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"Progress" = Stuck in the Past

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posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 10:58 AM
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Its a funny thing about Identity Politics, that where on the one side there's an obvious appeal to tradition, and on the other side there's an overt obsession with times past. There's a thick irony there, when supposedly each is supposed to be diametrically opposed. But do either or both have to be unhealthy if not dangerous?

I recall back in the Myspace (Dubya) days this huge list of metrics that showed the US in something of a freefall of decline. The list had all sorts of specifics within categories such as education, health, income / prosperity, science and so on. 'Everyone' was posted it in their blog, and across the 'bulletin' system. It was jaw dropping to behold, and caused quite a stir. I mean it was long, like 50 or 100 points of reference it took a while to read all the way to the end of the page of darkness, I doubt very many that tried could even bear to read it all...

Then along comes this "Make America Great Again" slogan, which it seemed obvious to me was in reference to the ilk of the aforementioned downward spiral list. Where for two years now when I've seen supporters of the slogan speak towards it, the scope of that list is the only impression I've gathered people to be speaking towards. And those people mostly all tend to be of the "traditions" (conservative) sorts.

Then there's the "other" team. The ones all against that slogan, and traditions, the people obsessed with "progress". Via the slogan its become clear that traditions are inherently an appeal to "white privilege", in the minds of these identity obsessed sorts. The "logic" flows that never mind making "America" the best place for the entirety of its citizens, all that matters is that minorities didnt always have equal rights, that women couldnt always vote, LGBT peoples used to have to hide completely, Christian's were the majority, and so on.

My impression of the two is that one wants to maintain the idealism of the past, and the other wants to dwell in the negativity of the past. For the latter it seems to to them all they can do is obsess about their selfish group identity, and that they're so completely lost in this kind of ('racist') thinking that they cant even conceive of the idea that anybody else couldnt be. This is where the "Horseshoe Spectrum" makes its mark, as this obsession with "anti-bigotry" twists the member of a group into becoming the very thing its supposed to be against: a bigot. What else could we call it when someone smears the idealism of others as being the 'worst' thing the accuser (a "racist") could label them for it as?

While the real bitch of it all is the "progressive" attitude is supposedly all about moving forward, yet all it can do is think in purely 'racist' terms which is the very past they claim to be trying to 'save' us all from.




posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:00 AM
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If anyone can remember that big list of decline thing I'm talking about please do dig it up.




posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:20 AM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss


I think there is a deliberate attempt to repeat the failures of the past because we constantly obsess over it.


We are not an enlightened species. We still do the same things that were done countless thousands of years ago. The only difference is our tools have become more efficient.


Our most fundamental behaviors have not changed, and probably will not change.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:30 AM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You had me until -- Negativity of the Past.

Progression, opening new doors, seeing life with a broader scope, releasing the bonds of gender roles, acceptance of difference in people --- is not stomping on the past.

Individuals, groups can still cling to their personal traditions.

They just can't expect or force others to join them.

It is sad that "laws of acceptance" have to be forced. Such as the Disability Act. Prior to that act, a person with a disability could be forced to leave a business (such as a restaurant), because it made another customer uncomfortable.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:31 AM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

It's hard to not become conservative as much of human consciousness is rooted in past experrience. Who we were yesterday and the day before is likely to be who we are tomorrow. True progressiveness relies upon leaving older ''programs'' behind when we see that they do not work, not pushing harder and harder and digging a hole of ''here is how it is done''.
I agree with many conservatives that the democrat ''old guard'' are mired in the past, making them to my eyes, conservatives themselves. This notion that Pelosi and others seem to have that they are the vanguard of the liberal movement is bass ackwards. They should all move aside and allow younger fresher minds who are of the coming generations give things a try.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:39 AM
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Statistically speaking history is destined to repeat itself. There are constants such as hunger, lust for power, jealousy, hatred, among many others that ensure repetition. Thinking of tyrants in history we are destined to wake up one normal day and end it all for one man or woman's pride.

The biggest clear and present danger is the atomic age. Think of the power one human holds in his or her hands. Look what we have done to our home and the beauty we have destroyed in the name of progress. We are barbaric in the way we lead our lives.

In the end thousands of years from now someone or thing will be pondering this exact question.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:42 AM
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“Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it”.


I think if you dig a bit deeper into the mindset of those who denounce the “Make America Great Again” mantra, you’ll find tha the bone of their contention is that not all of the values of the past are conducive to what makes America great.

You claim that they are “focused on the negativity” of the past, to the exclusion of cherished values. In fact, it is merely the realization that, in its enduring optimism, human nature tends to forget the pains of the past, and in so doing, sets itself up for even greater pains.

Go, make America great.

But as you do so, remember what made America not so great for many of its citizens in the past, and strive to avoid those errors in the future, don’t be merely satisfied with what once was, Again.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:46 AM
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a reply to: Annee

It’s not seeing things in a broader scope, it’s making a broader scope and forcing people see it, there is a huge difference

So you think you can force a baker to make a cake?? If your answer is yes, everything you said above is...Balony sauce



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: Annee

Yeah but all to often these days if a person
doesn't align with the lefts idea of
progressivism they are ostracized for
it and seems to me the left has a vast
mainstream platform for it.

Yeah I can hold traditions but the media
acts like I'm the devil for it!



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:53 AM
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a reply to: Annee


Individuals, groups can still cling to their personal traditions.

Really?


BANNED: Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

Not to mention the hoards of comments I have seen on this very site condemning my entire culture over an issue that was stopped 160 years ago...

Tell me again how I can cling to my traditions? Maybe how I can respect my heritage?

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: Annee

So then we need to agree on what is the correct 'ideology'? Is your gender free world the correct way? How do you measure the correct path, through contentment and peace?

What are your thoughts on certain religions that suppresses females to the point of making them wear head to toe covering? What happens if they are content and happy with that structure? Should you have any say in their life?

What happens if a disability prevents you from doing a specific job? Is it up to the employer to accommodate you or are you responsible for yourself?

What happens if people prefer a certain group and thrive in that environment without any malice or harm? Do you have a right to force them into your ideals?



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 11:58 AM
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originally posted by: SocratesJohnson
a reply to: Annee

It’s not seeing things in a broader scope, it’s making a broader scope and forcing people see it, there is a huge difference

So you think you can force a baker to make a cake?? If your answer is yes, everything you said above is...Balony sauce






The Broader Scope is always there.

Unlocking man made social constraints, taboos, superstitions, etc -- is progression.

Laws (force) sadly is required.

However, this generally (in many cases), coincides with a majority society push.

I am a 100% supporter of separation of church and state. That should cover any question about a business trying to use religion to discriminate.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 12:05 PM
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originally posted by: VividestSum93
a reply to: Annee

Yeah but all to often these days if a person
doesn't align with the lefts idea of
progressivism they are ostracized for
it and seems to me the left has a vast
mainstream platform for it.

Yeah I can hold traditions but the media
acts like I'm the devil for it!


Progression doesn't have a Left or Right IMO.

Why would Equal Rights/Equal Opportunity, rights to your own body (includes euthanasia), separation of church and state -- be a Left/Right issue?



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 12:07 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss


My impression of the two is that one wants to maintain the idealism of the past, and the other wants to dwell in the negativity of the past.

That is a fantastic OP and well sums up what I see between the two sides. And both are wrong.

The past is not good or evil... it simply is. People make good decisions and bad decisions all the time. Smart, intelligent people learn from the bad decisions what not to do and keep the good decisions. That's called "progress."

Yet, we seem to have another attitude toward what "progress" is now-a-days. Apparently, some want to keep the memories of the bad first and foremost in others' minds, ensuring a repeat performance, while degrading all of the good in the past along with the bad. That's not progress; that is regress. There are many lessons in the past I for one do not want to repeat, and there are many successes that I want to continue. MAGA means keeping the successes and building on them, not keeping the failures.

Before I go off on one of my overly long-winded spiels, let me just say, "Fantastic OP and thank you for putting the problem so succinctly."

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 12:21 PM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Identity/group politics, mostly between the Red/Blue factions has had well over 150 years of overreaching influence into the abilities for individuals to collect thoughts and debates into a construct that can act as anything more than bickering for what groups within the Red/Blue settle with as a decision to be had on behalf of individuals. Count in the realities that the American voters allowed for businesses to gain votes that are equal to or greater than the vote of an individual citizen, and the once powerful vote of an individual is nearly immediately dismissed to being irrelevant to what groups have formed.

I vote as an individual... simply because the U.S. pioneers offered their lives for rights to vote as an individual. I am not asked to give my life to vote as an individual, but I do feel as if voting per my standards of individuality is my civic duty as an American citizen.

To watch individual citizens ban together to form groups to increase the likely outcome of voting in their groups favor is outlandish beyond measure. To watch what is designed as a citizen ran government unfold to be a system of which career politicians use the finances of business to lessen the value of an individual's vote is one of the most embarrassing ascpects of American society.

Red/Blue voters allow for the credibility of voters that vote on standards of individuality to erode... and damn near vanish. Red/Blue voters removed their individual responsibility to vote on a standard of "citizens" long ago, and even trust the career politician/party of choice to handle such matters to the tune of making them as two groups among the wealthiest citizens in the lands... to simply keep from the actual responsibility of voting out of their laps as citizens of ignorance. To allow for the Red, Blue, and Big Business to keep the group identity voting system as thriving as is witnessed should be squarely blamed on the 300,000,000 plus citizens that allow for such lowly standards to exist in the first place.


en.wikipedia.org...


1/5 of the wealthiest counties in the U.S. reside in and around the hired career politician sectors of the federal government... that is purely sickening, and voters allowed for it to happen. Politicians should be serving their civic duty for a term of 2 at the maximum, then riding off into the sunset feeling proud that they tried to serve 300,000,000 plus individuals... not making careers out of the inabilities for voters to remove the confidence in a largely manipulated political system of gang colors... Red, Blue, and Green.

Just face it voters... if you are voting Red or Blue there is an ornate ability within your reasoning that is pushing the burdens of responsibility out of your lap to a very large degree. The bulk of people voting on such premises aren't even established in fixing the problems at their own feet, let alone carrying on the stronger problems of the world... feeling as if they're built to address the global scale issues instead of the problems they may face as an individual.

Well, that makes no sense to me. If one can't even make their own bed in the morning yet feels as if the world is better suited to be healed by the logic of a person that avoids their own personal problems, it yields a voting and political field that demands trust in others to fix all problems in the world... including their lack of bed making each morning.

So, there is group politics identified from the eyes of an individual. It's so far gone to this point, that the individual has been made to be irrelevant at best... a crackpot conspiracy theorist as the least. I will never relinquish my civic duties as a voter, and have made myself calm within the chaos of responsibility mismanagement. The day someone catches me voting Red or Blue and join those that require trust in a faction to stand on behalf of an individual's thoughts is the day I have been bought and or sold out.

The day voters get off their high horses, vote on a standard of individuality, and take ownership of their responsibility to vote on behalf of citizens and not fortune 500 businesses will be the day that ATS readers will see stars put back on my avatar. It saddens me to think that my avatar will remain as is... being that votes for politicians have long been removed from the standards of U.S. citizen individuality.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 12:26 PM
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a reply to: Annee

I agree true progression doesn't have a
Left/right! my belief is the country
Can't be pure left or pure right
Because either side isn't just going
Disappeare when other is in power.



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 12:52 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck


That's not progress; that is regress. There are many lessons in the past I for one do not want to repeat, and there are many successes that I want to continue.


Actually, your whole reply sang true to me Neck. However you then finished with



MAGA means keeping the successes and building on them, not keeping the failures.


My observations on the successes and failures of the past must be polar opposite of yours so that even though I agree with your assesments and thoughts above. I'm not saying you are wrong or I am wrong, it is just that this conundrum seems to pop up a lot around here, know what I'm getting at?

These two sides, or perspectives agree on so much but when it comes down to ''actionable'' efforts some believe Trump is the facilitator while others like me see him as completely regressive.

Maybe it has to do with ideals, what are our ideals. What ya think?



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 01:05 PM
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originally posted by: VividestSum93
a reply to: Annee

I agree true progression doesn't have a
Left/right! my belief is the country
Can't be pure left or pure right
Because either side isn't just going
Disappeare when other is in power.


Who tries to open doors?

Who tries to keep them closed?



posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 01:39 PM
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Unless it comes to civil war statutes, we stomp them into the past! Bury it deep down inside and pretend it never happened! Progressivism a reply to: Annee




posted on Aug, 18 2018 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: Annee



Who tries to open doors?


Gentlemen


Who tries to keep them closed?


Feminist who hate men opening doors for them

Quad



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