Transgender Kids & LBGTQ Parents

a reply to: Boadicea

Ah, now we're cookin'!!! Actual EVIDENCE! (Hey Bo!)

In rough order of your presentation:

Are you sure that Dr. Carmichael's individual concerns can be extended to the general conditions of treatments for gender dysphoria. I agree with Dr. Carmichael's concerns as do many doctors and clinicians ... we do not fully understand the complex relationship between the process of puberty and brain development. I'm glad she voiced her opinion! This is an ongoing debate with evidence both pro and con. For example:

Buying time or arresting development? The dilemma of administering hormone blockers in trans children and adolescents - ScienceDirect

This article argues that the various blocking treatments are fully reversible:

The child normally also receives psychological assistance in determining whether or not to proceed to hormone therapy – specifically, the administration of cross-sex hormones, which is the first step in irreversible gender reassignment. Alternatively, she or he may interrupt therapy and revert to the assigned gender. Once endogenous sex hormone production is resumed, the pubertal development is thought to restart normally.

As well, there have been studies that show that the use of blockers and subsequent transition has a significant positive effect:

In their longitudinal study on the first 70 adolescents to receive puberty blockers, de Vries and colleagues reported an improvement in general functioning after two years, along with a decrease in depression and behavioural and emotional difficulties. Fifty-five of these 70 individuals were assessed later in early adulthood, after cross-sex hormones had been administered and gender reassignment surgery had been performed. Depressive symptoms had decreased, general mental health functioning had improved and no regret about transitioning was found. Many (about 70 per cent) reported that their social transition had been ‘easy’. Cohen-Kettenis and colleagues, in a 22-year follow-up of the first described adolescent treated with GnRH analogues and cross-sex hormones, reported overall improved psychological well-being and no clinical signs of adverse effects on the brain.

So, while Dr. Carmichael's concerns are notable, there are studies which demonstrate that the process does not have long term brain developmental effects.

As to your second source, I don't have a subscription to the London Times, so I can't see much to comment to comment on besides the fact that there is an on-going debate with some few individuals that raise questions like Dr. Carmichael's.

From your third source, the individual's complaints were assessed:

A review of Bell’s concerns by the trust did not “identify any immediate issues in relation to patient safety or failings in the overall approach … in responding to the needs of young people.”

As to some of the other claims made in the article: yes, political lobbyists and activists can have an effect on policy, and social media can have effects on what people think. Absolutely no doubt.

As to your fourth article ... it originates from a group that can hardly be said to be unbiased in the matter, eh? Something of an anti-transitioning activist group?

Politics isn't very scientific as a general rule.

I think your points are well-researched. I appreciate the scientifically-based articles. I think more than anything else your post highlights the fact that these kids are not being duped or forced into seeking treatment and are being given time to find out who they really are.

Good show, Bo.

a reply to: sapien82

Yeah not sure about genetics and transgenderism, don’t see a link at all

As far as I am concerned it’s more about disrupting society and the normal
About creating more jobs in the social sciences field, more about making big pharma more money, about destroying family values and creating devision among the population

Can’t have all these esoteric university courses and no jobs for those who have earned their degree to fulfil

a reply to: Gryphon66

as opposed to the evidence I posted in the journal

Results from Steensma et al. showed that majority of children developed homosexual orientation after completion of the GnRH treatment [11]. As for potential consequences, Hembree recently reported no long-term consequences in follow-up studies of GnRH treatment [12].

So they start of and they arent ok with their natal sex, then go through treatment and potentially end up a different sexual orientation than they desired

that is a side effect of the treatments, not exactly preferable to change your sexual orientation is it
is that not just as distressing as being the wrong sex .


AS you mentioned in the other thread , and Boadicea will agree with me on this one
we have society dictating the language that science uses to research this

as before
we had WHO
classify transgenderism as a psychological abnormality, then changed to biological phenomenon
this was due to the social stigma surrounding the condition and the treatment of others.

I completely agree with this as it can cause suffering to others if we do use specific language and calling someone crazy or mentally ill when we arent sure what is going on is potentially damaging
this was a positive shift in the use of language

however as Boadicea pointed out , those who attempt to research this are hounded for using language in a scientific setting.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Hey man , have a look at that link , they have identified 20 gene variants in those who identify as transgender

however they didnt use a control

Understanding the genetic basis of transgender Identity

Conclusion: We identified genetic variants in 20 genes that may play a role in transgender identity. The most promising of these include variants of genes involved in neurologic development and sex hormone pathways. We will continue to enroll transgender patients and their families. We will also perform functional analysis to assess the extent that selected variants affect their respective pathways.

I think we are close to finding out why it happens

originally posted by: M5xaz

originally posted by: Bhadhidar
The thing I can’t figure out is why “gender identity” is a topic that gets so many people all bent out of shape.

I mean, what possible difference could it make to me if, although you look like an adult male, you truly believe yourself to be an adult female (or vice versa)?

Even if that identity is valid only for today.

Who and how you identify yourself matters not one iota to me, except to the extent that I am made aware of how to address you respectfully.

You express concern that certain parents maybe “brainwashing” their kids to behave in “atypical” ways? That’s been an argument since parents have been having kids!

Surprise, kids grow up and become their own individuals. Some hold to what their parents taught and expected of them, some reject everything their parents held dear and true.

Most “bend and blend” what they were raised with to fit what is most comfortable for their lives as adults.

That’s one of the reasons we don’t still live in caves.


Look, one day we may encounter a sentient extraterrestrial species that, although they look like us (two arms, two legs, a head and a body), have a culture and physiology entirely different from ours.

If we can’t “get over” some of fellow humans being non-cis and or “gender fluid”, how can we ever expect to get along with the “non-humanness” if a truly alien species?

There is NO such thing

This is Mental illness, PERIOD.

And no, I really do not care if you identify as man, woman, morse, dragon or furry

GO AHEAD

The issue is that those MENTAL PATIENTS are so insecure that they INVADE everyone else's privacy and get politicians to pass IDIOTIC legislation that threatens to send everyone to JAIL if WE USE THE WRONG PRONOUN in TOTAL denial of biological XY/XX scientific reality.

That is INSANE

Those >0.01% of population mental patients want to FORCE everyone else to play along with their insanity.

If you can't see that, you are just as ill as the rest of those mental patients

Agreed!

This has got way out of hand.

The LGBTQ community should get back inside the closet and lock the door, although that door better be strong steel, so the guys with axes can't chop it down

a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

the thing is though its not a mental illness

there is nothing to suggest their brains are any different than sane people

there are no psychological markers , or physiological markers which would indicate a condition which affects the mind

in fact people with gender dysphoria , those who are born male but feel /think female and vice versa
actually resemble the brains of their desired gender

transgender brains are more like their desired gender at an early age

Also the WHO have classified it as a biological phenomenon for this reason

originally posted by: Gryphon66
You're saying someone doesn't have the right to live as they choose?

Please cease and desist engaging in false deflectionism...

Not one single person I have seen has said any such thing.

What we are against is:

a) being forced, at gunpoint, to humor these sick people and pretend that their sickness is normal, and that their delusion is not a delusion, but reality, and

b) allowing children - children to be used as political pawns in their sick perverted scheme to destroy reality as we know it, regardless of the fact that it destroys those very same children.

That is what we are fighting against.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

the thing is though its not a mental illness

there is nothing to suggest their brains are any different than sane people

there are no psychological markers , or physiological markers which would indicate a condition which affects the mind

in fact people with gender dysphoria , those who are born male but feel /think female and vice versa
actually resemble the brains of their desired gender

transgender brains are more like their desired gender at an early age

Also the WHO have classified it as a biological phenomenon for this reason

Really
So, what’s the suicide rate
Is that an indication of a mental illness

Yeah, don’t worry about an answer, my mind is made up, because I have done my research
God bless them and all but they have a problem, just about every has problems, that’s life



Guess that suicide rate is normal?

This is both sides of the argument, make your own mind up

Yes, society treats transgender differently, it’s a fact that can’t be changed, will never be changed, it’s a tragedy, not arguing that factor

Physical, sexual assaults cause psychological issues, 1 + 1 = 2 as does how transgenders are affected by society
Life sucks, really

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Gryphon66
You're saying someone doesn't have the right to live as they choose?

Please cease and desist engaging in false deflectionism...

Not one single person I have seen has said any such thing.

What we are against is:

a) being forced, at gunpoint, to humor these sick people and pretend that their sickness is normal, and that their delusion is not a delusion, but reality, and

b) allowing children - children to be used as political pawns in their sick perverted scheme to destroy reality as we know it, regardless of the fact that it destroys those very same children.

That is what we are fighting against.

I must have missed the part where the members in this forum appointed you as their spokesperson.

You're posting your own opinions.

Please limit your interaction with me to factual information as much as possible, very much appreciated so as not to waste time.

You haven't been forced at gunpoint to do any of those things. Gender dysphoria is not a delusion, and there are gigabytes of medical studies that have been done that put the lie to your claim.

I'll be glad to provide a few references to get you started:

American Medical Association

American Psychological Association

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Academy of Family Physicians,
American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Public Health Association
and dozens of other professional medical organizations - Lambda Legal

The only ones who are using children for political purposes are those who make ludicrous, exaggerated claims because of their beliefs which are contradicted by doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, public health professionals, etc.

You keep fighting for what you believe in, but don't expect to post nonsense and have it go unanswered.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Gee, do you think that suicide rates have something to do with negative reactions from family, freinds and members of the general public, like say, many responses in this thread?

Actually though, elevated suicide rate is an excellent reason to provide as much care, treatment and therapy to people with gender dysphoria as early as possible. As far as the "can't be changed, won't be changed" that's your opinion, and I like to believe that there's always hope for greater equality and understanding as time goes on.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Raggedyman

Gee, do you think that suicide rates have something to do with negative reactions from family, freinds and members of the general public, like say, many responses in this thread?

Actually though, elevated suicide rate is an excellent reason to provide as much care, treatment and therapy to people with gender dysphoria as early as possible.

Yes we need to provide as much ...

Watch the video and understand the issue, the argument
It’s a psychological disorder and people need treatment and therapy, even you identify that
Bloody hell

a reply to: Raggedyman

Thanks. I've watched the video, and I do understand the issues involved directly.

Yes, treatment and therapy are needed, which is what many are railing against here.

Bloody hell? Okay.

A psych disorder is not delusional, reality denying, etc.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Ok, we both agree there is an issue and a problem?
Let’s label it anything, but we both want them amazing, wonderful, beautiful people helped

Does it really matter if I see it as psychological and you don’t?

THIS IS WHY
Scientists are testing
growing human brains in the lab.
www.theguardian.com...

Hopefully the parents will get a brain transplant

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Gryphon66

Ok, we both agree there is an issue and a problem?
Let’s label it anything, but we both want them amazing, wonderful, beautiful people helped

Does it really matter if I see it as psychological and you don’t?

I'm really confused now.

Gender dysphoria is a psychological disorder. The recommended treatment is therapy and when appropriate gender reassignment. I've been discussing the studies, etc. above that address different aspects of treatment.

Yes, I want as many people in the world that can be happy to be happy. I don't want anyone to be unhappy including those that don't care for trans folk or LGBTQI+ or whatever identity category people get stuck on.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Ah, now we're cookin'!!!

Actual EVIDENCE!

(Hey Bo!)

Well, you might be giving it (and me) a little too much credit... I wish there were better data and research available. Unfortunately, not only is there much research left to do, it seems there are methodological flaws and/or other limitations with virtually all research and reviews available -- pro, con and neutral.

Are you sure that Dr. Carmichael's individual concerns can be extended to the general conditions of treatments for gender dysphoria. I agree with Dr. Carmichael's concerns as do many doctors and clinicians ... we do not fully understand the complex relationship between the process of puberty and brain development. I'm glad she voiced her opinion!

I'm really not sure of anything beyond the fact that we are experimenting -- with great risk -- on confused kids for impossible goals. It's one of the reasons that I appreciate and I do pay attention to those trying to raise red flags (and, of course, those who harass, intimidate and bully them). I think these are the people who can identify specific concerns, and also suggest better ways to provide effective and beneficial health care, but with necessary and proper safeguards. They might also be the best people to suggest and recommend specific areas of study and research to improve knowledge and understanding, and therefore recommended medical care.

Beyond the dangers of these drugs, my greatest worry is that the vast majority of these kids are not actually suffering gender dysphoria, but something else -- whether mental, emotional, physical, spiritual or a combination thereof. Gender dysphoria itself may be a symptom of a condition rather than a medical/psychological condition itself.

This is an ongoing debate with evidence both pro and con.

This is true. But here's the thing: No matter how well intentioned, no matter how highly recommended, no matter how "successful" for some, there is absolutely no doubt that there will also be failures. Some kids will be left with serious lifelong damage from adverse effects. And it's not a do-over. No one has the right, the wisdom, or the moral authority to make such permanent decisions for another person. I wouldn't even let my son get a tattoo on my watch! This is unconscionable to me.

This article argues that the various blocking treatments are fully reversible

And I would argue that is impossible to know right now, but evidence indicates they are not always and necessarily reversible. It seems to depend on many factors. The only studies done on reversibility was for girls with precocious puberty, in which case the puberty blockers were temporary and IIRC at lower doses than for gender affirmation treatment, so the results are not transferable to gender affirmation use. Kids who desist and stop taking the blockers have reported varying results, but that's anecdotal only. I do not know of any comprehensive or long-term clinical studies for kids who desist specifically.

One of the problems pointed out with the GIDs puberty blocker "study" was that there were no control groups -- i.e., kids identifying as transgender but not talking puberty blockers, and/or kids who do not identify as transgender and do not take puberty blockers, and/or a placebo group of kids who identify as transgender and take a placebo rather than the puberty blockers. They only studied those kids identifying as transgender and taking puberty blockers. While this does provide valuable information and understanding, it is incomplete due to lack of control groups to compare and contrast with. There no "gold standard" studies available.

As to your second source, I don't have a subscription to the London Times, so I can't see much to comment to comment on besides the fact that there is an on-going debate with some few individuals that raise questions like Dr. Carmichael's.

No worries -- just more of the same.

From your third source, the individual's complaints were assessed:

I will respond to their response as soon as I can find a particular link with a rebuttal...

As to some of the other claims made in the article: yes, political lobbyists and activists can have an effect on policy, and social media can have effects on what people think. Absolutely no doubt.

I think this has been a HUGE problem... but I also think that's slowly but surely changing. I believe there are enough medical and psychological professionals and other experts speaking out now that more attention is being paid to the concerns of rushing gender affirmation and transition. And because too many basic safeguards and protections have been thrown out the window under the guise of trans "rights."

When it comes to the lifelong damage these drugs can do, we have to err on the side of caution.

As to your fourth article ... it originates from a group that can hardly be said to be unbiased in the matter, eh? Something of an anti-transitioning activist group?

I wouldn't say they are biased, but I would say they are opinionated, and that it is an informed (to one extent or another) opinion. It is also very much needed and appreciated given the stranglehold on information, research, and any expression of a dissenting opinion from the Trans Agenda and Trans Activists.

In fact, I'm gearing up to post a new thread with helpful resources popping up to held desisters (kids who identify as trans and then don't identify as transgender) and de-transitioners (adults who transition -- with or without surgery -- and then de-transition). These folks have gotten much grief from their former community, and little in real or practical help for the issues and challenges they face. It is an under-appreciated and under-address community that needs some help and support. So I'm glad folks are stepping up to the plate.

Politics isn't very scientific as a general rule.

And that's an understatement!

a reply to: Bhadhidar

What they're doing doesn't matter it's the cramming down our throat, forcing lies to us and our kids and compelling speech.

I'll call you he, she or faggot if I want and there's nothing you can do about it.

Jaden

a reply to: Boadicea

Of all the opinions that have been flying around in this thread, I believe yours have been the most informative and honest.

You seemingly have done a ton of research on this subject, and I, for one, very much appreciate your contributions here.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: CrazeeWorld777

the thing is though its not a mental illness...
in fact people with gender dysphoria , those who are born male but feel /think female and vice versa
actually resemble the brains of their desired gender...

It seems to me that there must be a biological cause for some transgender people, simply because we already know that sex/gender is far more complex than simply penis and vagina, or XX and XY. There are the true intersex, those with an extra X or Y chromosome (like Klinefelter), or resistant to testosterone (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), and of course the Güevedoces:

The discovery of a small community in the Dominican Republic, where some males are born looking like girls and only grow penises at puberty, has led to the development of a blockbuster drug that has helped millions of people, writes Michael Mosley.

The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces

We also know that the synthetic hormones and other endocrine disrupters polluting our air, soil, water, food -- the therefore our bodies!!! -- have adverse effects on the health and proper function of our sexual and reproductive systems. Heaven only knows how much of this is an induced health condition.

I think there are many other factors at play in how and why kids especially come to identify as transgender, but for some -- probably a very small percentage -- biological factors are at play, which presents as what we call gender dysphoria.

a reply to: Wookiep

Thank you for appreciating it.

We can figure this out if we try. Too many people are hurting -- and being hurt -- to NOT try.