What comes after Heaven or Hell

a reply to: DpatC

I have some answers that may defy conventional dogma on this.

First on ATS I have threads that completely debunk the myth of hell, nobody is going to a place where you are burning alive forever where the demons and Satan will live. There is a place called the lake of fire, but imagine a lake of magma nothing could live in there, in fact anything that goes in there ceases to exist permanently, soul death per say.
And there are people that have gone into that and no longer exist, Judas Iscariot is one example.

Second, yes some good people go to heaven but not all, basically a good person who never accepted or believed in Jesus can't and won't go to heaven. But fall into the group most people that have lived and died are in.
This group of people would include a Chinese person that lived and died 3000 years ago with no knowledge of either Judaism or Christianity, not their fault they were born in the wrong time and place.

The bible says they get a resurrection, and if it's not to heaven it must be to this earth once God has cleaned it up and fixed it.

Acts 24:15 answers the who.

And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Psalms 37:29 answer the where

The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.

Christendom has muddied the reality of truth with dogma like hell-fire and purgatory. These doctrines where enshrined when people couldn't read the bible for themselves to check what the clergy was saying was the truth when they were just money grabbing scare tactics, that are just lies made to control people.

According to the Bible scripture after events happen from the Anti-Christ that persecutes all Christians and people who refuse The Mark of the Beast ... Which has to do with denying Jesus is the only Truth and God......However notice also this Mark of the Beast has something to do with buying and selling....So my opinion is whoever receives this mark will be able to buy and sell all other people will be given a warning to take the mark or you will be killed or starved to death...At some point they are gonna force you to deny Christ whomever the Anti-Christ is or you will be killed.....I think this causes The Battle of Armageddon which the Bible warns about...After this I think people who gave their life to Christ return in new bodies.....This might be similar to what bible scripture teaches and what Christ and prophecy says......This is what I believe and no soul ever escapes the torment of hell.......Got to take this by faith.

Jesus clearly teaches all people who deny Him will go to hell where their worm or soul shall never be quenched of thirst.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Sorry, but Genesis 1:27, refer to humankind, not one man called Adam alone. Plus, giving birth does not necessary mean bringing life. A lot of parents end up with dead babies either, at birth or during pregnancy.

I wish i could help you but evidently someone has confused your understanding of scripture. When the Creator formed Adam from that which He created, He formed a perfect man from a perfect substance. When the Creator formed all that He Created it was good and evil was not present in that which He formed. The Creator could not instill the imperfect in that which was formed from the perfect least He become corrupt Himself and that is impossible.

To think otherwise is to accuse the Creator in creating disease and death in his creation. The Creator did not create the imperfect into His perfect work but through His permissive will allowed the perfect to become imperfect through their own cognitive. Then where was sin before sin became accountable? Sin was present before sin was made visible but was not instilled in that which was good. God knew sin before He formed the perfect world otherwise that which He formed could not have been good.

To believe that God made each and every human since Adam is a complete misunderstanding of what you have been taught. If that be true then judgement will not be needed after death for God then can be accused as being an imperfect God who created sin in all that He formed. That is blasphemy and an abomination to the Creator. To understand what I am trying to relate, the human race is not created or formed except through imperfect pro- creation of that which became corrupt. Not one of the Adamic species of humans are of the same content as was Adam. Adam sinned and then procreated sin thereafter. This is why every entity must have a afterlife judgment.

originally posted by: Whatsthisthen
a reply to: EasternShadow

Whatsthisrthen... I w2as forwarded this website on a different post relating to the Sumerian text Nanshe and the birds..The articles on Cuneiform may be of interest in your studies --- I hope you are keeping well

www.naturepagan.com...

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: EasternShadow

I wish i could help you but evidently someone has confused your understanding of scripture. When the Creator formed Adam from that which He created, He formed a perfect man from a perfect substance. When the Creator formed all that He Created it was good and evil was not present in that which He formed. The Creator could not instill the imperfect in that which was formed from the perfect least He become corrupt Himself and that is impossible.

Nope. There is no misunderstanding. I read the commentaries. That is not what the Bible translators meant by God creates man in his own image. In the image of God man is created.

That we are made by God, in the image of God, is what gives all men and women deep value. That point is echoed throughout the Bible. James, for instance, points out that we ought not curse human beings because they (we) are made in God's likeness (James 3:9)

www.bibleref.com...

The ancient Jews who received this words do not subscripe to Christian [modern] thinking of first sin, which lead you to such conclusion. Therefore, it is obvious, it is just your opinion. And not God's will as written in Genesis 1:27.

However, I will counter your christian Gnostic's view with regard to imperfection to God's creation.

Perfection is subjective. I could say dark skin thick lip people are ugly or imperfect, but I know many people will disagree. Because beauty is in the eye of beholders. God knows everything past present and future. Why he allows free will for human to commit sin and become "imperfect" to you is His own thinking and reasoning. Sure you can question God's rational, but it doesn't nullify that everything God created is good.

Disease are byproduct of microorganisms entering foreign bodies. By nature and God's will, micro organisms is created to maintain the balance and to make sure God's creations survival. This include plant and animal. It's not God's fault if human decide to eat unclean animals and plants and get sick or damage hereditary genes, when God told them NOT to do so. Sin is byproduct of disobeying God. You are told NOT to do it. But you disobey. How is it God's fault?

God plan everything for human to be perfect along with plant and animals. This include micro organisms such as virus and bacteria, which are vital to life, but also harmful if they enter wrong flesh. But if human choose to mistreat life when God told them NOT to, then how is become God's imperfection?

What did God say about His creation. He said everything is good, in Genesis.

Just because we lack proper insight and judgement to weight the benefit of God's creations and design such as free will, it doesn't make God anything less or imperfect. We are only his creation and infant babies who don't understand much about the earth we are living now.

But hey, God knows his babies are going to become cranky and throw tantrum and call him bad father, anyway. Do you really think it would bother Him as a father? Don't be silly. He is going to do what He plan to do, no matter how much you protest. Because human will never understand until they learn and mature the responsibility of being the image of God. Until then keep making mistake or sin, because that is quite normal for babies to grow up.

a reply to: DpatC

Thanks for the reference to Nanshe, that is interesting. I read of her on wikipedia.

". . . she is a mother for the orphan." - a goddess after my own heart. There are so many orphans that I stopped counting long ago.

Ereshkigal.



Ereshkigal is the "mother" of a race of "orphans" from antideluvian times whom I call Tama. Not exactly the children of Ereshkigal as we think of the word "children". The Tama were bio-engineered in Ereshkigal's image one might say. They are child versions of the goddes who were denied puberty and adulthood.

The Tama might take me to Nanshe.

Thanks DpatC.

a reply to: EasternShadow

God plan everything for human to be perfect along with plant and animals. This include micro organisms such as virus and bacteria, which are vital to life, but also harmful if they enter wrong flesh. But if human choose to mistreat life when God told them NOT to, then how is become God's imperfection?Text

Quite right as far as you have said but you should back up a bit and realize that when the man was placed in the garden he was good and without sin. As long as he stayed in the garden he was not subjected to any diseases because diseases did not not exist in either the garden or the earth till after the man was cast out of the garden and both man and earth were then cursed. After the man and woman were cast from the Gan Eden was when both the earth and man became corrupt from the likeness of their Creator.

originally posted by: Seede
Quite right as far as you have said but you should back up a bit and realize that when the man was placed in the garden he was good and without sin. As long as he stayed in the garden he was not subjected to any diseases

He was, but he will never learn how to be a perfect creation if he didn't experience hardship in practical life. He will become spoil brat completely devoid of God's good traits and will end up like Satan, if he is not disciplined well. Human are not magically created to be intelligent creation. Their brain had to be educated. Neither human are created to know good and evil in the beginning or at birth. This is true to all human newborns.

originally posted by: Seede
because diseases did not not exist in either the garden or the earth till after the man was cast out of the garden and both man and earth were then cursed.

That's right. We create disease. We create nuke. We create hybrid animals. We create machinery. We create cities with stone, bricks and we power those cities with light. We create transportation. We create faster than sound Jet. We create battleship. We create Robot and AI. Our creation is limitless, just like God, because we ARE the image of God. We create in the likeness of God, almost anything.

Because we can create like God, we also deserve spanking from God. Cancer and disease is good reason why we deserve spanking from God. We are seriously inept to use our wisdom properly. We are not ready to take responsibility of knowing Good and Evil. That is why God is very angry with Adam and Eve eating the fruit.

originally posted by: Seede
After the man and woman were cast from the Gan Eden was when both the earth and man became corrupt from the likeness of their Creator.

Man was intended to live on Earth from the beginning. Not Eden. Adam eating forbidden fruit incident only accelerate God's plan. It doesn't take away man ability to know good and evil. It also doesn't take away, the image of God from us because we still can create things. Our intelligence is still as good as Adam.

Our consciousness maybe corrupted by the serpent temptation. But it's nothing new. The serpent has been tempting Eve from the beginning. Why would he stop now?

So no. "Corruption" is not imperfection. Mistake is not corruption. Neither it is imperfection. Babies immature body and mind is not corruption and imperfection of creation. It is as perfect as God's will.

What is not God's plan is our own desire to be tempted by the lawless serpent everyday in our life. What is not God's plan is we use our Godlike ability to create disease, evil robots, nuclear snd other mass destruction weapon to wipe out everyone else on this planet.
Because if we do that, we will get spanking and "time out" from God.

In short, we are still the image of God, because we can know what is good and what is evil. We are still the image of God, because we can create almost anything imaginable. Maybe one day, we all take our rightful place being one with God. But for now we have to deal with our "imperfectioness" and "corruption" maturely. Know that, everything has it consequences. Only then we can become good God, instead of evil god like Satan. It just need learning and understanding during our lifetime here on this blue marble planet, we call Earth.

Nansey was an odd dead end.

Perhaps like a lot of gods, who tend to acquire and who tend to try and take over, Nansey was no exception. The aquisition of territory is how I would word it.

All the "higher" disown and sweep under the carpet the history that does not fit their agendas. It is so very common.

That is untill someone else discovers it.

The Tama are ancient organic technology created by a race of humans who have moved on and orphaned their no longer needed accomplishments.

The "hells" have created a division in the world, a layer that divides the world from the so called Underworlds. It is as if hell was created not to punish, but to put in place a barrier to keep history unseen. The end of the world is "here".

So too, those children culled from human evolution and separated from having a future. Just left to decay.

An odd thing to me, those very "spiritual" authorities who used to step on me violently in the past for not obeying, and who acted so very superior, now want to try reasonableness.

Go figure

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the starry crown
Good Lord, show me the way!

O sisters, let's go down,
Let's go down, come on down
O sisters, let's go down
Down in the river to pray

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the robe and crown
Good Lord, show me the way!

O brothers, let's go down
Let's go down, come on down
Come on, brothers, let's go down
Down in the river to pray

As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about that good old way
And who shall wear the starry crown
Good Lord, show me the way!

O fathers, let's go down
Let's go down, come on down
O fathers, let's go down
Down in the river to pray
As I went down in the river to pray
Studying about…

www.youtube.com...

First... IF! You go to heaven. You enjoy it.
But... Then comes the other with the same right, be it for more or for less. Then your heaven fades into a terrible hell wherein you begin to despise the others version of heaven. So you make excuses ...

Second... IF! You go to hell... You delight in the idea that all too should go to hell for whatever reason you chose. That would be your heaven.

Third... If you choose to stay away from either one.
You are in for a treat. There you find yourself laughing your ass off at the whole of the other two.

a reply to: DpatC

No worries DpatC, I don't need saving nor direction really. I muddle along in my own way. For every thousand doors that I close after looking within, one opens to where I want to go.

Simply a process of elimination. Like finding Miss Right.

I found her in my American girl, even if she can't see that perfection in herself.

(wink) In looking for miss or master "Right" (as the case may be) the "Wrongs" along the way are often fun and just fine tunning, even if some of those "Wrongs" were truely mistakes.

a reply to: DpatC

Heaven and Hell is the Purgatory of those without little experience and no imagination.

But anyways I do believe that after heaven and hell comes being reincarnated as a piece of cheese. And then from there after million and billion of lifetimes of being cheese, you move to much more grander things like being reincarnated as a pineapple or maybe even a rock, and many many many life incarnations after that, eventually this sun and star things.

And after that? Well have you ever watched your favorite Simpsons episode at least 100 times? Does it not get kind of boring after a while. And so you move on from life to....Well... Ain't it all magical?

a reply to: DpatC

The bible doesn't say anything about a "Hell".
Are you thinking of Dante's Inferno?

a reply to: Whatsthisthen

Whatsthisthen -Check this website out You may get it more than others it also may help in your own studies
This is a thread a topic all in itself - hey that might be an Idea - DNA: The Most Holy Place

www.mostholyplace.com...

Anyway my main point is that there are many different levels on how one can read "A bible or an occult text" It all depends on what level or understanding your at. The mass majority will get a GOD a THE DEVIL a Messiah, a heaven or hell of some sorts. And they will argue that there level of interpretation is right

"Your God is the best God.
In fact, he's the only God.
All other Gods are ridiculous, made up rubbish.
Not yours though. Yours is real"
R Gervais

Let's take re-incarnation as an exsample, your not going to be reading or taking about something at Level 35, the last stage of re-incarnation than somebody who would be at level 10. You have done all that God/Devil Heaven or hell nonsence

A few are reading book's on Life Creation and DNA and than there are the texts that folk read in order to get home

There are many ways to read you just need to be pointed in the right direction in relation to the stage of the journey your on.If in Doubt all you got to do is ask!

The Multi Award winning Jazz Pianist, Liane Carroll once teamed up with the London Based Drumm and bassis outfit London Elektricity to as ask one question - WHy are we here - Its a great song

www.youtube.com...

I hope you enoy

originally posted by: prevenge
a reply to: DpatC

The bible doesn't say anything about a "Hell".
Are you thinking of Dante's Inferno?

The Bibile says alot about "Hell"


Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Just continuing on that theme we also have

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Psalm 9:17
17 The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, all the nations that forget God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Matthew 13:50
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Acts 2:27
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

Shall I continue?

My Bets are

1. You haven;t a clue as to what you are talking about
2. You have never read the bible
3. You have never read Dante!

a reply to: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Seede After the man and woman were cast from the Gan Eden was when both the earth and man became corrupt from the likeness of their Creator.

Reply by EasternShadow: Man was intended to live on Earth from the beginning. Not Eden. Adam eating forbidden fruit incident only accelerate God's plan. It doesn't take away man ability to know good and evil. It also doesn't take away, the image of God from us because we still can create things. Our intelligence is still as good as Adam.

My post above does not contend that we have lost the image of God but only that we have corrupted the likeness of God and the curse of both man and earth were the result of that corruptness. The image of God is Jesus and was the Word of God before He became man.

Adam was formed from two portions in his creation. One portion was of the image [Word] and the other portion was the likeness [Spirit God]. The Word formed Adam in His own Image from His Father’s Creation while the Spirit God gave life to that which the Word formed.

Moses teaches this –

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What I said in the above posting was that Adam became corrupt from the likeness of the Creator [Word] – meaning that Adam no longer had the same spirit as was in his creation. His spirit became corrupt in that he must now face death and face judgment of his spirit.

Now the universe will one day cease to exist and all terrestrial life will cease to exist as terrestrial life. All life that is accountable will be judged as to its worthiness to exist in the celestial realm of Gan Eden [Paradise].

You have said “Man was intended to live on Earth from the beginning. Not Eden.” That is not true at all according to the teachings of the Christ Jesus. Man was created to pro create a family who will become the children of the Father and live from the Gan Eden forever. The intent of the Father God is that people will be given the image of the Word and likeness of the Father with a new name of eternal life.

originally posted by: Seede
My post above does not contend that we have lost the image of God

But that's what you imply.Below is what you post earlier.

originally posted by: Seede
God created only one man in his image and in His likeness.

originally posted by: Seede
but only that we have corrupted the likeness of God and the curse of both man and earth were the result of that corruptness.

I can agree on corruption. And I would like to propose, God is well aware that we will be corrupted the moment He created Adam. For a good reason.

originally posted by: Seede
The image of God is Jesus and was the Word of God before He became man.

See? You still insist the image of God is limited to one person. First, you said Adam. Now you said Jesus.

originally posted by: Seede
Adam was formed from two portions in his creation. One portion was of the image [Word] and the other portion was the likeness [Spirit God]. The Word formed Adam in His own Image from His Father’s Creation while the Spirit God gave life to that which the Word formed.

Moses teaches this –

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What I said in the above posting was that Adam became corrupt from the likeness of the Creator [Word] – meaning that Adam no longer had the same spirit as was in his creation. His spirit became corrupt in that he must now face death and face judgment of his spirit.

And I have shown you, Bible commentaries with regard to Genesis 1:26. The translators obviously do not think "man" as a single man, limited to either Adam or Jesus. But all men.

originally posted by: Seede
Now the universe will one day cease to exist and all terrestrial life will cease to exist as terrestrial life. All life that is accountable will be judged as to its worthiness to exist in the celestial realm of Gan Eden [Paradise].

You said Judgement. But Paulian Christians believe salvation through faith alone, therefore judgement is irrelevant to christian. And it is also irrelevant to the unbelievers, because the unbelievers are condemned to be seperated from God. This leaves only the Israelites.

originally posted by: Seede
You have said “Man was intended to live on Earth from the beginning. Not Eden.” That is not true at all according to the teachings of the Christ Jesus.

If it is not true, then why did God plant the Forbidden Trees? The forbidden trees serve no purpose for God. Same thing with Earth creation. God can create billions of cursed lifeless barren planets. Like the forbidden tree, God does not need Earth. He can create utophian perfect Heaven. Why bother to create Earth?

God bothers because, God's already had plan for man to populate Earth. And God need cause to move man from Gan Eden. The Forbidden Tree aka human free will is the answer.

originally posted by: Seede
Man was created to pro create a family who will become the children of the Father and live from the Gan Eden forever.The intent of the Father God is that people will be given the image of the Word and likeness of the Father with a new name of eternal life.

Problem with this thesis is, it neglects the fact that God knows everything past, present and future. Not only that, this thesis indicates that God has flaw, because God fail to fulfill His intention.

God never fail, because God is prefect. We also need to remember, everything good can only come from God, and God does not tempt anyone to cause Evil. Therefore, all the suffering are cause and effect by human themselves. Man create disease such as cancer, HIV, and man mutate their own genes in horrible way, because man actively indulge themselves with immoral behavior. Our ancestors raped slaves, kept whores, ate uncleaned animals such as pigs and bats. And we will continue to create disaster as long as we remain disobedient to God's commandment. This is our own fault for not being able to resist the temptation inside our heart. God hates our sin. But that doesn't mean He hate us as his creation. How can a father hate his own creation? No parents will see imperfection in their children. So does our Father in Heaven.

Because we both agree man is accountable for their own action, and they are judged based on their accountability, therefore Paul's doctrine Salvation by Faith alone is false.

Jews understand very well God's judgement fall on their shoulders. But do Christian and the rest of mankind understand this?

a reply to: EasternShadow

originally posted by: Seede My post above does not contend that we have lost the image of God

You said But that's what you imply.Below is what you post earlier.

originally posted by: Seede God created only one man in his image and in His likeness.

Let me explain to you what all of this means.

There is a difference between creation and pro creation.

Only Adam was formed from that which was created. Eve was procreated from Adam and all of the rest of humanity was pro created from Adam and Eve. The rest of humanity was not and is not created by God but is procreated by people. God knows each and every every person that has and will be pro created but has nothing to do with that act of pro creation. That act of pro creation is performed by the free will of each and every human that is pro created. Adam and Eve did have the image of the Creator and all humans also have the image of the Creator even though that image is marred by physical abnormalities caused by sin.

The likeness of humans is the life or spirit and is not the image of humans. The image of a terrestrial human is the terrestrial flesh, bone and blood and not the celestial likeness of spirit. God has two celestial portions which are His image and His likeness. His image is shown as His "Word" and His likeness is His spiritual existence.

Getting back to what I have said is that God created only one man. By creation is meant that God's "Word" formed only one man in His image and that man was Adam. God's likeness [Spirit God] then gave Adam a portion of His likeness [Spirit] and Adam became a living soul. All people from Adam onward are pro created humans who also bear the corrupt image of Adam. I say corrupt because from Adam, who sinned, came all corruption of the image of humanity through the acts of pro creation. God did not nor does He now create each and every soul.

If God would have created each individual then it could be said that God creates sin. How so? Simply because every human that has ever been pro created or will be pro created is corrupt and is not of the purity of the original pattern that was Adam before Adam sinned. Jesus was not pro created. Jesus was conceived in His own celestial image with the likeness of His Father.

a reply to: DpatC

Or you can just go and learn first hand about things bypassing the texts.

It's a different world out there, and very much closer then one would think from reading. It is also a dangerous place, but so are big cities if it is after dark and you are in the wrong part of town. One needs to learn to be street smart and be very polite.

Ahriman is closer then people think and he has a sense of humour.

I first met him while trying to destroy a black lodge and was loosing. A big dark presence made itself felt and began to help. One knew instinctively who it was.

I asked: "What are YOU helping ME?"

The response was: "I don't like competition."

I learned a lot that day. How Ahriman corrupts the corrupt and leads them to self destruction.

Believe it or not Ahriman is one of the good guys in a manner of speaking.

And reincarnation?

Well, iterations of self is how it works.

The texts divide the world into layers. "You are here" "this is there". The map says "100 lifetimes to your destination" or "destination at an altitude of 100 miles".

We believe and put ourselves "here" and we put someone "there" with all that distance between. We are defeated already.

That is called Relative Positioning