World Trade Center Aftermath:1,100 victims can't be identified from DNA

WORLD TRADE CENTER AFTERMATH: 1,100 victims of 9/11 attacks can't be identified from DNA

Medical examiner is only able to name about 1,600 people

February 24, 2005

BY SARA KUGLER
ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW YORK -- The city Medical Examiner's Office says it has exhausted all efforts to identify the remains of those killed Sept. 11, 2001, at the World Trade Center, confirming the heartbreaking truth for the many families who wanted something, anything, to bury.

In the 3 1/2 years since the attack, forensic scientists have identified the remains of nearly 1,600 of the dead. But families are now being told that the limits of DNA technology have been reached, leaving more than 1,100 victims unidentified.

For many of the families, any hope that their loved ones' remains might be found had all but slipped away long ago.

They buried caskets with photographs and mementos instead of bodies. On holidays, they visit gravestones that mark nothing but a spot in the earth. For many, the trade center site, instead of a cemetery, is where they feel a connection to their loved ones.

Out of nearly 2,800 victims, fewer than 300 whole bodies were recovered.

Forensic teams worked around the clock after the disaster to identify the dead via DNA from toothbrushes and combs supplied by the victims' families. During the monumental effort, the remains were kept in refrigerated trucks outside the examiner's office.
FULL STORY

In many cases, the fierce fires, the crushing debris and other factors prevented scientists from extracting usable DNA.

So,fierce fires prevented them from doing testson tower victims,yet they were able to do so at the Pentagon at which had a more 'centralized' area of impact and fierce fire.
The Pentagon had much more centralized area of fierce fire that that of the towers,but they identified those at the Pentagon,but not at the towers,which did not have many victims involved in fierce fire.

This isnt making sense to me.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by John bull 1]

Its kinda interesting when you think about how quickly they identified everyone who was in the pentagon (alledegly).

Yeah,kinda finding it hard to believe they identified by way of DNA at the Pentagon with the presence of fierce fires,but cant in the same situation at the towers.
This is getting better day by day.More and more slip ups are going to lead to the truth one day.

SMR did it cross your mind that the WTC tower rubble was about 10000X bigger then what they had to clear out at the Pentagon?

Also the Pentagon would of been done by Army engineers specifically, while the WTC was by contractors.

How do you expect them to manage and sift through all of the rubble of the WTC and then test every single speck of human remains that were found. That sounds kind of excessive and overwhelming.

Im sure the families who lost people in the WTC know that their family members are gone because they are just that, gone. Do they really need DNA proof? Why is it that big of a deal? It isnt. And do you realistically expect to find all of the DNA proof?

If so, then maybe you should of been overseeing the WTC cleanup if your so confidant about it.

The issue here is that they cant,CANT identify victims by way of DNA because of fierce fires
Fierce fires damage DNA,thus they cant indentify victims by it.So with that said,how did they NOT be able to do it for victims at the TOWERS,but WERE able to indentify them by way of DNA at the PENTAGON when it had the same fierce fires from the explosion?
They can do it here,but not there......

That sir is the question at hand

To understand better,or more easily rather....

PENTAGON - All victims indentified by way of DNA even though fierce fires present.
TWIN TOWERS - Not all victims indentified by way of DNA because of fierce fires present.

Get it?

Originally posted by SMR
WORLD TRADE CENTER AFTERMATH: 1,100 victims of 9/11 attacks can't be identified from DNA

Medical examiner is only able to name about 1,600 people

The Pentagon had much more centralized area of fierce fire that that of the towers,but they identified those at the Pentagon,but not at the towers,which did not have many victims involved in fierce fire.

This isnt making sense to me.

Easy answer SMR.

Military and DOD Civilians have DNA on file. Most Gov't Agencies also.
It makes it easer to do a DNA Match.
Having to work from samples of hair from combs and tooth brushes may not be as accurate, the samples may be compromised, etc.

Also, the people at the Pentagon were found in the vicinity of their workstations. They had a list of possibles to work from (number of people missing matched the number of bodies). At the WTC they had a list of maybes.

And to be completely rational. We are talking about 2 of the tallest buildings in the world, 100s of combined floors, multiple companies involving thousands of people, falling from the sky to a big heap of rubble many blocks wide. Its not like a section of the pentagon. We are talking massive area, with massive bodies. Hell our system is good at identifying people, but they are not that good!!! The logical conclusion is that they really just can't identify everything. Its like burning down an entire forest, picking up the ashes in the wind and trying to identify the exact tree it came from.

Carburetor

You guys dont get it
Let me spell it out............

Fierce fire DAMAGES DNA therefore you can get NOTHING!No matter if you have a blood sample from the person BEFORE the event that occured.
High amounts of heat DESTROY DNA.

Now,if fierce fire was at BOTH places,why is it that it can be identified at one place and NOT the other.
Buildings have NOTHING to do with it.
I dont understand why you cant get that.

As the article says:
In many cases, the fierce fires, the crushing debris and other factors prevented scientists from extracting usable DNA.
Lets concentrate on the fire:
In many cases, the fierce fires prevented scientists from extracting usable DNA.
Leave out the CRUSHING DEBRIS and OTHER factors.They were just OTHER reasons,not COMBINED!

Get it now?

No need to get upset SMR

I think most people understand your concern on Fierce Fire.
However, ........BIG DEAL.

What we are saying is that the two locations can't really be comparable in workability for someone to find good DNA. Their was a section blown out of the pentagon which is smaller and easier to investigate. Whearas, the WTCs were huge buildings that completly collapse to a heap of rubble. The pentigon most likely had it nailed down who was in the vicinity compared to who was missing. But, who in the heck knows who might of been walking around in (2) 1300 foot buildings. Then these buildings collapsed floor after floor after floor on top of each other. There must be a ton of things that could have effected the ability of people to identify DNA. .......Now you go out their and join the team and see if you can make a difference in identifying the remaining bodies.

I think this is the point that we are trying to make.

Carburetor

Well, I did use the same article to argue the point earlier, though perhaps rather badly
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The facts are that we know from visual evidence that the fires resulting from 'impacts' were fairly confined to surrounding floor levels and that those near the floor levels concerned will have been trying to get down and away from the areas
Therefore it may be assumed that there will be increasing concentrations of people towards the base of the buildings where escape was possible
It is rather incredible therefore that such a large proportion of people's DNA traceable samples appear to have 'evaporated'

[edit on 25-2-2005 by dh]

[edit on 25-2-2005 by dh]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the WTC rubble continue to cook for days underground? Weren't there space photos that showed this?

How could human bodies or their DNA survive a molten pile of cooking rubble? To me, this fact that WTC cooked for days afterward is important and often glossed over.

another numerology...11...connection...

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the WTC rubble continue to cook for days underground? Weren't there space photos that showed this?

How could human bodies or their DNA survive a molten pile of cooking rubble? To me, this fact that WTC cooked for days afterward is important and often glossed over.

I believe there were molten pools of steel over a month later lying in the basement areas, which doesn't make much sense either
Something far bigger than the military plane, as evidenced on In Plane Site, or the remote drone identified for the North Tower by TheWebFairy caused this amount of degradation

molten pools of steel over a month later lying in the basement areas

Yes, and we know that steel needs very high temps to become (and particularly to REMAIN) molten. Any heat of that order would also be cooking all of the rubble as well and sending hot steam/smoke up through the pile of rubble. Isn't that why they could not dig into the wreckage until days afer?

Also, why was the debris from WTC (the largest mass-murder on American soil) quickly sold to China and shipped away? Couldn't the wreckage have enabled us to do more forensic research?

Those missing WTC victims ended up in some unknown Chinese landfill. Not what I'd call a proper burial, eh?


EDIT: Here's a link about the WTC wreckage. I guess it's more important to make a profit off a crime scene than to peform an investigation.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by Mr Carburetor
No need to get upset SMR

I think most people understand your concern on Fierce Fire.
However, ........BIG DEAL.

What we are saying is that the two locations can't really be comparable in workability for someone to find good DNA. Their was a section blown out of the pentagon which is smaller and easier to investigate. Whearas, the WTCs were huge buildings that completly collapse to a heap of rubble. The pentigon most likely had it nailed down who was in the vicinity compared to who was missing. But, who in the heck knows who might of been walking around in (2) 1300 foot buildings. Then these buildings collapsed floor after floor after floor on top of each other. There must be a ton of things that could have effected the ability of people to identify DNA. .......Now you go out their and join the team and see if you can make a difference in identifying the remaining bodies.

I think this is the point that we are trying to make.

Carburetor

BIG DEAL??
FIRE is the cause of why they CANT indentify through DNA.
I just dont get what is so hard to understand that.
Not talking about rumble and DNA.Not talking about a huge building on a body and DNA.We are talking about the headline here.
If they were to say it out loud,you would hear "We cant identify this person because their body was invovled in high temperature fire that made their DNA unreadable"

They found skin or body parts and TRIED to extract DNA to identify persons,but could not.It had nothing to do with a giant block of concrete landing on them.It was the fact that their body was so badly burned from such high temperatures of FIRE,the DNA was damaged and therefore useless.

It is NOT a question of them NOT being able to find body parts.They found them,but are unable to IDENTIFY because,once again the fierce fires, the crushing debris and other factors prevented scientists from extracting usable DNA

See,you find a body part,it is unknown who it is,they try DNA testing,body part to badly damaged by way of fire,cant be identified from DNA.

I dont know how else to put it.Size of the buildings has nothing to do with DNA!!

What the hell are you rambling about.


What point are you trying to make?



FACTS: 100+ Story is hit with a 747 which causes fairly major damage to the building and ignites a fire that burns for hours on hours eventually leading to its collapse.

YOUR POINT: ALIENS INCINERATED THE REMAINS AND THERE IS NO WAY 10000000DEGREE FAHRENHEIT FIRE AND A 100+ STORY BUILDING COLLAPSE COULD RUIN DNA TESTING.

COMMON SENSE: SMR IS SO HYPED UP ABOUT PROVING 9/11 IS SOME EVIL PLOT THAT HE DECIDED TO STOP MAKING SENSE.






[edit on 25-2-2005 by Ritual]

Originally posted by Ritual
What the hell are you rambling about.


What point are you trying to make?



FACTS: 100+ Story is hit with a 747 which causes fairly major damage to the building and ignites a fire that burns for hours on hours eventually leading to its collapse.

YOUR POINT: ALIENS INCINERATED THE REMAINS AND THERE IS NO WAY 10000000DEGREE FAHRENHEIT FIRE AND A 100+ STORY BUILDING COLLAPSE COULD RUIN DNA TESTING.

COMMON SENSE: SMR IS SO HYPED UP ABOUT PROVING 9/11 IS SOME EVIL PLOT THAT HE DECIDED TO STOP MAKING SENSE.






[edit on 25-2-2005 by Ritual]

Who in the hell said ALIENS had anything to do with it!
NOT making sense?
DNA IS DNA JACK!!
READ AND LEARN!

And learn to comprehend dude.
What point am I trying to make?Learn to read....as above....
FROM HERE they tried to identify victims from DNA but could NOT because of high temperature.This contradicts what they did at the Pentagon.

Are you people blind?
Im not making anything up,it is all writen right in front of you from documents BY YOUR BELOVED GOVERNMENT!!

I am not denying that massive damage was done.I know that.
What I am talking about is how in the blue hell can they identify victims through DNA at the Pentagon which was involved in what they call fierce fires,when those same fierce fires were at the two towers,yet could NOT identify through DNA there?

Simple,two building with fierce fires,one place they CAN do DNA testing,the other,they can NOT.
Do you get it NOW Einsteins? JEEZE,it cant get more simple than that!

Obviously they can not under stand that the "enviornment" of the horror has absolutely nothing to do with the analysis of DNA.

The problem with the DNA is that it's all mixed together, lets say 50 people all smeared into one glob covering a part of the building. Now that may seem an awful way of describing it, but it is the most accurate. Not much more need be said to clarify the problems with DNA testing, even court admits that it isn't 100% perfect. There is no logical reason how we can expect those scientists to seperate one persons DNA pattern from the other 49 that are on the same hunk of rubble, or that pile of body parts all thrown into one container. It's not not possible.

I understand what the topic is about but I am making fun of you.

What is the big deal about them not being able to identify people with the DNA?

I think the Pentagon burned ALOT shorter then the WTC did. Maybe because the WTC towers burned so much that the bones (the only thing I guess would be left in a fire to begin with) was turned into ash or pulverized by the building collapsing.

But really what does them not being able to identify the victims have any relevance to?

You edited your original post to sound less like you were trying to point to some conspiracy. BUt to me when I read your post it sounded something like you were implying the government was covering it up or involved in a conspiracy.

I still dont know why this doesnt belong in Science and technology forum anyways.

Uh,,,,,,,,,sorry,if you had paid attention,and clearly you are not,I did not edit my post.JOHN BULL 1 DID and I did not even notice that til you just said something.
[edit on 25-2-2005 by John bull 1]
I didnt even get a reason why.I can honestly tell you though that I dont know if anything was added or taken away.I will have to PM him to ask what was done.

Anyway.........

I understand what the topic is about but I am making fun of you.

Just what we need around here.Rather than state opinion,ridicule people,,,nice

What is the big deal about them not being able to identify people with the DNA?

Point is,AGAIN,if they can NOT do it at the towers,how can they do it at the Pentagon.They were so quick to say they were able to identify those who were in the 'plane' by way of DNA.From the begining,members like me have said that there was no way they could have since DNA is not accessable due to high tempreture.DNA is far to damaged by the heat.
So they say they did it,and now years later,they come out and say we CANT because of,once again,high temperature, AKA fierce fires

Now does that make any sense to you?
Not only that,but seeing them contradict themselves like that only leads one to speculate that they are hiding something since it has come from their mouth,that they cant do DNA testing because of,once again,fierce fires.

Now remember,all fires were due to high volumes of fuel.Does not matter what it hit.Victims were IN these high temperature fires.
That said,if you have say 2 bodies.One is at one tower,and the other is at the Pentagon,in high temperature fires,one body is identified by DNA,the other can NOT be?How is that?

I am now going to give up on this thread as I dont see many understanding what not only I am saying here,but the articles themselves.Im begining to sound like a broken record now and it is even annoying me

If you dont get it,no biggie I guess.If you do,,,,hooray!!