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originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Raggedyman
The Bible states “….he will guide you into ALL Truth” in John 16:13…
Which means, the Holy Spirit can reveal any type of truth to any man.
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.…
…
…
originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Joecroft
The ichthys (or the "Jesus fish" you see on the back of cars) is actually the vesica pisces, symbolizing that the Son (Jesus) is the middle part of two joined "circles".
What about the symbol of a fish? Objects dated as far back as the second century C.E. have been found bearing this figure along with the Greek word for fish, ICHTHÝS. This is understood by many as a cipher for the Greek expression Iesous CHristos THeou Yios Soter, meaning “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.” Is the fish a truly Christian symbol?
According to The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, fish frequently appear in ancient pagan symbolism, often apart from water scenes. “In such cases,” notes this reference work, “it would seem to have symbolic significance, possibly to represent deity, power, fecundity, etc.”
The same publication further notes that certain Jews adopted use of the fish symbol from pagan religious customs, adding: “It is probable that the considerations mentioned [in this regard] account in part for the appearance of the fish in the art of the oldest Christian catacombs. How early the Greek word for ‘fish’ (ichthýs) came to be interpreted as a cipher for ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior’ . . . we do not know; but once this identification was made, the fish became a standard Christian symbol.”
The Bible, however, sets forth no visible symbol for Christianity. ... Jesus taught that, rather than through visible symbols, “by this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”—John 13: 35.
While visible symbols have always been a feature of non-Biblical religions, they were absent from Christianity at its beginning. ...
originally posted by: DISRAELI
originally posted by: redletter
Jesus was born as a human... He was a real human. He was not faking being a human.
Yes, I agree. That is part of what "incarnation" means.
The point is covered in another of my threads;
Jesus is a man
I will not discuss these matters here, but there are other Incarnation threads available.
God and man; The meaning of Incarnation
The Greek pneuʹma (spirit) comes from pneʹo, meaning “breathe or blow,” and the Hebrew ruʹach (spirit) is believed to come from a root having the same meaning. Ruʹach and pneuʹma, then, basically mean “breath” but have extended meanings beyond that basic sense. (Compare Hab 2:19; Re 13:15.) They can also mean wind; the vital force in living creatures; one’s spirit; spirit persons, including God and his angelic creatures; and God’s active force, or holy spirit. (Compare Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, Leiden, 1958, pp. 877-879; Brown, Driver, and Briggs’ Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1980, pp. 924-926; Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Friedrich, translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol. VI, pp. 332-451.)
Cardinal John O’Connor stated about the Trinity: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”
...
Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”
originally posted by: whereislogic
Just so Trinitarian eisegesis doesn't confuse people regarding John 16:15 (see start of comment). John 3:35:
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
So someone else gave Jesus "all thing into his hand"; namely "The Father", who the Scriptures also describe as "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 1:3). That's how giving stuff works. Also it implies that the receiver didn't originally have what was given him. So a Trinitarian interpretation of John 16:15 doesn't work.
originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Well, in my opinion you can't have the unity without the duality. If you take the wave or particle aspect away then you don't have the "middle ground" either.
Think of it like a Venn Diagram (someone else mentioned this earlier), there are three distinct "sections" of the diagram, the two circles and then the area where they overlap. If you take one of the circles away the area in the middle goes away as well. Two parts which when they come together create a third.
originally posted by: Joecroft
Yeah, but is it really a third unique distinct part…because it only consists of the other two parts coming together…So in effect only two parts exist together as one. The third is an illusion or is conceptualised within other literature.
It’s really just a 2way unity that’s taking place. And when we think of it in terms of the Spirit and the Soul existing together as one, then there is no third element.
For example, imagine we have three distinct elements and we mix them together as One…then that would produce a true “Tri Unity” in action…i.e. 3 elements actually existing together as one.
But in the example of the ven diagram… in reality, only 2 forces or elements are existing together. There’s no “Tri Unity” taking place…but only a “BI Unity”…IMO
...
The problem for me though is that there is a lot of symbolism around the feminine (e.g. Mother, Bride, Virgin birth etc) which in my opinion is largely metaphorical for the birth of the Son in the Spirit.
...
And remember the Son within you has always been there. But when one is said to receive the Holy Spirit, The Son within us gets awakened to it’s Sonship i.e. it’s oneness with the Father. Now you could argue this has created a New Son (a third element) but too me it’s the same Son but just with a new perspective.
This Son which was always there existing anyway, becomes aware of itself spiritually. It’s termed a New birth in the Spirit, or in other words the Son has gained realization of himself/herself. It’s the same Son but with a new realization of itself, hence the term New Birth.
The Holy Spirit is said to have given birth to this new Son or realization. This is why the Holy Spirit has been feminised in other literal writings and accounts, because she symbolically gives birth to the Son; but it’s all symbolism and metaphor IMO…
TextSo my question to Christians is this… What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?
originally posted by: Joecroft
So my question to Christians is this…
What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?
And if you don't know what the mystery is…i.e. God hasn’t revealed it to you yet…
Then why do you believe/accept it, when you don’t know the mystery behind it…?
I look forward to hearing people’s responses…
Originally posted by Raggedyman
Was Jesus talking to you directly, to me directly?
Was Jesus addressing the apostles directly?
Originally posted by Raggedyman
The apostles could heal, can you?
Originally posted by Raggedyman
There are many differences and nuances in language between English and Greek, do you claim to know them all?
Originally posted by Raggedyman
The Trinity is a revealed truth, simple
Originally posted by Abednego
I would say youre to focused on the exoteric...your thinking imo is on target...but define the Hebrew letters, of the name of God in order...and you may come close to understanding the "in the beginnining" verses of Genesis. Think..fire, out of water, air/earth, water
Originally posted by whereislogic
Who is the "you" in that verse addressing? Is it just "any man"? And what else does the account mention about what type of truth it's talking about?
Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.
Originally posted by Abednego
In the case of God He is One and two and three at the same time. He is the unity.
That is why Jesus said that whoever has seen him has seen the father. ( In my case is the same, whoever has seen me has seen my father because I am a manifestation of him).
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