What comes after Heaven or Hell

a reply to: EasternShadow

Because we both agree man is accountable for their own action, and they are judged based on their accountability, therefore Paul's doctrine Salvation by Faith alone is false.

Paul's ministry was far different than James or any of the other apostles. Paul had no affiliation with the congregation of James nor any connection with the formation of the synagogue of James. His entire ministry was to the barbaric heathen gentiles who had no knowledge of the Christ Jesus or His Father.

As Paul would get the attention of a heathen, he offered no synagogue or literature such as the Tanach or Enochian books such as was in the synagogue of James. Paul offered only faith. By faith alone his ministry was preached and by no other means. By faith alone his message was accepted or rejected and no other man has been so inclined to preach in that manner. That is why the scriptures tell us that the salvation of many were by faith alone. It was not the doctrine of Paul that he preached. He preached the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: EasternShadow
Paul's ministry was far different than James or any of the other apostles. Paul had no affiliation with the congregation of James nor any connection with the formation of the synagogue of James. His entire ministry was to the barbaric heathen gentiles who had no knowledge of the Christ Jesus or His Father.

As Paul would get the attention of a heathen, he offered no synagogue or literature such as the Tanach or Enochian books such as was in the synagogue of James. Paul offered only faith. By faith alone his ministry was preached and by no other means. By faith alone his message was accepted or rejected and no other man has been so inclined to preach in that manner. That is why the scriptures tell us that the salvation of many were by faith alone.

If you believe in God's grace to the barbaric heathen gentiles, then you should also accept that same grace fall to the Buddhist Chinese who are also" the barbaric heathen gentiles," and who you declare as the children of Satan in your earlier post.

originally posted by: Seede
It was not the doctrine of Paul that he preached. He preached the doctrine of Christ Jesus.

But Jesus did not preach to the barbaric heathen gentiles. He preached to Israelites either in the synagogue or in open places. Jesus did not offer god's grace by faith alone. Jesus did not come to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill all laws as opposed to Paul. And Jesus repeatedly told his followers to keep his command, as oppose to have faith alone.


While Paul message was intended to draw new convert, Jesus attention was to the lawless among his lost sheep's who know God and well versed in Moses' Tanach and Enoch. So how is it compatible to preach the same word of God, when the target audience of different backgrounds? God's words cannot be changeable according to people's race and background. But if you are speaking about God's grace, then would it be reasonable to conclude that God's grace fall to all human ( minus the Israelites ) and not confine to Christianity only?

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: EasternShadow
Let me explain to you what all of this means.

There is a difference between creation and pro creation.

Only Adam was formed from that which was created. Eve was procreated from Adam and all of the rest of humanity was pro created from Adam and Eve. The rest of humanity was not and is not created by God but is procreated by people. God knows each and every every person that has and will be pro created but has nothing to do with that act of pro creation. That act of pro creation is performed by the free will of each and every human that is pro created.

If you use the term such as procreation, then yes I agree humanity is byproduct of procreation between male and female parents. However, let me remind you, procreation alone doesn't work without God. The evidence is in both human and animal fertility rate. There are many married couples who are unable to conceive children despite many efforts. And this is something even scientist cannot understand. God give life to everything. Not just Adam and Eve. It's God who decide which couples bore children, and it is God decision whose male's sperm and female's ovum can formed into living babies. God create nature laws of coexistence, yet it is also God who determined the outcome. Otherwise, this planet is in danger of overpopulation sooner than you think.

originally posted by: Seede
If God would have created each individual then it could be said that God creates sin. How so?

Because sin by itself is not the flaw of God creation. Mistake happen all the time, but such mistakes is also the reason why we are the image of God. Only human learn from mistakes. Through sin, we learn to become better on how to overcome obstacles. Sure, we get punishment from God, but like I said, it doesn't meant God would stop loving us and throw us in Gehenna like rubbish.

Ask yourself, if we do not sin, then why are we called human, instead of angels? According to Hebrew's and Islamic teaching, angels do not sin and angels do not have any gender to lust over man's daughter. There are many obedient servant of lights, but why human who is subject to sin by free will?

Animals are wild based solely on instinct. We are still animals based on same principal. Instinct for survival takes priority over good and evil. Angels and Satan do not have instinct for survival. We human do. But we misjudge and misuse our instinct for pleasure and it can be dangerous to all living things. Therefore it become sin. We are the one who create sin. Not God. That is precisely why we are here. To learn to overcome our instinct and become a better image of god. And God is not evil for teaching us in harsh way in this curse land.

I think we all reincarnate until we be become the perfect being. As you get closer to that perfect level you reincarnate at higher and higher levels. There may be a date with God at some point but it will take a long time to get there. How you live your life and interact with others determines to which level you come back to. Bad people get reincarnated as lower species, but most of us come back as humans with some lessons to learn.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Ask yourself, if we do not sin, then why are we called human, instead of angels? According to Hebrew's and Islamic teaching, angels do not sin and angels do not have any gender to lust over man's daughter. There are many obedient servant of lights, but why human who is subject to sin by free will?

There has been no man ever lived without sin except the Christ Jesus according to NT scriptures. There are some Jewish sects that do not believe in angels and there are some that do believe in angels. The difference between angels and terrestrial humans is substance change. Angels are not subjected to death in the same manner as humans are subjected to death because angels are created in celestial the realm while humans are created in the terrestrial realm.

A human spirit is not of terrestrial substance but the image [body] of a human is of terrestrial substance and returns to its source as it expires. The spirit of that human is always conscious and stands in judgment after the body expires. If the spirit is judged as righteous it is resurrected into a new celestial body such as the angels and is then allowed everlasting celestial life.

It depends upon which Jewish sect you listen to in understanding angelic creation. As Jesus died, the very first synagogue of the Nazarene movement was ordained by his elder brother named Jacob [James The Just]. James taught that as a justified human dies that its spirit is resurrected into a new celestial body and becomes as the angels. Meanwhile the Sadducee sect, who had killed Jesus, did not believe in any sort of life after death. When you are dead there is nothing more or so they believed. There were actually four or five main Jewish sects in that time and each one had various beliefs much like Christianity has today. In understanding this in that way will tell you that even today there are about three or four sects of Judaism and each sect differs from the rest in various beliefs. So it is not true to say that Judaism believes this or that without naming the sect.

In the book of One Enoch you can read where angels and humans did cohabitate and produced three other races. It is taught by James that when an angel sins and leaves its first estate its substance does change. There are numerous examples of angels appearing to humans as humans as well as appearing to humans as angels.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: EasternShadow
There has been no man ever lived without sin except the Christ Jesus according to NT scriptures.

That is my main point. No man is free from Sin. You and I both know that. God knows that too. It is for that reason, we need to rethink back what it is meant by justice and how does God actually judge man, without conflicting God's love and forgiveness. That is why I invite you to observe parent-children relationship. What would a loving father do when face with rebellious teenage son?

originally posted by: Seede
There are some Jewish sects that do not believe in angels and there are some that do believe in angels.

Angels are mentioned in Torah. It's hard to find any Jewish sects who reject their own written Torah.

originally posted by: Seede
It depends upon which Jewish sect you listen to in understanding angelic creation.

There were actually four or five main Jewish sects in that time and each one had various beliefs much like Christianity has today. In understanding this in that way will tell you that even today there are about three or four sects of Judaism and each sect differs from the rest in various beliefs. So it is not true to say that Judaism believes this or that without naming the sect.

No modern Jews distinguish themselves as Sadducee or Pharisee today. Even modern Jewish Rabbis acknowledge the existence of angels. This is the word of RABBI JEFFREY GOLDWASSER, spiritual leader of Temple Sinai in Cranston:

We are used to seeing angels in Christian art and hearing about them in Christian spirituality, so we may think they are a Christian idea. Since Judaism holds firmly to a single, incorporeal God, Jews may assume there is no place in Judaism for other heavenly beings.

Well, of course, there are angels in Judaism. Angels are directly mentioned in several important stories in the Hebrew Bible. Jacob dreamed about angels ascending and descending a ladder between heaven and Earth (Genesis 28:12). The prophet Isaiah, had a vision of angels surrounding God and shouting, “Holy! Holy! Holy!” (Kadosh! Kadosh! Kadosh!) back and forth (Isaiah 6:1-5). There are many other examples.

jvhri.org...

Further reading:
Do Jews Believe In Angels?

originally posted by: Seede
Meanwhile the Sadducee sect, who had killed Jesus, did not believe in any sort of life after death. When you are dead there is nothing more or so they believed.

That is true. But the Sadducee sect is already extinct after the destruction on second temple in 70 CE. There maybe some small sects which still adhere to Sadducce doctrine. But they hardly represent Jews' view, like Mormon hardly represent Christian's view today.

a reply to: EasternShadow

According to Hebrew's and Islamic teaching, angels do not sin and angels do not have any gender to lust over man's daughter.

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

and again - Jude1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Does not the prophet Ezekiel lament - Ezekiel 28:15,16
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Were not these men Hebrews who tell us that angels do and have sinned? Were not the Sumerian Hebrews, from the days of Jered, witness to the angels that sinned and begat three races of abominations? Why then should we believe the teachings of the rabbis who deny such things? Are the rabbis greater then the prophets? Should not the prophets be the patterns for the rabbis and not the rabbis being the greater of the teachers of God? How so has the world turned from right to wrong?

In the days of James and the first Jesus Nazarene movement there were no rabbis but only the words of God from the prophets and apostles of the Christ. Then came the destruction of the temple and along with that destruction came the destruction of the sons of Aaron and the true prophets of God. You can quote rabbinic sources but be careful in what they teach and totally confuse you.

originally posted by: Seede
2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Very good. But that is not the only things Peter wrote.

2 Peter 2:11
whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.

Peter wrote it based on Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he disputed with the devil over the body of Moses, did not presume to bring a slanderous judgment against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

originally posted by: Seede
and again - Jude1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Does not the prophet Ezekiel lament - Ezekiel 28:15,16
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

You are using verses, which refer to the time when angels are given a chance to choose. The Serpent and his minions made their choice. Such choice is no longer applicable to the angels.

originally posted by: Seede
Were not these men Hebrews who tell us that angels do and have sinned? Were not the Sumerian Hebrews, from the days of Jered, witness to the angels that sinned and begat three races of abominations?

Were this not the same Sumerian Hebrews who also told you angels are the elect holy one?

Psalm 103:20
Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!

Psalm 89:5
The heavens praise your wonders, Lord,
your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones

If that is not enough than refer to Jesus. Did Jesus Not called angels "the holy angels"? What is holy mean to you?

Luke 9:26
For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed ywhen he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

And and of top of that, Did it not written all over the scriptures,
angels doing God’s work? For example, angels protect believers (Psalm 91:11; Matthew 4:6). Angels carry messages to humankind (Matthew 1:20; Luke 1:26–28; Daniel 9:20–21), and help judge the earth (Matthew 13:39–49). Angels praise God and intercede for believers (Psalm 148:2; Matthew 18:10).

This' what angels are and will be forever.

Just because the ancient ones told you, once upon a time angels become corrupted and tainted their celestial spirits, it does not mean it is always the case. The scriptures tell angels do God's works, guardian of believers, carry God's messages and praise God.

originally posted by: Seede
Why then should we believe the teachings of the rabbis who deny such things?

You are the one who deny Jews believe in angels, remember? The rabbis didn't deny the existence of angels.

Just because the once mighty Sadduce sect exist prior to 70 CE, as written in the scriptures, it does not mean Sadduce sect doctrine represent today Jews. Extinct mean extinct. Like Dinosaur.

originally posted by: Seede
Are the rabbis greater then the prophets?

Nope. But they certainly know the Jews tradition and belief system better than you do, and they have scriptures to back their claims.

originally posted by: Seede
Should not the prophets be the patterns for the rabbis and not the rabbis being the greater of the teachers of God? How so has the world turned from right to wrong?

The prophets dont live for ages. Neither do ancient languages such as, Aramaic and Hebrews or even archaic Greek. When the prophets are no longer exist, and there are things in the scriptures need to be clarified and verified, we turn to the apostles. Isn't that what Christians did when they turn to James or Paul for guidance? It is the same things when we deal with Judaism. We turn to the Rabbis, because they are the one who teach modern Jews nows.

Sure, you can use esoteric means to travel 3000 years ago to search for prophets spirits in heaven, but is it adviseable? Neither it is adviseable for us to study on text alone, without advice from those who poses qualification, such as rabbis or bishops or cardinals or priest.

originally posted by: Seede
In the days of James and the first Jesus Nazarene movement there were no rabbis but only the words of God from the prophets and apostles of the Christ. Then came the destruction of the temple and along with that destruction came the destruction of the sons of Aaron and the true prophets of God.

James is not a prophet either. Neither does Paul.

originally posted by: Seede
You can quote rabbinic sources but be careful in what they teach and totally confuse you.

That is why you need BOTH: the Scripture and the Prophets themselves. Torah and Moses himself. Psalm and David himself.

You need BOTH, the Gospel of James and James himself. The Epistles of Paul and Paul himself, etc...

And that is why you need ALL of the four holy books: Psalm, Torah, The New Testaments and Al-Quran.

Don't forget other ancient texts as well, like Vedas, Sumerian tablets and cuneiform and compare them with archeology findings and read the expert in their respective point of views. Both past and present human studies are also important to get things as accurate as possible. Oh also, check out news with regard to forgeries and scientific errors too. I could go on and on, but I don't thinks they are relatable to our post here.

Study, compare, test them all, and lastly verify the result.

lifespan: the length of time for which a person or animal lives or a thing functions.

eternity: infinite or unending time.

a reply to: EasternShadow

You are using verses, which refer to the time when angels are given a chance to choose. The Serpent and his minions made their choice. Such choice is no longer applicable to the angels.

I now understand more of how you regard theology and thank you for your input. You have just enough understanding to be profoundly confused but I don't say that in anger. I know you mean well and are a person with a good heart. I hope one day you will realize that there is no room for polytheistic theology such as you promote and that your mind can come to the point in accepting the doctrine of the Begotten Son of God. You are very confused and double minded in accepting the gospel of the NT apostles. lol

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: EasternShadow
I now understand more of how you regard theology and thank you for your input.You have just enough understanding to be profoundly confused but I don't say that in anger. I know you mean well and are a person with a good heart.

There is no confusion on my part. As far as I concern, I am consistent with the scriptures about angels do not sin based on the word "holy" and the verses I have posted above. You on the other hand, choose to ignore Jesus own words.

Cherry picking verses isn't going to help your case.

originally posted by: Seede
I hope one day you will realize that there is no room for polytheistic theology such as you promote

Accepting the existence of other gods is not equal to worshiping and idolizing them. On the other hand, denying their existences mean denying the bible itself, for angels are clearly mentioned.

Just because I am open to the possibility that people over the world has misuse the word gods for angels, doesn't mean I encourage divination.

While you openly condemn divination in the form of polytheism, I chose to reserve my judgement, because I choose to follow what Jesus said, not to judge. While you choose to ignore the effect of polytheism in people daily life, I choose to study them vigorously because I think the truth is not behind the closed door of church and temples, but outside in the open field by interacting with people from various belief system.

originally posted by: Seede
and that your mind can come to the point in accepting the doctrine of the Begotten Son of God.

As for now, this the only doctrine acceptable to me:

YHWH is neither begotten, nor being a son.
YHWH is the First and the Last.
YHWH is the only one who give life, and not the one who is receiving life.
YHWH has no god, is not the Son of Man and does not share His glory with anyone.
God true name is YHWH, and He is also the Father of all creations.
Always listen to what prophets says for they are the one who are appointed by God. Not John. Not Paul. Not Peter.

originally posted by: Seede
You are very confused and double minded in accepting the gospel of the NT apostles. lol

I have every right to distrust NT apostles, for everything they have done to Christianity. It was Peter who deny Jesus three times. It was Thomas who doubt Jesus. It was Peter who permit Paul to lead the churches of Gentiles. For over 300 years after Jesus ascension, NT apostles left nothing but chaos and confusion.

It doesn't mean, when they write what Jesus had said, I just dismiss everything. I have no obligation to follows the word of apostles. My obligation is to all the appointed prophets of God.

You on the other hand, take anything for granted word by word, without even considering who actually said those words.

I am consistent with the scriptures about angels do not sin based on the word "holy" and the verses I have posted above. You on the other hand, choose to ignore Jesus own words.

Would you like to bet on Angels being incapable of Sin?

originally posted by: DpatC

I am consistent with the scriptures about angels do not sin based on the word "holy" and the verses I have posted above. You on the other hand, choose to ignore Jesus own words.

Would you like to bet on Angels being incapable of Sin?

What is an 'Angel'?
What is 'sin'?

originally posted by: EasternShadow
YHWH is the First and the Last.
YHWH is the only one who give life, and not the one who is receiving life.

If YHWH is the first and the last wouldn't that mean there isn't anything other?
Why assume that there is something receiving life?

What if there is only the ONE and the ONE is life?

Life is not received.......life IS.

The problem is that you think you are separate from life and you believe that you have a life.

This is life....it is the way that it is.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

I am consistent with the scriptures about angels do not sin based on the word "holy" and the verses I have posted above. You on the other hand, choose to ignore Jesus own words.

originally posted by: DpatC

Would you like to bet on Angels being incapable of Sin?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

What is an 'Angel'?
What is 'sin'?

Who or What Are Angels? | Bible Questions

Angels are beings who have greater power and ability than humans. (2 Peter 2:11) They exist in heaven, or the spirit realm, which is a level of existence higher than the physical universe. (1 Kings 8:27; John 6:38) Thus, they are also referred to as spirits.—1 Kings 22:21; Psalm 18:10.
...
Misconceptions about angels

Misconception: All angels are good.

Fact: The Bible refers to “the wicked spirit forces” and “the angels who sinned.” (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:4) These wicked angels are demons, who joined Satan in rebelling against God.
...

And the demons have now been thrown out of heaven and confined to the earth (Rev 12:9), but they are still spirits and “the angels who sinned.” (2 Peter 2:4)

Sin: Reasoning From the Scriptures

Definition: Literally, a missing of the mark, according to the Hebrew and Greek Bible texts. God himself sets the “mark” that his intelligent creatures are to reach. Missing that mark is sin, which is also unrighteousness, or lawlessness. (Rom. 3:23; 1 John 5:17; 3:4) Sin is anything not in harmony with God’s personality, standards, ways, and will, all of which are holy. It may involve wrong conduct, failure to do what should be done, ungodly speech, unclean thoughts, or desires or motives that are selfish. The Bible differentiates between inherited sin and willful sin, between an act of sin over which a person is repentant and the practice of sin.
...

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: EasternShadow
YHWH is the First and the Last.
YHWH is the only one who give life, and not the one who is receiving life.

If YHWH is the first and the last wouldn't that mean there isn't anything other?
Why assume that there is something receiving life?

What if there is only the ONE and the ONE is life?

Life is not received.......life IS.

The problem is that you think you are separate from life and you believe that you have a life.

This is life....it is the way that it is.

I am well aware that you and I are separated both in flesh and mind.
Otherwise you should have known what inside my mind.

If I don't have a life, I would be a walking corpse hunting you every night. I bet you haven't see any ghost or walking corpse before. Do you want to see them?

a reply to: whereislogic
Demons are demons. We don't called them angels anymore.

Chimpazee is primate too, but we don't called them human. We are both simply different species.

Demons and Angels are both spirit entities without physical body and free will. Gabriel, Michael, Raphael and others could not sin against God. Satan, Baal, Malphas, Amon and others could not repent.Their celestial role have been fixed.The elected one and the fallen one are not to be confused like human and chimpazee analogue.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: DpatC

I am consistent with the scriptures about angels do not sin based on the word "holy" and the verses I have posted above. You on the other hand, choose to ignore Jesus own words.

Would you like to bet on Angels being incapable of Sin?

What is an 'Angel'?
What is 'sin'?

An Angel is a being of Light!

You are right what is sin?

Is rebellion against something you don't believe in a sin?

Angels didn't rebel against our creator - They rebelled against their own Kind Angels - I will leave that for now

Hallejuah

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: EasternShadow
a reply to: whereislogic
Demons are demons. We don't called them angels anymore.

I know you don't care much about what the bible says about the subject but it is the bible where we get these concepts of angels and demons from (primarily or initially).

And the bible is clearly talking about “the angels who sinned.” (2 Peter 2:4) Also I was responding to Itisnowagain who said "I am consistent with the scriptures about angels do not sin"; obviously talking about the angels as discussed in the bible, and demonstrated by 2 Peter 2:4 that he is not being consistent with the Scriptures (the bible) no matter what argument follows about the word "holy". Since 2 Peter 2:4 is clearly talking about “the angels who sinned.”

There's no doubt about it from a biblical perspective (or vagueness, unclarity), demons are “the angels who sinned.” I and Peter are not part of your "we" in that statement of yours, as are many other people who take the bible seriously when it says something. Another term you'll often hear for demons is "fallen angels", which again identifies them as angels (who have fallen from grace). Everyone who uses the term "fallen angel(s)" is still calling them angels. So not part of the "we" in your statement that "we don't call them angels anymore".

Angels were created with personalities, divine qualities, and free will. Hence, like humans, they can choose to do right or wrong. Sadly, some angels chose to rebel against God.​—Jude 6:

And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 also shows that because angels can sin, we know that they have free will (otherwise you cannot sin or disobey God). The logic works the same regarding Jude 6 and there are many more bible texts like that.