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The American Civil War of 2005 as predicted by John Titor

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posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird


...omg...
Have you been living under a rock for the past 400+ years?
Hold up before I go any further, what do you mean by this? Maybe I'm not reading it right...

(and btw, what does that have to do with Titor's definition of war?)

I quoted Titor buddy, not myself.
That's TITOR'S definition. He's the one who said that not me. Are you calling him a liar?
Does he not know what he's talking about?


no i don't live under a rock, i simply read the entire thread and remember how the 2004/5 issue was played nicely vs Roth Joint , who overlooked the Snelgrove incident late 2004. so, based on that, more than 50% is based on false premises, interesting, ain't it?

let me give you an example you cannot possibly ignore: the Boston Tea Party, do you believe this incident was widely regarded as a precursor to revolution at the time? or that it was the only action taken against the Brits? i think not. significance is arbitrary, you see?

so, if people are shooting one another dead in the streets (less lethal or not), could this be considered a low intensity war by future generations, IF it later escalates to become the Real Deal, (tm)? i think yes.

trying to 'nail' the theory by using a deadline won't work, can't you see that? we have our documented cases, we chose to disagree in terms of their significance, that's it.

so, to you, all of this is BS anyway, to Yarcofin the tazerings don't count as 'war' and he's waiting for 2006 to call it all BS, which is not consistent with JT's claims, as you rightly pointed out! to me and a few others, the whole thing might have 'started' in 2004, read: first widely publicised unprovoked death by 'less lethal' weaponry, so, to me, this talk about 2004 or 5 is completely moot and i'm looking for different ways to disprove the story...


hope that's clearer now.


Originally posted by syrinx high priest
You have voted ThatsJustWeird for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


way to keep the thread on topic ! clear and concise. nice post !!


umm, k, you sure you 2 aren't the same person?

[edit on 7-11-2005 by Long Lance]




posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by Long Lance
no i don't live under a rock, i simply read the entire thread and remember how the 2004/5 issue was played nicely vs Roth Joint , who overlooked the Snelgrove incident late 2004. so, based on that, more than 50% is based on false premises, interesting, ain't it?

Wow. Umm....first start over.
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
The Snelgrove incident?


50% is based on false premises?

50% of what?

I asked have you been living under a rock based on your ridiculous statement that the first non lethal death came in 2004.
I asked you to define a non lethal death, because deaths from non lethal weapons have occured since the begining of time....


let me give you an example you cannot possibly ignore: the Boston Tea Party, do you believe this incident was widely regarded as a precursor to revolution at the time? or that it was the only action taken against the Brits? i think not. significance is arbitrary, you see?

Again, what are you talking about?
Like I'm doing here, you can break up quotes so people can see what you're specifically addressing.


so, if people are shooting one another dead in the streets (less lethal or not), could this be considered a low intensity war by future generations, IF it later escalates to become the Real Deal, (tm)? i think yes.

You have to take this up with Titor. He said specifically groups will be manuvering and engaging in armed conflict. Again, these are his words not mine.
If you know the mind of Titor then....congrats....


trying to 'nail' the theory by using a deadline won't work, can't you see that? we have our documented cases, we chose to disagree in terms of their significance, that's it.

I'm not trying to nail anything. It's you all who are doing that.
But Titor said specifically how things were going to happen and when. Are you now saying we should ignore him and go on what you think is happening?

Anyway, if you can show me the 23 events of equal or greater intensity as Waco that were supposed to have happened by now, then you'd (not necessarilyyou specifically, but those who believe like W2H) have a better argument.


so, to you, all of this is BS anyway, to Yarcofin the tazerings don't count as 'war' and he's waiting for 2006 to call it all BS, which is not consistent with JT's claims, as you rightly pointed out! to me and a few others, the whole thing might have 'started' in 2004, read: first widely publicised unprovoked death by 'less lethal' weaponry, so, to me, this talk about 2004 or 5 is completely moot and i'm looking for different ways to disprove the story...

Addressed...

hope that's clearer now.


umm, k, you sure you 2 aren't the same person?

OMG
2 people who don't believe Titor!
IS THAT POSSIBLE! NO, THEY MUST BE THE SAME PERSON!!

Get real. Anyone with any sense can see this is a fictional story. It's just those who want this to happen who believe it's factual. Wishful thinking.

[edit on 7-11-2005 by ThatsJustWeird]



posted on Nov, 7 2005 @ 11:04 PM
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You are wrong TJW, I do NOT want this to happen!

The thing is ... ITS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!!


You are clearly not ready! What will you say to your family on that day?

What will the people who believed your false science and bought into your bully approach to arguing, say to their families.

You are the center of the destruction of everything you love, because you fail to see.

Not only that... you argue against in desperation trying to hold onto that last drop ofthe materialistic era ends.



posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 05:26 AM
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k, i'm no longer as tired as i was yesterday, hope i will get this across in a more understandable fashion, without forgetting to post the required hyperlinks + comments..



I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
The Snelgrove incident?



there was some dispute about JT's prediction that it all starts 2004, while apparently noone could show a single case of violence late 2004, even though there was one. i posted the story before but that link is now dead, so, next one:

www.cnn.com...

i know you don't count this type of thing as a waco style event, but some do and more than 50% of this thread (lost in my last post due to my stupidity) was written without this little tidbit in mind, which would have changed the nature of this discussion from approx page 30 and on, i'd wager. this thread is now larger than 70+ pages...>50% was written later ->



50% is based on false premises?

50% of what?


---



I asked have you been living under a rock based on your ridiculous statement that the first non lethal death came in 2004.
I asked you to define a non lethal death, because deaths from non lethal weapons have occured since the begining of time....


that's true, but this case is a bit different, because the victim's only crime was being in the wrong spot at the wrong time and there was considerable media coverage. similar incidents may have happened before, but this time the story was told.




your response

let me give you an example you cannot possibly ignore: the Boston Tea Party, do you believe this incident was widely regarded as a precursor to revolution at the time? or that it was the only action taken against the Brits? i think not. significance is arbitrary, you see?

Again, what are you talking about?
Like I'm doing here, you can break up quotes so people can see what you're specifically addressing.


this parapgraph was mainly intended to illustrate a point, that history is written with considerable delay, often emphasizing details which were not considered important in their day.



You have to take this up with Titor. He said specifically groups will be manuvering and engaging in armed conflict. Again, these are his words not mine.
If you know the mind of Titor then....congrats....


riot police is an armed group right
no, seriously there's not much to add there. the Katrina disaster the only case that fits the bill, afaik, but that's much much later, so, this is certainly a weak point of the prediction.

'absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence', is more or less an excuse, i know, but it's still true...






I'm not trying to nail anything. It's you all who are doing that.
But Titor said specifically how things were going to happen and when. Are you now saying we should ignore him and go on what you think is happening?



no, i we can't just make things up, we have to stick to the prediction, but a careful evaluation is in order. i think that trying lots of different angles is not a mistake by itself, unless you take them all seriously, of course.



Anyway, if you can show me the 23 events of equal or greater intensity as Waco that were supposed to have happened by now, then you'd (not necessarilyyou specifically, but those who believe like W2H) have a better argument.


no, because there aren't any. the problem is that you insist on using intensity as an indicator, what if only 1 or 2 people were gassed @ home then burned? would you consider that waco-like albeit on a smaller scale? what about the tools, does it have to be tear gas and fire? if not, does it have to happen at home to count as such an event?

you'll probably know by now what i'm getting at, but i doubt it since Roth Joint did a much better and more elaborate job - and failed.





Get real. Anyone with any sense can see this is a fictional story. It's just those who want this to happen who believe it's factual. Wishful thinking


it's probably a fictional story, that's the most sensible explanation, the things he got right (iraq war, erosion of the bill of rights, holding people indefinitely without charge, etc. all before 9/11) can be attributed to luck, but it's not entirely convincing, to me a least. as for wishful thinking, who in his right mind would want THAT to come true?



posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by Long Lance
there was some dispute about JT's prediction that it all starts 2004, while apparently noone could show a single case of violence late 2004, even though there was one. i posted the story before but that link is now dead, so, next one:

www.cnn.com...

i know you don't count this type of thing as a waco style event, but some do and more than 50% of this thread (lost in my last post due to my stupidity) was written without this little tidbit in mind, which would have changed the nature of this discussion from approx page 30 and on, i'd wager. this thread is now larger than 70+ pages...>50% was written later -

Not really. Sad to say, but stuff like that happens all the time. It has happened before 2004. It continues, and will continue after 2004.
I'd really like to know who thinks that's a waco type event. If anyone thinks that then they have no clue as to what happened in Waco...



that's true, but this case is a bit different, because the victim's only crime was being in the wrong spot at the wrong time and there was considerable media coverage. similar incidents may have happened before, but this time the story was told.

Did anything come of that? No.
You see no one rioting in the streets now because of that. It was an unfortunate event that unfortunately happens from time to time. People understand this.

If you go around and ask people about that incident, I can guarentee you that most won't remember it.




no, because there aren't any. the problem is that you insist on using intensity as an indicator, what if only 1 or 2 people were gassed @ home then burned? would you consider that waco-like albeit on a smaller scale? what about the tools, does it have to be tear gas and fire? if not, does it have to happen at home to count as such an event?

If Titor considered lesser events than Waco as the start of a Civil War then I'm sure he wouldn't have said Waco....



as for wishful thinking, who in his right mind would want THAT to come true?

Roth and Where2Hide come to mind, even though they may argue otherwise. There posts speak for themselves however.

W2H:

You are wrong TJW, I do NOT want this to happen!

The thing is ... ITS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!!


You are clearly not ready! What will you say to your family on that day?

So...is it happening now or going to happen? Your posts contridicts itself.



What will the people who believed your false science and bought into your bully approach to arguing, say to their families.

If you believe Titor was a real time traveller and the Civil War as he described it is happening even though you can produce NO evidence whatsoever to support any of those claims then....well....I don't know what to say....
You're clearly in a different world than the rest of us....


You are the center of the destruction of everything you love, because you fail to see.




Not only that... you argue against in desperation trying to hold onto that last drop ofthe materialistic era ends.




Now do you see what I'm talking about Lance?
It's not necessarily that he believes it's happening, it's he WANTS it to happen for whatever his selfish reasons for wanting millions of Americans to die are...



posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

...

Did anything come of that? No.
You see no one rioting in the streets now because of that. It was an unfortunate event that unfortunately happens from time to time. People understand this.

If you go around and ask people about that incident, I can guarentee you that most won't remember it.

...



that's a given, but will it stay this way if this turns out to have been the first widely reported incident out of thousands which get much worse later? i'm probably grasping at straws here, i know but in a similar vein, historians agreed WWII started 9-1-1939, they might as well have picked september 1931, when Manchuria was invaded (perhaps the Chinese even teach that in school?)

a final game of thoughts, before i finally attempt to restrain my posting until new information can be brought to the table:

which analogy would you use (instead of waco-type event) if you referred to an infringement of individual rights with possibly lethal consequences? i can't think of many which are available in late 2000, ruby ridge?



posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Long Lance...

that is exactly what I think is the case here. A person with a narrow mind will never be able to see the truth in JT because their mind refuses to approach the subject from the point of view of a historian from 2036 or as a teenage boy during the pending crisis.

The Historians would tell our story to future generations, what they will say is that the spirit of war first reared its ugly head during the election and post election unrest in 2004.

Remember that when JT said, "perhaps we would define war differently, MY definition of war is organized groups in armed combat". I want you all to consider WHY did JT say that we (you and I against JT) would define war differently, AND THEN he goes onto define what HE defines war as. YOU Must realize that we you and I can not define War this way. JT defines it this way because he joined the rebellion in 2011 with the fighting diamond backs.

IN 2011 ... that will be the definition of JT's Civil War. I believe that we will actually see this definition of Civil War as early as 2008.

But we will not be able to define Civil War the same way as Titor until that point, not in 2004-2007.

I wonder why TJW, has chosen to use this one line of JT as his evidence against JT. JTW does agree with anything about JT... except this one line. I find that rather amuzing. TJW doesn't even have foresight, how could he possible have hindsight. Haha




posted on Nov, 8 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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long lance youd be suprised how many people would do anything to have any kind of change. anything that can promise a possible better life. take a look at the voting areas for elections and the poor areas, compare them.

TJW- eh not going to address you right this moment

W2H- your to into this story of john titor. prove the science behind it, then we will have a definate support. untill then its all opinion and views. learn the sciences if you have to, its definately possible if you apply yourself to it.



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
I wonder why TJW, has chosen to use this one line of JT as his evidence against JT. JTW does agree with anything about JT... except this one line. I find that rather amuzing. TJW doesn't even have foresight, how could he possible have hindsight. Haha


Are you serious?
This thread is 70+ pages long and you haven't paid attention to a thing have you?
That statement is so blatently wrong, I'm positive you couldn't possibly be serious.

The only time I have mentioned that line in this thread is when people insist that the war as described by John Titor has started already.

It would do you a world of good to actually pay attention W2H....

Long:


which analogy would you use (instead of waco-type event) if you referred to an infringement of individual rights with possibly lethal consequences? i can't think of many which are available in late 2000, ruby ridge?

I can't think of any as of late, but the before and during Civil Rights movement would be an example I would use...



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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TJW, you know what? YOU are doing it again!

You are attacking me, calling my statement wrong ... while not backing up anything you said. Just Insults...thats all you have.

Your dirty politics is getting you nowhere on this thread because we can see your petty tactics, becaue we have an open mind.

So why don't you try to explain your statement? You can't because I would pick it apart and make you look like a fool.



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
TJW, you know what? YOU are doing it again!

You are attacking me, calling my statement wrong ... while not backing up anything you said. Just Insults...thats all you have.

Your dirty politics is getting you nowhere on this thread because we can see your petty tactics, becaue we have an open mind.

So why don't you try to explain your statement? You can't because I would pick it apart and make you look like a fool.

This would be laughable if it wasn't so utterly ridiculous.

Attacking you? Are you serious? I told you to pay attention because you obviously aren't doing that as evidence by that post. That's not an attack, it's advice. Are you that sensative that you think someone asking you to pay attention is an insult?


And it's YOU who presented NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to support your claim.

It's YOU who must explain your statement that 'I'm only using that one line to discredit Titor'. Or that I agree 'with everything esle Titor said except that'.

PLEASE I'm begging you to prove that.
Throughout this thread I have presented evidence to show Titor false. Not just that one line. You want my evidence, then read all the posts I have written in this thread. And I have never said I agree with everything Titor said except that. NOT ONCE have I said that. So please, please, please try and prove me wrong.
Try to make me look like a fool, I'm begging you. Please show us all why your statement is true. Please!

[edit on 9-11-2005 by ThatsJustWeird]



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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idk maybe TJW did prove something interesting, but his attitude sucked when he went about it forcing me to not take him serious. saying statements are rediculous and laughable isnt exactly called for. its one thing to disprove some one but theres a thin line that you can cross into attacking them. most the time your playing on it.



posted on Nov, 9 2005 @ 10:55 PM
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Good Posts WhereToHide

An interesting little tidbit id like to quickly throw in here.

George Bush Jr. has now borrowed more money than all previous presidents combined. I wonder if this is a trend we can back away from or a deep hole that we can barely see the edge of? Could something like this have implications that directly effect the topic of this discussion and our future?

www.cnsnews.com...\Nation\archive\200511/NAT20051104b.html

"The seriousness of this rapid and increasing financial vulnerability of our country can hardly be overstated," said Rep. John Tanner

"The financial mismanagement of our country by the Bush Administration should be of concern to all Americans, regardless of political persuasion," said Tanner in a press release.

"No American political leadership has ever willfully and deliberately mortgaged our country to foreign interests in the manner we have witnessed over the past four years," said Tanner. "If this recklessness is not stopped, I truly believe our economic freedom as American citizens is in great jeopardy."

[edit on 9-11-2005 by Master Wu]



posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by grimreaper797
idk maybe TJW did prove something interesting, but his attitude sucked when he went about it forcing me to not take him serious. saying statements are rediculous and laughable isnt exactly called for. its one thing to disprove some one but theres a thin line that you can cross into attacking them. most the time your playing on it.

I really don't appreciate you making false statements...

I went back to try and see what you're talking about. No big surprise I couldn't find anything. So unless you can quote me, do not make false statements like that.

You're forcing me to not take you seriously.

If you're lying about this, then how do I know you're not lying about the whole Titor thing.



posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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there is truth to what Grimreaper is talking about, I feel that I have been attacked by you several times, which I am not going to waste my time going through 75 pages to find. You attack with insults, but do not prove your point...sometimes not even having a point except to insult.



posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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I too have been attacked by him. We all now know what hes like.

Do what i do and treat him like a child that never learned to get along well with others, and you should be able to handle his childish attacks just fine


I had just mentioned that George Bush Jr. has put our country into more debt than ALL previous presidents COMBINED, and he'd still rather have all the attention focused upon his witless 2 cents, instead of going back to intelligent analysis of the state of our country and where its leading us (the topic remember?) How do you treat petulance anyways? Can't just send an adult off to day care.

I don't know about the rest of you, but to me its plain to see that western stability is indeed collapsing... slowly but surely. How anyone can fail to see that astounds me. Ok, let me correct that - how any ADULT can fail to see that astounds me. Well actually, at least children can learn to see better, to open their eyes, to see old things with new eyes... Some people on this forum are blind and don't even know it. There is no way you can open their eyes for them, so don't waste your energy on them... they should be thankful to even have our attention for the infintesimal time we give it to them.

[edit on 10-11-2005 by Master Wu]



posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I really don't appreciate you making false statements...

I went back to try and see what you're talking about. No big surprise I couldn't find anything. So unless you can quote me, do not make false statements like that.


Let's see here...


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
...omg...
Have you been living under a rock for the past 400+ years?



Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

I'll go over how ignoran- no...stupid that paragraph is if you are indeed saying what I think you're saying.



Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Wow man. I'm not trying to be a grammar nazi or anything but...this is just bad...



Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Unbelievable man....

This is truely amazing. Your level of commitment to some random geek with access to the internet claiming he's a time traveler is truely....well....disturbing. Your utter disregard of facts and your insistence to ignore and not even consider the truth is equally disturbing.

Anyway, I've already said what I have to say. Your lack of comprehension of the most simplest things makes it hard to carry on with a decent debate.
A perfect example is your trying to show Bush holding the country together. That's just funny. Everything your quoted, linked, and highlighted shows the EXACT OPPOSITE! (or was completely irrelevent)

Which makes me think you're doing all this on purpose.
Do you honestly think Bush's record low approval rating is due to him trying to hold the country together?
Do you honestly think Bush trying to do what's best for his politcal party even if it means screwing the American people is trying to hold the country together?
The quote you highlighted shows just that!
"Instead of uniting the country through his choice, the president has chosen to reward one faction of his party at the risk of dividing the country," Leahy said."
You highlighted this and yet you're trying to prove the opposite.

This is why I believe you aren't serious.


Need I say more? TJW, your posts are great and all, and you got a few Way Above's from me, but you do attack people... Not that this belongs in the thread, but I thought I would answer your question...

Furthermore, I do not think we should argue about who attacked who (wow, way to contradict, Chris!), but about John Titor's civil war, and how it's || that close to the end of 2005, even though it was supposed to be in 2004.

Maybe he missed a key twice and meant 2015.


This is completely out of hand. As we have all been heard, having it shoved in our faces, do you think it's time that we accept the face that John Titor was nothing more than just a normal person from THIS time? He made predictions, most of which came true by sheer luck and wide range of possibilities.

By possibilities, let me give you an example:

Let's say that he was talking about a major disaster in 2005. That could be A N Y T H I N G! It could be a shooting of a major political figure, a tsunami, a fire, or even (hey!) a Hurricane destroying New Orleans! To say that he is genuine because of a vague contradiction is just plain gullible. Even though he has not been disproved yet, I think it is safe to assume that his time has run out. There is nothing to wait for anymore.

2004 - over.
2005 - around the corner from being over.

When JT said that no one would realize until 2008 when it will be at our doorstep, it means just that: unless you go outside and are in fear of being killed right there and then, then you realize that you are in a civil war. Is it just me, or are you totally capable of going outside without fear of being killed?

-Chris



posted on Nov, 10 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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this thread has really gone in the crapper.

too bad, its an interesting topic.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 01:56 AM
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yeah, too bad some people cannot discuss a subject without becoming some kind of zealot that tries to enforce his point of views using lame intimidation tactics and insults. jesus christ were speculating of the possible probability that maybe some guy from some future maybe possibly came here with some time machine (maybe). not debating politics or football here.



posted on Nov, 11 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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W2H:

there is truth to what Grimreaper is talking about, I feel that I have been attacked by you several times, which I am not going to waste my time going through 75 pages to find. You attack with insults, but do not prove your point...sometimes not even having a point except to insult.

Ok, tell me what point I haven't proved. And I'll go over it.

The only times I have addressed you in a negative way is when you make ridiculous statements as you did above. I'm still waiting for an explanation of that.

MasterWu:

I had just mentioned that George Bush Jr. has put our country into more debt than ALL previous presidents COMBINED, and he'd still rather have all the attention focused upon his witless 2 cents, instead of going back to intelligent analysis of the state of our country and where its leading us (the topic remember?) How do you treat petulance anyways? Can't just send an adult off to day care.

So calling me a child is not an attack? You complain about attacks (yet no one has shown me where) yet you "attack" youself. You don't see anything wrong with that?

Anyway, the reason why I didn't address your post was because it had nothing to do with Titor and the US being in debt will not cause a Civil War. Simple as that. For most of everyone's lives the US has been in debt, this is nothing new. For all the years the US has been in debt, we have had only one depression (of which no Civil War was a result). We'll eventually climb out of this just as the other times. Especially with the world the way it is, being extremely dependent on each other....


I don't know about the rest of you, but to me its plain to see that western stability is indeed collapsing... slowly but surely. How anyone can fail to see that astounds me. Ok, let me correct that - how any ADULT can fail to see that astounds me. Well actually, at least children can learn to see better, to open their eyes, to see old things with new eyes... Some people on this forum are blind and don't even know it. There is no way you can open their eyes for them, so don't waste your energy on them... they should be thankful to even have our attention for the infintesimal time we give it to them.

Again, you attack me....but don't like being attacked?
There's a word for that you know. Starts with an H, ends with ypocrite.


Anyway, I know alot about world history. It wpuld do you good to brush up on it a little. If you can show me that the West is less stable now that it has been in the last 100 years then, I'm all ears.

Seems to me alot of people in this thread have their eyes open, but they're not looking around. They're so focused on just one thing and trying to prove one thing that they're failing to see what's really going on. They're also ignoring history and think that all that is going on is new. I don't know, maybe the school systems aren't teaching about US and World history any more.


Legend:
Please post things in context. Or everyone, look at the context in which those statements were written, and the posts that followed...

Need I say more?

Yes you do. Those examples were horrible....
Saying something like "You're an (____)ing idiot!!" or "If you don't believe me you're stupid" or something like that. Those are attacks and insults.
Asking someone to clean up their post so we can understand it and continue debate (what use is trying to debate someone when you can't understand them) is not an attack...

Anyway, you're completely right that his time has run out. People will insist on keeping him alive however. These are the people who want something like that to happen...


When JT said that no one would realize until 2008 when it will be at our doorstep, it means just that:

Just to clerify the 2008 statement. People keep using this as an excuse to prolong Titor. But Titor said that 2008 is the date when everyone will realize their world is over. Not that there's a Civil War going on. By 2008 it will have spread to everyone's doorstep, so they had to know it was going on.


You are very right syrinx
Where's Roth? At least he stays on topic most of the time.


yeah, too bad some people cannot discuss a subject without becoming some kind of zealot that tries to enforce his point of views using lame intimidation tactics and insults. jesus christ were speculating of the possible probability that maybe some guy from some future maybe possibly came here with some time machine (maybe). not debating politics or football here.



(shrugs)



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