Absolute waste of money

That what I dont like about the US they think its US vs the world.

Its not the world but maybe like 1/3, still why not keep it for ourselves you know, it presentably reasonable, and I’m not talking about the JSF I’m talking out other systems and programs. Its just the attitudes our generals and politicians they don't want o give yup their most prized possession no mater ho close the ally.

You forgot that the poms and aussies fight along side the US in those wars since when has the US fought alone?

Yeah you fight with us there for we will have the really good tech and you got nothing to worry about. And well probably fight along side you so either way your still ok. And some people don't consider the U.K and the Australians a coalition they still think the U.S. is fighting alone which is not true. And I’m saying if need be to go at it alone well be ready, it dangerous if the U.S. starts deepening on other counties to fight its wars. And its not stabbing in the back its simply looking out for Number 1.

Yeah you fight with us there for we will have the really good tech and you got nothing to worry about. And well probably fight along side you so either way your still ok. And some people don't consider the U.K and the Australians a coalition they still think the U.S. is fighting alone which is not true. And I’m saying if need be to go at it alone well be ready, it dangerous if the U.S. starts deepening on other counties to fight its wars. And its not stabbing in the back its simply looking out for Number 1.

The US have great tech but thats not the reason the poms and brits fight along side there american allies. You make war sound like a game of backyard cricket on a sunday afternoon of course there aussies and brits have something to worry about tech isnt the answer to everything.
Its stabbing in the back no two ways about it if your going to supply allies with equipment it has to be the best other wise you are just selling us down the river.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Its just the attitudes our generals and politicians they don't want o give yup their most prized possession no mater ho close the ally.

- That's fine Westy, no-one is saying they can't hold those views.

But......

.....let's just make sure that they make that crystal clear before inviting orders from us or invite our companies to become involved in cost/risk sharing on new projects or seek our support in future.

Also, could you explain to me how Chinook's became "most prized possessions" and what possible rationale there might be for taking UK orders for them and not delivering them with necessary codes thereby rendering the new aircraft only fit to be broken up for spares?

Yeah you fight with us there for we will have the really good tech and you got nothing to worry about.

- Have you lost your mind? Is that why you think the UK & Aus have worked together with the US since WW2?!

Jayzuss wept.

(Besides which the US 'lead' in high-tech is a very very recent thing
and one you'll find born out only in terms of production, remember when the visiting senior USAF people were shocked to encounter the 'MBB Lampyridea'?
A completely independant and unknown - outside of Europe's aero-industry - Euro supersonic contemporary of your 'Have Blue' project, hmmm?

Wake up Westy; physics, metalurgy and chemistry belong to no-one country, Europe's R&D is as good as anyones.)

And well probably fight along side you so either way your still ok.

- Oh right, so, no consideration whatsoever that maybe the UK & the Aussies came along because they thought it was the right thing to do?
(even when it was at great political cost to their national govs?)

And some people don't consider the U.K and the Australians a coalition they still think the U.S. is fighting alone which is not true.

- American attitudes like yours Westy go a long way to losing support for the current involvement and making sure that next time you are utterly alone and that you will suffer the incresed costs of finding yourselves always alone.

I wonder just how many in your 'defence' industry are really that thrilled at the full implications of all this.
Who in their right mind welcomes the prospect of the shorter production runs, the higher costs, the smaller orders this will necessitate from the US tax-payer and the lower profits to 'feed' the R&D that got things to the current level of advancement, hmmmm?

All your gov's (along with some in the military and some blinkered idiots in the 'defence' industry) own paranoid work, enjoy.

And I’m saying if need be to go at it alone well be ready, it dangerous if the U.S. starts deepening on other counties to fight its wars.

- It's also deeply dangerous when there is a mentality abroad in the US that sees threats at every turn.
The cold war is over, there is no 'national threat' and there is no serious credible replacement for the old USSR.
Get over it.

And its not stabbing in the back its simply looking out for Number 1.

- Except for the part where you do actaully stab your supposed allies in the back, you do actually rip them off, you do actually trash their voluntary involvement and freely given support and you really just couldn't care less about any of that, right?



[edit on 1-4-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

I don't know I kind of like it, plus the British don't need the same advanced tech as the U.S. does their a small country they are not going to fight any big wars by them selves.

of course we wont
India, Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Cyprus, Borneo, Aden, Radfan, Oman, Dhofar, Northern Ireland, the Falklands War, Sierra Leonne

and thats just the last 50 years

Sminkey/Paper,

I understand your frustrations with Westie. I would not get too bent out of shape though, for two reasons. Firstly, the command of the English language (and spelling) displayed by Westie shows a level of education and intellect well below that worthy of your engagement. Secondly, someone with views as entrenched as those is not to be swayed by reasoned argument. Such is the way of discourse that has taken control in the US.

Cheers

BHR

WestPoint23, don't tell me your another freakin' blind patriot like EdSinger...

All the US ever care about is their own selfish interests. They never consider the feelings of others or doing something for the benefit of others or because its morally right and so on, all they think about is what profit can be made or if they can gain an advantage over someone. The U.S. mentality is more like: Find a problem, find the profit, fix the problem, earn the profit... and backstab anyone who gets in your way...

BTW, not every other nation spends record amounts of money each year into its military to find ingenious new ways of killing people, and using war as a method of resolving everything. Please understand, the only reason you Americans have the best technology and military products is because you have a stronger economy, it has nothing to do with your infrastructure, or your brilliant scientific and engineering capabilities, in the end, whoever has the most money, has the most powerful military.

[edit on 1/4/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
Such is the way of discourse that has taken control in the US.

- Sad but true BillHicks (may that genius rest in peace.....one can only dream what he would have made of today's events).

It's even more worrying that even when couched in their own terms those that 'think' like that still don't 'get' the self-harm their paranoid delusions are bringing.

BillHicksRules keep you're stereotypes to yourself no one wants to hear them, and if you come to ATS to post on other peoples spelling mistake's and make second grade comments then your not a genius either.

Now... if the British want good tech then they should make it themselves. Being allies does not mean you have to share everything.
Its like this say two people are best friends, and they can go to each others houses and do everything together. However one has a good looking wife, it does not mean that just because they are best friend he is going to let his best fried sleep with her.

Sure the U.S. should share some systems with the British and vise versa but they don't have to give each other everything.



[edit on 1-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Now... if the British want good tech then they should make it themselves.

We do and almost all our tech we offer to you out of friendship....as one american poster said before " we expect the same back"

Being allies does not mean you have to share everything.

No you dont have to but its out of courtesy to thy neighbor....

Its like this say two people are best friends, and they can go to each others houses and do everything together. However one has a good looking wife, it does mean that just because they are best friend he is going to let his best fried sleep with her.

What are you goin on about?
If your trying to suggest that we are demanding you to give us the tech of say something as important as your aircraft carriers then damm right you can deny us it, but to invent some new tech that would benifit both you and us and not even offer it is ignorant and arogant.

Sure the U.S. should share some systems with the British and vise versa but they don't have to give each other everything.

No they dont have to but it is courtesy to do so to an ally, and one that has never turned its back on the US once in over 80 years.

I think in today's world military capabilities, military strength and status, trumps courtesy.


[edit on 1-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I think in today's world military capabilities, military strength and status, trumps courtesy.


[edit on 1-4-2005 by WestPoint23]

So your admitting the US doesnt respect allies?

Listen forget this respect there is no such thing there is only mutual benefit, if the times are tense like back in the cold war days then the Brits will get their advanced tech, If there is no imminent threat then there is no need to outsource our advanced tech. Need to have basis only.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Listen forget this respect there is no such thing there is only mutual benefit, if the times are tense like back in the cold war days then the Brits will get their advanced tech, If there is no imminent threat then there is no need to outsource our advanced tech. Need to have basis only.

Thats a load of crap if there were imminent threats then why are we fighting the war on terror? If the US wants allies that will fight along side in future wars it might pay to give them the ablity to do so. So much for staying loyal to your allies.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

That what I dont like about the US they think its US vs the world.

You forgot that the poms and aussies fight along side the US in those wars since when has the US fought alone?

Yeah you fight with us there for we will have the really good tech and you got nothing to worry about. And well probably fight along side you so either way your still ok.

Westy as an Australian I find this mildly insulting. In Vietnam we taught the US more than a few lessons about how to fight in the jungle.
We are your allies because we are very much alike and have a long shared history.
Believe me everytime we've bought something from the US we've paid top dollar and many tmies these machines don't work seamlessly straight away. We've already spent $1b trying to fix these crappy Sea Sprite helicopters you sold us.

As Sminkey said, we fight in Iraq because we think it is right ans at great political cost to John Howard.

I don;t mind Bush but when he came to Aus to ' officially ' thank us, he was here for a grand total 18hrs - This is also just a bit insulting IMO.

Westy as an Australian I find this mildly insulting. In Vietnam we taught the US more than a few lessons about how to fight in the jungle.
We are your allies because we are very much alike and have a long shared history.
Believe me everytime we've bought something from the US we've paid top dollar and many tmies these machines don't work seamlessly straight away. We've already spent $1b trying to fix these crappy Sea Sprite helicopters you sold us.

As Sminkey said, we fight in Iraq because we think it is right ans at great political cost to John Howard.

Couldnt have said it better myself.
Dam I dont have any ATS votes left for this month.



[edit on 2-4-2005 by xpert11]

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Nope why should America loyal allies put up with 2nd rate stuff?
Why should the RAAF personal put there lives on the line for a country that sold them out?

Because we in the U.S. have the mentality of we worked hard, we built the system, we pay the money we keep it for ourselves and give you something less capable.
I don't know I kind of like it, plus the British don't need the same advanced tech as the U.S. does their a small country they are not going to fight any big wars by them selves.

How typical and arrogant of you Americans to make such as statement like the above. Just who the hell do you think you are to say we British will never fight a big war by ourselves.

Of course not! Why? Because we peace-loving Brits are not oil-grabbing warmongers who, I would like to remind you, constantly watch YOUR backs every time you make a foray into foreign affairs.

Our soldiers even take casualties in a war we did not want, just so your president can look good before your election!

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Listen forget this respect there is no such thing there is only mutual benefit, if the times are tense like back in the cold war days then the Brits will get their advanced tech, If there is no imminent threat then there is no need to outsource our advanced tech. Need to have basis only.

Not really, if that was so then you wouldnt even THINK about giveing us the JSF nor even THINK about letting our companies work on the JSF or the F-22.
The fact remains westy, both the US and the UK must respect each other atleast officialy to work effectively as a fightig force, otherwise as a fighting force our commanders would never work together and our forces in iraq wouldnt be there and would be back home.

Thats a load of crap if there were imminent threats then why are we fighting the war on terror?

The war on terror is not comparable to the cold war, you don’t need Raptors and Solid State Laser’s to fight the war on terror.

How typical and arrogant of you Americans to make such as statement like the above. Just who the hell do you think you are to say we British will never fight a big war by ourselves.

Have you fought by yourself in any bug war since the 1900’s? WWI we were there WWII we were there sure we came late but ever since it started we were shipping a lot of war supplies to the Brits.

Of course not! Why? Because we peace-loving Brits are not oil-grabbing warmongers who, I would like to remind you, constantly watch YOUR backs every time you make a foray into foreign affairs.

Peace loving Brits? You guys are only recently becoming peace loving, British History for hundreds of years had been nothing but war.

Our soldiers even take casualties in a war we did not want, just so your president can look good before your election!

You think he won the election based on Iraq? That's not why he won.

Not really, if that was so then you wouldnt even THINK about giveing us the JSF nor even THINK about letting our companies work on the JSF or the F-22.

Working on the Raptor and having some are two different things. And the JSF is not out front line air dominance fighter, so we have no problem giving it to our allies.

Its not your air dominence fighter by any means, but it is your ground strike fighter the F-35 IS the next ground attack fighter and is therefore a LARGE part of your attack force.
If you think that just because it wont beat the F22 it is not as important then your wrong...unless you think the F-22 can win you a war?

Its not our prized jewel its not our most advanced tech, and since I don't foresee us fighting our allies in the near future whets the harm with giving you the JSF, if any it helps us out, not to mention you guys are actually paying for the F-35's development. Giving you the F-35 does not pose a military problem nor a problem of pride or status.





Enjoy your F-35's.
West Point, Out