A question of rights...and responsibility...

a reply to: YouSir

There is one problem with that - the lockdowns presupposed that everyone was infected. That's what a quarantine is. It separates the sick and exposed from those who are healthy who are allowed to continue with life.

There was a philosophical article I read (I wish I remembered where to get the link). It said that there is a generally a positive and negative view of liberties. In the negative view, those in charge think the people generally cannot be trusted with liberty in the sense they cannot be trusted to take in information and make wise choices for themselves and, thus, society as a whole. It is out of that view that society wide lockdown restrictions are born.

A positive view of liberty leads leaders to render information and make recommendations and then trust that most people will be able to make generally wise decisions for themselves and for others pending their situations in society and life. The American experiment and COTUS is born out of a positive liberty view.

Whatever you think, you cannot deny that lockdowns are a negative liberty view treating us all as if we're generally too dumb to do what is right by ourselves and others. And those who argue that the only reason someone could possibly have an issue with them is because we want to rush right out and breath out plague germs on everyone else ... is also a generally negative view. You have no way of knowing if that was how I wanted to behave or not, but it reflects poorly on you to continue on in your views as if that is the way it would be.

a reply to: YouSir

It’s sad and can be hurtful unless you realize that most are nothing more than parrots, requoting what their chosen media fills them up with.

There is no consistency. When your words (which may vary according to the facts of a situation) don’t match up with the words they are programmed with, bingo, bango, you get the stick.

Watch how they respond to my posts. I do it intentionally sometimes just to confirm my suspicions. When I start quoting their cant back to them, suddenly, I’m not such a bad guy after all.

It’s horrible to see that so many have become robots.

As to the rights AND privileges (first use) we all share ... again, I think you’re talking to a wall. Most, though not all, think they have rights because of who they are ... whether you call it privilege (different use) or not. They couldn’t believe it when their Red States shut down the economy, or when Trump called for a national shutdown. They’re trying to deny that now ... drastically.

Something I’ve realized recently is that it ALL COMES DOWN to personal responsibility.

Governments will fail you.

Ideologies will fail you.

Logic and reason ...

Honor and dignity ...

You are the only one who is always there and has always been there. Rely on yourself.

a reply to: Boadicea


Ummm...I do apologize...I should have been clearer in my response...

I have thought this through...the onus is on you to insure you do me no harm...not on me to police your selfish behavior...

Should we then throw responsibility for our own behavior out the window...?


It seems to me that’s all you advocate here...


And once again you prove my point...


Thank you...






YouSir

a reply to: Gryphon66


Ummm...I noticed that...especially in your last thread...I knew that you started it to gauge reaction...

I also think the responses initially threw you...and you were at a loss how to respond...

I’m very familiar with how manipulative thought transmitted as the written word can be...I manipulate emotion with my writing as a matter of course...which is why I like writing poetry...

I’ve learned to look beyond your words...into the why...into your thought process...and I find that you often try to open the reader into a different perspective...attempt to shake them out of their prejudicial mind ruts...

Logic is sometimes a harsh teacher...yet I do find comfort in it’s purity...an equal mix of creativity and logic...gives exercise to both the right and left hemispheres...


I appreciate your words...

Thank you...







YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

No.

We're of the belief that in general, most people can and should be trusted to make the wise decisions when given the proper information to base those decisions on.

Yes, not everyone will be smart, but most will.

An astute observer of my posts in general will know that I've hardly gone anywhere since this fiasco started, but I am a general opponent of the lockdowns. So why, if I am not going anywhere, do I oppose them? You'd think since I am already socially distancing myself and working from home, etc., that I wouldn't really care, but it's because I think I ought to have the choice if I want it or need it for whatever reason. I ought to be trusted to handle that option in my life and so should you.

Truthfully, it's the same as my feelings on the 2nd Amendment. I've never made any bones about the fact that I do not own a gun, but I might want to or need to someday. And right now, as a citizen of the US and as human in general, it's my right to defend myself to own that firearm if I want to. I don't cede my rights lightly, and neither should you.

a reply to: ketsuko


Ummm...I authored this thread so that those who on one hand chose to deny the rights of others and exemplify their disdain for their responsibility to do no harm to any other...and then juxtapose that idiosyncratic position with their comments about those protesting...and causing harm...

It’s really not on me that you can’t see your own hypocrisy in this regard...that’s purely your own shortcoming...

IF...it’s your premise that you bear no responsibility for causing harm to another...then how can you also hold the position that those protesting...are...responsible for causing harm...

Be it by brick...or virus...

Your position is untenable...and disingenuous

Besides...I never did accuse anyone of purposely attempting to...”breathe plague germs on anyone”...

All I did was try...and apparently fail...to remind you all that rights carry an equal measure of responsibility...

Civilized societies exist by rule of law...rule of law exists because human beings are unequal to the task of policing their own behavior...which is perfectly illustrated by some of the responses in this thread...

When you attempt to state that the onus of insuring your disdain for my rights is squarely on me...and not your own responsibility...then the plot is already lost...and this constitutional republic based on those ideals...is lost as well...

“We have handed you a republic...

if you can keep it”


It’s obvious to me...we cannot...







YouSir

a reply to: ketsuko


Ummm...again with the assumptions...

Do you actually think I’m enjoying any of this...seriously...?

Do you think I get a thrill out of wearing a mask in public...and all day at work...?

Do you think I love disinfecting my shoes when I get home...before I step in the house...that I enjoy disinfecting my work...and workstation...every day...?

Christ...my hands have never been this antiseptic...

However...I work behind a counter...in a tourist trap of a town...where people from all over the country come to enjoy their little slice of cottage by the water...they come in droves and without any regard for anyone else as they show up from god knows what city...and take no precautions whatsoever...

But I try to practice safe behavior...to do my part to help safeguard...them...and theirs...as well as myself...and mine...


I hope you stay safe...I really do...but I just can’t shake the feeling that one of these days...regardless of all the precautions I take...that I will bring that virus home...and that I’ll be the one responsible...if one of mine were to die...all because I chose to chase the dollar...and because too many people my job requires I be in contact with...are too busy believing they have no responsibility to...”cause no harm”...








YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

So because I believe that my rights are mine, no matter how I choose to exercise them or not, and no one else has the right to tell me otherwise, then I am some sort of hypocrite?

I suppose I ought to call you a hypocrite for not having called for lockdowns every year over the flu as it is about as deadly as COVID-19.

a reply to: ketsuko



Ummm...no...quite the contrary...it’s your belief that you carry no responsibility for your actions...and that those rights of yours somehow supersede those of anyone else...that’s what makes you a hypocrite...

They do not...we’re all created equal...some just believe they’re more equal than others...

And please stop with the false equivalency...you see...I’m not President Trump...he’s the one that shut the country down...so it’s not my call to make...and I’m sure the families of those 103,000 plus...dead Americans...thank you for your sentiment...


There but for the grace of god...right...

Right...






YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

It seems to me that if you actually had a position to present and/or defend, you would have done so. But, alas, you set up what you seem to think is a "gotcha" question, and fail to do what you lamented in your post that others could not. I have clearly defined and explained what is a "right" and what is a "responsibility." You have failed to do either. You have not explained in any way how this "selfishness" harms you. Nor you have you offered any explanation/justification for the harm you would cause others resulting from your demands for protection in the name of rights.

I would also suggest that you are shortsighted, and do not realize the longterm harm that you are also doing yourself. The simple truth is that you will catch CoVid sooner or later, one way or another -- unless something else kills you first. These lockdowns bought some time, and some wisdom borne of experience. The stay-at-home orders were never meant to stop the spread, only to slow the spread. We've done that. And it's time to let nature take its course. Herd immunity is our friend, and the only way to ensure herd immunity is to let people contract and recover from the virus. This will not only weaken the virus, it will reduce viral load and therefore severity of symptoms for those who do become infected.

And your chances will be better than ever because of those who accept the risks, become infected, and recover. They are also valuable guinea pigs in terms of medical knowledge -- how it presents, how it progresses, when and how complications develop, risk factors for adverse outcomes, etc. Healthcare providers have a much better understanding how to properly treat CoVid's symptoms, and how NOT to treat CoVid symptoms. Knowledge that they could not and would not have if not for those who have experienced CoVid. Knowledge that benefits everyone. We have learned that Vitamin D deficiency leads to adverse outcomes in more severe symptoms and complications, giving everyone a chance to boost their Vitamin D levels. Likewise for Vitamin C. This is all good. For YOU!

a reply to: YouSir

You're the one who isn't paying attention.

You cannot take away my right to life, liberty, property, self-defense, etc., the basic enumerated rights from the COTUS because I am a human being. Those are rights I have because I am.

You have the same rights because you are.

No agency of man on earth has the right to remove any of those rights because they are intrinsic to us - they are sacred. The Founders properly understood them as being granted to mankind by a higher power than mankind, and therefore, not mankind's to seek to remove.

It isn't for you or anyone else to tell me that I may or may not move about and do as I must because you are afraid that I might spread a disease to you. Your perceived right to remain healthy cannot be guaranteed by removing my right to liberty. In any case, even if you do oppress my liberty in order to try to secure your safety, you can still fall ill and lose what you're so desperately trying to secure. There are plenty of diseases that don't care on bit whether or not you come into contact with another human being ever again.

In the meantime, you care not on whit about the damage you may be doing to me through your oppression of my liberty in your vain attempt to secure your safety. I had shoulder surgery in November. I need to continue rehabilitating my shoulder in order to regain full use. I cannot do that without exercise classes with an in-person instructor to help me modify exercises as needed. You are attempting to force me to sacrifice my shoulder on the alter of your personal safety by oppressing my ability to seek out the services I need in order to be healthy myself.

I could go on, but I won't.

In short, you are arguing from a place of supreme selfishness as much as you want to believe any of the rest of us is.