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A question of rights...and responsibility...

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posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:16 AM
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Ummm...let’s have a conversation...shall we...?

Or...if you can’t manage that...just keep quiet and...listen...

I’ve witnessed an amazing spectacle here on ATS...so I’m sure that extrapolates to all the greater unwashed...out there in for reals land...

This is a conversation of rights...and the gross double standards most hold...as they bluster their way through any consideration of what those rights actually are and the actual limits that those rights inherently consist of...

Case in point...I’ve been recently verbally abused in multiple threads...by a large clique of individuals claiming that their rights are being stifled...

In every case and post I attempted to explain that along with individual rights is the responsibility of the individual to ensure their rights do not cause harm or adversely affect the health and lives of any other individual or group...

I was roundly shouted down...and in at least one instance told to just go away and STFU...

The kicker here...was that this was all perpetrated...by persons who are normally champions of rights and the constitution...which quite frankly shocked me...
It was only in those who I would have traditionally called...leftists...that I found had any real comprehension and understanding that rights also carry the responsibility to...”do no harm”...


Now comes the great disconnect...

I’m seeing these same very vocal voices...excoriating the protesters/rioters...because...during their free exercise of the right to assemble and air grievance...some are also not practicing the responsibility inherent in that right to...”do no harm”...

Now...when the question was about their imagined right to willfully infect and negatively impact/affect my right...not...to be negatively impacted or infected by COVID-19...possibly causing illness or loss of life...
I was shouted down and told to stay home and lock myself in...
Then came all those really fine descriptive modifiers they attacked with and attached to their rants...


Hence my dilemma...

Are rights really that nebulous and meaningless...are they really that misunderstood and hard to comprehend...?

Or...is it like most considerations of the human condition...are they only conversation pieces...hauled out and aired...only when there is a maximum of benefit to the one opining...and screw the rest...?

Frankly...I think that rights and responsibility are severely misunderstood...and that I have also overestimated the intelligence and comprehension of my fellows here...and by extension in the greater unwashed as well...


Only...you...can prove me wrong in that respect...and strangely enough that’s what this whole conversation hinges around...

Respect...






YouSir




posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:20 AM
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do you think you can structure a sentence without the damned 3 dots?
Please write a readable OP.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:22 AM
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originally posted by: projectvxn
do you think you can structure a sentence without the damned 3 dots?
Please write a readable OP.



Ummm...and...”here’s your sign”...





YouSir



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:22 AM
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a reply to: YouSir

we have lost the ability to think critically and to many people are relying on emotion to make a decision.

Department of education failures coupled with a failure to parent, and the advent of social media minimizing the life lessons that come from real world interactions.

ETA: least that's my WAG, that opinion and a few bucks can get you bad coffee.
edit on 31-5-2020 by Irishhaf because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:26 AM
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originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: YouSir

we have lost the ability to think critically and to many people are relying on emotion to make a decision.

Department of education failures coupled with a failure to parent, and the advent of social media minimizing the life lessons that come from real world interactions.

ETA: least that's my WAG, that opinion and a few bucks can get you bad coffee.



Ummm...I agree with all of your points...

I also think we can...and should do better...

Which the two points I brought up in the OP attempt to illustrate...

Thank you for your response...






YouSir



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:30 AM
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There's a few around here that I like to read, your one. ... over the last couple years as democrat attacks have increased so has this site become scarcely more than a curiosity. There are a plethora of members not good enough for video games that have landed here.







it's just not stimulating any more one op on crop circles a dozen or so back. the rest contrarian confrontation tries.
it's become ... just not worth it.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: Plotus
There's a few around here that I like to read, your one. ... over the last couple years as democrat attacks have increased so has this site become scarcely more than a curiosity. There are a plethora of members not good enough for video games that have landed here.







it's just not stimulating any more one op on crop circles a dozen or so back. the rest contrarian confrontation tries.
it's become ... just not worth it.



Ummm...thank you Plotus...I’ve noticed that you post here less and less...and for what it’s worth...I think that’s a shame...

I do understand why however...

Be well in all you do...





YouSir



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 10:22 AM
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There needs to be an understanding by people that rights and freedoms require RESPONSIBILITY! I truly believe one of our biggest problems with people is the failure to understand what being responsible is about and the integral role responsibility plays in ensuring our freedoms and rights.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 10:53 AM
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a reply to: YouSir

Let's talk about rights, like the rights of my granddaughter. She has the right to a safe and secure home. Her mother- my daughter- has the responsibility of providing that safe and secure home and to be there to give her love, care and security. This is how it should be, but wait...

My daughter decided it was more important to flex her social media SJW muscles and left her child with a babysitter to go to the protests in Dallas last night where she and her fiance were arrested. Her fiance was beaten down but he's out of jail as of less than an hour ago because of his injuries. I don't know my daughter's condition but I imagine it's comparable. They will have to go to court and possibly do jail time, can't be sure because we really don't know what they did and fiance is claiming he was beaten down by 4 cops just for videoing them but I kind of doubt that- they both lie continuously. Wouldn't even believe it if I hadn't seen pics of his injuries.

I'm sick to death of this #! Since when is rioting more important than being a parent? Now we're just waiting to hear what's going on and whether or not I'm going to have to catch a flight to go get my grandchild because with previous law troubles her mama might not be released- it's just wait and see.

Just found all of this out within the past hour.

Anyway, right now those are the only rights and responsibilities I give a rat's behind about!



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 10:57 AM
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originally posted by: projectvxn
do you think you can structure a sentence without the damned 3 dots?
Please write a readable OP.


Disregard this statemen Please...continue to write as you please how you please as much as you please in as colorful and interesting a away as you please.

I am enjoying your contributions.Thanx.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 11:16 AM
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originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: YouSir

we have lost the ability to think critically and to many people are relying on emotion to make a decision.

Department of education failures coupled with a failure to parent, and the advent of social media minimizing the life lessons that come from real world interactions.

ETA: least that's my WAG, that opinion and a few bucks can get you bad coffee.



Whereas I will wholeheartedly agree that the ability to think critically is vanishingly rare in our society (and perhaps has been such for a long time), I would hesitate to place the blame on “Department of education failures”.

Schools are direct reflections of the societies that form and direct them. As such, they are bound to adhere to, and promote the “character”, the values and priorities of those social norms in which they function.

In short, they teach what they are told to teach, and society profits, or suffers as a result.

Ergo, because for at least the last one or two generations, schools have focused not on teaching the skills needed for reason and “cold” logic, but for self-empowerment and emotional relationship.

We have been teaching our kids not how to respond, but that their reactions to their experiences are valid.

Because we have feared that schools might “indoctrinate” our children into “what to think”, we have, by and large, prohibited our schools from teaching our kids How to think.

And as a result, they no longer care to think, they just react to whatever stimulates the at the moment.
edit on 31-5-2020 by Bhadhidar because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 11:17 AM
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a reply to: YouSir


Frankly...I think that rights and responsibility are severely misunderstood...


I agree with this much of your OP. A fundamental understanding of what exactly our rights are (basically, that which is "self evident": whatever we can do for ourselves and by ourselves) and the origin of our rights (endowed by our Creator, aka "Nature's God") would be a great starting point.

As far as others taking action to "protect" you from becoming infected by a virus, people are only obligated not to put you at undue risk (an infected person engaging in activities that they know will spread their infection), or intentional risk (such as a known infected person intentionally spitting or sneezing or coughing on you).

Other people are not putting you at risk just by going about their business and living their lives. It's Mother Nature putting you at risk. The laws of nature and physics which spread infections put you at risk. Your own body's inherent weaknesses and faults put you at risk. If you have failed to properly feed and tend your body, you have put yourself at further risk.

Others are only required to not knowingly put you at risk. You have no right to demand people who are non-symptomatic and not infectious to take any extra precautions for your peace of mind. Especially not when those precautions put others in harm's way for your perceived benefit. You do have every right to take whatever precautions you choose for your own peace of mind.

Likewise, protesters have every right to protest... they have no right to cause anyone property damage or bodily harm. They can carry all the signs they want, march up and down Main Street and backwards and forwards all over town, they can chant and yell and scream, and otherwise air their grievances. They do not have a right to intentionally incite or encourage others to do harm. They do not have a right to put anyone else or anyone else's property in harm's way. They do not have the right to loot and burn and pillage and plunder.

Just as rights are what we can do for ourselves, responsibilities (in this sense) are what we should do for ourselves -- such as taking our own precautions to avoid contracting any illnesses -- instead of expecting others to do it for us.
edit on 31-5-2020 by Boadicea because: formatting



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 11:20 AM
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a reply to: GeauxHomeYoureDrunk

At least they didn't take their daughter with them to get tear gassed and beaten too. They had that much sense.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 11:25 AM
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All right OP:

Here's the deal - The people absolutely have the right to be out in the streets protesting and marching, shouting and waving signs. All of us do.

They do not have the right to extend their protesting into criminal activity which where the breaking windows, looting, and arson stop the protest and turn it into a riot. Once the group you're in becomes a riot, you better back out if you're only there to protest because law enforcement has a responsibility to keep the peace and enforce the law, and they can't be expected to go person by person through the crowd at that point. Tear gas for crowd control isn't going to spare you, neither are rubber bullets sadly.

As far as the lockdown, the government never necessarily had the authority to do what it did in the manner it did.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 11:59 AM
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a reply to: Bhadhidar

*shrugs* chicken or the egg... was it hippie parents, or the enabling in the school systems after Department of Education creation that lead to the current crop of emotion is all that's needed kids.

Most likely its a combination of things but the Department of education has done bloody little to help the situation but its budget has ballooned while our quality of education has plummeted.

DOE might not be the root cause but it certainly hasent helped any.



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 12:25 PM
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So, first off I'm in Canada, and I've been amazed by how both ats and the usa has had a huge wedge driven between two ideologies labelled left and right in recent times. It seems to almost have religious fervour. I used to assume I was left leaning in terms of socialism and rights but now if I was to be lined up and shot, not sure which side they would put me on... dreaded dots... and leaves me with so many questions.

How do we achieve social justice in a corrupt system when we know movements and protests get usurped by other factions?
How do we change society when voting is rigged?
How do we teach children that governments want us divided and at each others throats without making them scared and alienated?
How do we know truth when we have fallen for entertainment as news?
What do we do with all the frustration of living under this insanely oppressive system?

Violence comes up because it is inherent in nature. I've spent the last ten years farming and it has been a bittersweet eye opener for me in terms of violence. As a former city anarchist, though I didn't believe in government as it exists (nor destroyed any property) I held hope peace could be had under the current system if we all just pulled together. Farming showed me reality... I lost many animals to predators until I learned to anticipate and kill/run them off them first. Animals I care for, and have high hopes for, can get sick and die. Mothers sometimes kill babies. I kill to eat but I cry over lost favourites. The strongest are kept to breed so the strongest survive. Nature is violent and we can never extract ourselves from it.

So I'd love to see responsibilities walking romantically off into the sunset with freedoms but our government has spent decades backing people, of all colours, into cages and they are just starting to see it. They will lash out and there will be damage. Some of it will be stupid, unnecessary damage but at the root of it our souls are crying out to be free of this painful system... left, right and center.

I hate seeing all this damage but people have lost hope especially with the virus on top of it all. Something was bound to trigger it.

Sorry... kind of a rant... lost the plot on the op but it is heartfelt. ...



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 12:56 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea


Ummm...thank you for proving my point...and thank you as well for playing...

Your rights do not give you the right to cause harm to anyone...just because you feel overly selfish about the rights part...but choose to ignore the responsibility part...

I appreciate the input...but the onus is on...YOU...to insure through your actions you don’t cause anyone else harm...

Sorry...but there is a recourse for such intransigence...in the 2nd amendment...


Unfortunately it appears that’s precisely the road we’re headed down...

All of it because peeps on both sides of the divide have chosen an exemplary...lack of respect and refuse to be responsible for their own actions...


Be well






YouSir



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


Ummm...just as I stated in my OP...

No-one has the right to unjustifiably bring harm to any other...or to their property and or business...

That also includes you...if you choose to breathe infection on an unsuspecting public...if you do choose to do this...then you are most certainly causing possibly harm and possible death...

Therefore...your in that same rough boat you’ve placed all those protesters that are also causing harm...

Frankly...I’m just not surprised that you can’t see that...not anymore...


Be well...







YouSir
edit on 31-5-2020 by YouSir because: Spelling...

edit on 31-5-2020 by YouSir because: Auto correct...



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: igloo


Ummm...we are indeed a violent species...

I’ve stated numerous times on this site...that humans are territorial...lactating...mammals...

We are the apex predator species on the planet...and we act according to our natures...


All that aside...we have fashioned our societies around the rule of law...and the belief that we are endowed...or born with certain inalienable rights...

Unfortunately it seems a majority do not understand that along with those rights is also the inherent responsibility to...”do no harm”...

With the only exception being...in the protection of you and yours from any other attempting to do you or yours harm...


Stay safe and be well...







YouSir



posted on May, 31 2020 @ 01:54 PM
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a reply to: YouSir


Ummm...thank you for proving my point...


Which point exactly would that be?


Your rights do not give you the right to cause harm to anyone...


At no time did I say or infer such a thing. I spoke only to what we can do for ourselves and by ourselves. This, of course, includes interacting with other consenting adults. But does not include doing anything to others.

And please define rights. My definition is established historically in the Founding Fathers' Lockean philosophy of Natural Rights, and incorporated into our Organic Law, specifically the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

As far as causing harm to anyone, someone who is asymptomatic and not infectious cannot infect anyone else, so no harm can be caused. Symptomatic/infectious people need to take appropriate precautions not to infect others.


...just because you feel overly selfish about the rights part...


Selfish how? I'm not asking anything of you. I am not expecting anything of you. And since I'm neither symptomatic nor infectious, I pose no threat to anyone... and if I have antibodies, then no one is a threat to me. Nothing selfish there.

On the other hand, you have no right to put people in harm's way to protect you from your own body. Not from anyone else. The person who passes it along does not determine the severity of the case and the threat to your health. The threat comes from within you. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that won't develop any symptoms. Maybe you'll have a mild case. Maybe a little more serious... maybe very serious... maybe fatal. But that all depends on your own body.


...but choose to ignore the responsibility part...


Nope. I very clearly addressed the "responsibility" part. I addressed it in deed when I stated that symptomatic/infectious people cannot knowingly and intentionally spread their cooties. I addressed it in principle when I defined it as what we should do for ourselves. You seem to reject my definition of responsibility, but I certainly didn't ignore it. And I'm not surprised that you reject it, because you are all about what I have to do for you... nothing about what you can and should do for yourself.

But you might want to think your position through just a little bit more. You see, if I'm now "responsible" for your health, then I need to know that YOU are taking the proper care of your body so it doesn't develop severe symptoms or any extra complications. Because, ya know, that would mean that YOU are doing things that will harm ME. I'll need confirmation that you are eating the right foods and in the right amounts of course... and no bad habits like drinking or smoking or drugs -- legal or otherwise... Proper exercise... hygiene... you know. I'm sure we've got lots of technology that could track you one way or another to make sure you're following all the rules



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