What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Abednego

Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.

Who are these 2 other individuals you speak of…?

You seem to think that there is the Father…some other entity (presumable the Body) and then You…lol

No no no…One of those 2 entities/experiences is You…your Soul…

Your body is not an individual…YOU are the individual and Your Soul is the real You…

The Father and the Son work in harmony together within every individual.

Granted, the realisation is not an illusion (It’s Very Real), but the idea that there is now a unique third entity/person existing after realisation…is an illusion.

There is no third one…the third one lol is really the second one lol coming to realisation.

In other words, the Son still exists as he did before; but only now with new found realisation…but he’s still the same being/experience, because he was always one with God to begin with…prior to realisation…

A change in character does not mean a change in substance…The Son is still the Son but only with a new found Character.

What became true after, was always true beforehand…

Originally posted by Abednego
In the case of God He is One and two and three at the same time. He is the unity.
That is why Jesus said that whoever has seen him has seen the father. ( In my case is the same, whoever has seen me has seen my father because I am a manifestation of him).
…
…

The word “see” in that verse you’re talking about above is more accurately translated as know, perceive and understand. Jesus meant they had come to know the Father, not literally see him. No man can see God and live.

They had come to know the Father speaking through Jesus, and they also came to know the Son. This is why Jesus said trust in God and trust also in me!
It’s also why Jesus said…Is it not written in your Law that the testimony of 2 witnesses is true…I testify for myself!!! My other witness is the Father who sent me.

- JC

I think you did not understand me.
I never said that the body is an individual. I said " we are body, soul and spirit". The three made me and you. Because we are three, because God made man as His image and likeness.
The third one is a manifestation of the two.

Of course the "see" is not to be taken literally.
But I guess you missed where I said "I"ll try to explain very simply".

a reply to: BlueJacket

Originally posted by Abednego
There are esoteric, as well as exoteric definitions...Im fairly sure you get that, however your response is wildly off what I was offering.

yod he ...he is what I refered to as the name of God. using that information, the practice of distilling the real trinity not the silly grade school version purported by certain exoteric religious control systems, brings a depth of understanding that answers your OP.

I shouldnt of engaged the conversation frankly, but I did. Nothing I said is lol worthy to anyone thats put forth even minimal hermetic effort.

People can laugh at themselves are at something they find funny…It doesn’t mean they’re laughing AT you…or that they are being disrespectful…

You shouldn’t take things so personal…

Now please…what do you mean by “the practice of distilling the real trinity” using Gods name…etc…?

Does this come from the “The Corpus Hermetica”…I haven't read the whole book only parts of it…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

If i told you then God would not look favorable upon myself.

I will say seek and you shall find but it takes wisdom to recognize the truth of what you ask.

You may have seen it several times before but threw it by the wayside.

a reply to: Abednego

Originally posted by Abednego
I think you did not understand me.
I never said that the body is an individual. I said " we are body, soul and spirit". The three made me and you. Because we are three, because God made man as His image and likeness.

I did not misunderstand you…


You talked about a “third one” in your post below, so I had to presume this “third one” is the body…based on the context of your last sentence below…

Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.

Firstly, I’m not saying the body is an illusion…I’m saying the idea of a unique entity existing, (a third one) other than that of the Spirit and Soul, is an illusion.


And secondly, there's no need to make in “three” because the body is just an image. God is not the Body. When people talk about the Trinity they are talking about the essence/substance that makes up God…and we know that God is Spirit not flesh.

The Spirit and the Soul make up God, for they are what is experiencing life…The body isn’t experiencing life, it’s only relaying it, to the Soul and Spirit within it…IMO


- JC

a reply to: Isurrender73

Originally posted by Isurrender73
His father would not be the first or the last or the firstborn. For the father was before even this creation which has been made through his son, our God. The father has no beggining and no ending. The father was never the firstborn, the father does not equate his existence to time, for time has no hold on the Father.

Here's your first problem; in Isaiah 44-6 Both the Lord and his redeemer are being mentioned, so there’s two beings there.

And the phrase the “first and the last” (similar to the Alpha and Omega) is a common term used in the Bible to denote an eternal entity or being…

Your next problem, is that the first entity is being named Jehovah and the second (the Redeemer) is also called Jehovah too…

Are you a Mormon…?


- JC

a reply to: howtonhawky

Do you know the mystery of the Trinity…?

Simple question…


- JC

The Mystery

Excerpt:

Paul, who met Jesus face to face after His resurrection wrote, “Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory” (1 Timothy 3:16). Indeed as Paul stated, it is a mystery that has challenged Biblical scholars down through the ages.

Before Jesus was crucified, He spoke about the third member of the Trinity, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you (John 14:26). There are many other instances of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as well as the New; you will find them if you look for His presence starting with His works at the beginning of creation. You are encouraged to diligently search thru scripture to get to know the Triune God; a loving Father, the Savior His Son, and the Holy Spirit who resides in us today.

Very interesting subject, as for me, I believe in the Trinity.

originally posted by: DaphneApollo
The Mystery

Excerpt:

Paul, who met Jesus face to face after His resurrection wrote, “Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory” (1 Timothy 3:16). Indeed as Paul stated, it is a mystery that has challenged Biblical scholars down through the ages.

Before Jesus was crucified, He spoke about the third member of the Trinity, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you (John 14:26). There are many other instances of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament as well as the New; you will find them if you look for His presence starting with His works at the beginning of creation. You are encouraged to diligently search thru scripture to get to know the Triune God; a loving Father, the Savior His Son, and the Holy Spirit who resides in us today.

Very interesting subject, as for me, I believe in the Trinity.

Im gona cut you some slack, because your taste in Music is soooooooo Dang Good lol


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft



Aww ... thank you. That's very sweet. But, don't hold back. Let me know what you disagree with.

Agree to disagree peacefully.

I had some worries posting on here anyway to begin with. You are so rough with your religious view points. LOL !!!!

But carry on Pastor Croft. You've got me stumped.

a reply to: DaphneApollo

Originally posted by
Aww ... thank you. That's very sweet. But, don't hold back. Let me know what you disagree with.

Agree to disagree peacefully.

Funny how you arrive, post an Excerpt and a link with “mystery” as it’s title...as if that solves the mystery an all…when we're like 5 pages into the thread lol

And the link doesn’t even work…lol

Originally posted by
I had some worries posting on here anyway to begin with. You are so rough with your religious view points. LOL !!!!

“Rough” Lol

Worries…were you scared King Kong was gona eat ya lol

There’s nothing to be afraid of here…come on in…

Originally posted by
But carry on Pastor Croft. You've got me stumped.

What is it that’s stumping you exactly…?


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: DaphneApollo

Originally posted by
Aww ... thank you. That's very sweet. But, don't hold back. Let me know what you disagree with.

Agree to disagree peacefully.

Funny how you arrive, post an Excerpt and a link with “mystery” as it’s title...as if that solves the mystery an all…when we're like 5 pages into the thread lol

And the link doesn’t even work…lol

Originally posted by
I had some worries posting on here anyway to begin with. You are so rough with your religious view points. LOL !!!!

“Rough” Lol

Worries…were you scared King Kong was gona eat ya lol

There’s nothing to be afraid of here…come on in…

Originally posted by
But carry on Pastor Croft. You've got me stumped.

What is it that’s stumping you exactly…?


- JC

Link

Thanks for the hospitality . . . I guess

stumped no more ... got it.

a reply to: Joecroft

Isaiah 44:6. Yahweh is Israel’s Melek and Go’el. He is Yahweh Tsebaoth.

Yahweh is both. There is no other person being mentioned. Many translators agree that this passage implies Yahweh is both King/Lord and Redemer.

I suggest you are the one in error as there are no contradictions to be found in the interpretation that has been given to me.

No I am not Mormon. I do not follow any denomination. I follow the interpretation that came to me as inspiration through prayer.

Jesus is both Lord and Redemer. The NT agrees with me.

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."

Isaiah 44:6 and Acts 2:36 say the same thing about YWHW Elohim/Jesus Christ. The NT confirms that our God/Christ has a father. The Israelites knew of only one Lord. The claim in Acts is blasphemy if Jesus is not YHWH Elohim.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Abednego

Originally posted by Abednego
I think you did not understand me.
I never said that the body is an individual. I said " we are body, soul and spirit". The three made me and you. Because we are three, because God made man as His image and likeness.

I did not misunderstand you…


You talked about a “third one” in your post below, so I had to presume this “third one” is the body…based on the context of your last sentence below…

Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.

Firstly, I’m not saying the body is an illusion…I’m saying the idea of a unique entity existing, (a third one) other than that of the Spirit and Soul, is an illusion.


And secondly, there's no need to make in “three” because the body is just an image. God is not the Body. When people talk about the Trinity they are talking about the essence/substance that makes up God…and we know that God is Spirit not flesh.

The Spirit and the Soul make up God, for they are what is experiencing life…The body isn’t experiencing life, it’s only relaying it, to the Soul and Spirit within it…IMO


- JC

Again. You did not understand me. It was just an example.
The third one is not the body, is the manifestation of the other two. And it can be anything. Whatever God choose to manifest.

First God is not just spirit, He is all, He is spirit, soul and body or matter. Everything is contained in Him.
But He alone cannot manifest, so He did it through Jesus.

You are contradicting yourself when you say the body is just an image, therefore there is only two. Because that image is something, even if it is just an image is a manifestation of something else. So you end up with three anyway.

I recognize this is not easy to explain or understand. Anyway I always enjoy a nice debate, always learned and see thing from different angles.
I can recommend you to read Kabbalah, Pistis Sophia. Not just read, but read.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Abednego

Originally posted by Abednego
I think you did not understand me.
I never said that the body is an individual. I said " we are body, soul and spirit". The three made me and you. Because we are three, because God made man as His image and likeness.

I did not misunderstand you…


You talked about a “third one” in your post below, so I had to presume this “third one” is the body…based on the context of your last sentence below…

Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.

Firstly, I’m not saying the body is an illusion…I’m saying the idea of a unique entity existing, (a third one) other than that of the Spirit and Soul, is an illusion.


And secondly, there's no need to make in “three” because the body is just an image. God is not the Body. When people talk about the Trinity they are talking about the essence/substance that makes up God…and we know that God is Spirit not flesh.

The Spirit and the Soul make up God, for they are what is experiencing life…The body isn’t experiencing life, it’s only relaying it, to the Soul and Spirit within it…IMO


- JC

Again. You did not understand me. It was just an example.
The third one is not the body, is the manifestation of the other two. And it can be anything. Whatever God choose to manifest.

First God is not just spirit, He is all, He is spirit, soul and body or matter. Everything is contained in Him.
But He alone cannot manifest, so He did it through Jesus.

You are contradicting yourself when you say the body is just an image, therefore there is only two. Because that image is something, even if it is just an image is a manifestation of something else. So you end up with three anyway.

I recognize this is not easy to explain or understand. Anyway I always enjoy a nice debate, always learned and see thing from different angles.
I can recommend you to read Kabbalah, Pistis Sophia. Not just read, but read.

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Isurrender73

And the phrase the “first and the last” (similar to the Alpha and Omega) is a common term used in the Bible to denote an eternal entity or being…

Not always. The context shows what it's referring to.

Who is “the first and the last”?

The Bible applies this term both to Jehovah God and to his Son, Jesus, but with different meanings. Consider two examples.

- At Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah says: “I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.” Here Jehovah highlights that he is the everlasting true God; besides him, there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:​35, 39) In this case, then, the expression “the first and the last” has the same meaning as “the Alpha and the Omega.”

- Additionally, the term “the First [pro’tos, not alpha] and the Last [e’skha·tos, not omega]” occurs at Revelation 1:​17, 18 and 2:8. In these verses, the context shows that the one referred to died and later returned to life. Thus, these verses cannot refer to God because he has never died. (Habakkuk 1:​12) However, Jesus died and was resurrected. (Acts 3:​13-​15) He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life in heaven, where he now lives “forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:​18; Colossians 1:​18) Jesus is the one who performs all resurrections thereafter. (John 6:​40, 44) Therefore, he was the last one to be resurrected directly by Jehovah. (Acts 10:40) In this sense, Jesus can properly be called “the First and the Last.”

Source: Who or What Is “the Alpha and the Omega”?

Texts in which a title that belongs to Jehovah is applied to Jesus Christ or is claimed to apply to Jesus
...
At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)

Source: Trinity: Reasoning From the Scriptures
Btw, nowhere in the bible is Jesus referred to as "the Alpha and the Omega". Of course, as usual, Trinitarians have twisted a few verses to make it appear that way. I skipped those parts above. One example is discussed in the video below:

a reply to: Isurrender73

Messiah is not God in Judaism

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: whereislogic

I assume you believe Jesus is Gods redeemer…

Doesn't matter, Isaiah 44:6 is talking about Israel's redeemer (NW: "Repurchaser"). There's no mention of Jesus in any way shape or form (not talking about just by name).

Yet in Isaiah 44-6…Gods redeemer is given the same Name as God himself i.e. Jehovah…?

It's not talking about God's redeemer/Repurchaser, Jehovah is both Israel's King and Repurchaser. It all gets a lot easier to spot once one stops replacing "Jehovah" with "the LORD" or reading it like that (see bible references further below, that's what I'm actually referring to here, Exodus and Jeremiah, which show that Jehovah is Israel''s Repurchaser so one doesn't have to doubt who the "his" at Isaiah 44:6 is referring to).

Isaiah 44:6 (NW - Study edition)

This is what Jehovah says,

The King of Israel and his Repurchaser+, Jehovah of armies:

‘I am the first and I am the last.

There is no God but me.

+: Exodus 6:6

6 “Therefore, say to the Israelites: ‘I am Jehovah, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians and rescue you from their slavery, and I will reclaim [KJ: "redeem"] you with an outstretched* arm and with great judgments.

Jeremiah 50:34

34 But their Repurchaser is strong. [whereislogic: same Hebrew word]

Jehovah of armies is his name. [whereislogic: same Hebrew expression as at Isaiah 44:6]

He will surely plead their legal case,

In order to give rest to the land

And to bring agitation to the inhabitants of Babylon.”

Isaiah 43:14,15

This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel:

“For your sakes I will send to Babylon and bring down all the bars of the gates,

And the Chal·deʹans, in their ships, will cry out in distress.

15 I am Jehovah, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.”

After having been held captive in mighty Babylon for 70 years, God’s people will rejoice greatly at her fall. They will cry out: “There is One repurchasing us. Jehovah of armies is his name, the Holy One of Israel.” (Isaiah 47:4) Under the Mosaic Law, if an Israelite sold himself into slavery in order to pay off his debts, a repurchaser (a blood relative) could buy him, or repurchase him, out of slavery. (Leviticus 25:47-54) Since the Jews will have been sold into slavery to Babylon, they will need to be repurchased, or set free. For slaves, conquest normally means little more than a change of masters. But Jehovah will move conquering King Cyrus to release the Jews from slavery. Egypt, Ethiopia, and Seba will be given to Cyrus as “a ransom” in place of the Jews. (Isaiah 43:3) Appropriately, Israel’s Redeemer is called “Jehovah of armies.” Babylon’s seemingly powerful military force is puny when compared with Jehovah’s invisible, angelic hosts.

Source: False Religion—Its Dramatic End Foreseen (Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind II)
The same chapter in Isaiah also makes things quite clear, if you read on to verse 23, towards the end (chapter 44) you read:

For Jehovah has repurchased Jacob,

And on Israel he displays his splendor.”

24 This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,
...

Again showing that Jehovah is Jacob's/Israel's Repurchaser, "his Repurchaser". It's rather nonsensical to argue that Jehovah is Jehovah's Repurchaser as your interpretation for "his" at Isaiah 44:6 would have us do (or think).

DP

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Isurrender73

Messiah is not God in Judaism

I didn't say the Jews believed what I said. I said clearly this concept wasn't made clear until the NT which the Jews do not believe.

Jesusn is Lord/YHWH and Messiah/Redemer. Both the OT and NT agree. I already know you pick and chose what to believe. I believe the bible in it's entirety. Therefore, I point out when the OT and NT agree. Especially when someone who is in error is telling me I am in error.

a reply to: whereislogic

I know what you believe and I believe you are following an incorrect interpretation.

I believe Jesus/YWHW/Jehovah are one and I believe the one Son has a father.

I am rather certain you will not change your mind. But if Jesus is not YHWH/Jehovah then this verse in acts is blasphemy. YWHW/Jehovah was the only one the Jews accepted as Lord, and this verse is being spoken directly to the Jews.

Acts 2:36
Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."

You even acknowledge that only Jehovah and Jesus are depicted as first and last which again would be blasphemy if Jesus is not YWHW/Jehovah. Jehovah is a name for Jesus in the OT.

God the father in the OT is Elohim or sometimes Rauch Elohim where Rauch is used to show the femine/mother nature of God.

Your prophet made claims that did not come true. I have no reason to fear or follow the one you call prophet.