes to set a great forest ablaze! The tongue is also a fire. The tongue represents a world of unrighteousness among our body members, for it defiles all the body and sets the whole course of life* [Lit., “the wheel of the birth (origin).”] on fire, and it is set on fire by Ge·henʹna.* [See Glossary.] For every kind of wild animal and bird and reptile* [Or “creeping thing.”] and sea creature is to be tamed and has been tamed by humans. But no human can tame the tongue. It is unruly and injurious, full of deadly poison. With it we praise Jehovah,* [See App. A5.] the Father, and yet with it we curse men who have come into existence “in the likeness of God.” Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing.

My brothers, it is not right for things to happen this way. A spring does not cause the fresh* [Lit., “sweet.”] water and the bitter water to bubble out of the same opening, does it? My brothers, a fig tree cannot produce olives, or a grapevine figs, can it? Neither can salt water produce fresh water.

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness* [Or possibly, “selfish ambition.”] in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness,* [Or possibly, “selfish ambition.”] there will also be disorder and every vile thing.

But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for* [Or possibly, “by.”] those who are making peace.” (James 3:5-18)

“Finally, brothers, whatever things* [Lit., “as many (things) as.”] are true, whatever things are of serious concern, whatever things are righteous, whatever things are chaste, whatever things are lovable, whatever things are well-spoken-of, whatever things are virtuous, and whatever things are praiseworthy, continue considering these things. The things that you learned as well as accepted and heard and saw in connection with me, practice these, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:8,9)

a reply to: whereislogic

NW or NWT is the New World Translation of which the JW's think their translation preserved gods for for God himself.

Proud fools everyone of them.

Rewrote your first post just like a true JW would once caught in an error. Been through it many times with the JW visiting my home. Needless to say they don't come as often as they used to. The truth is hard to believe.