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What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

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posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:28 AM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Isurrender73

Messiah is not God in Judaism


I didn't say the Jews believed what I said. I said clearly this concept wasn't made clear until the NT which the Jews do not believe.

Jesusn is Lord/YHWH and Messiah/Redemer. Both the OT and NT agree. I already know you pick and chose what to believe. I believe the bible in it's entirety. Therefore, I point out when the OT and NT agree. Especially when someone who is in error is telling me I am in error.



Of course you know Jesus was a jew...





posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 04:56 AM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: whereislogic

But if Jesus is not YHWH/Jehovah then this verse in acts is blasphemy. YWHW/Jehovah was the only one the Jews accepted as Lord, and this verse is being spoken directly to the Jews.

Acts 2:36
Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."

And yet, the 2 verses before that has Peter quoting the Lord and King David (who Jews loyal to Jehovah accepted as Lord and King over Israel since he was appointed by Jehovah and anointed to be the successor to Saul) at Psalm 110:1 where the Lord David prophetically refers to Jesus as "my Lord" and making a clear distinction between "Jehovah" and "my Lord" (Jesus) as 2 different individuals. Acts 2:34,35

34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

Why doesn't it say "that God made himself both Lord and Christ" as you believe* (it's clearly talking about God having made someone else both Lord and Christ)? *: or that's what it logically leads to if you go with 'Jehovah=Jesus=God', since you're arguing that if Jesus = not Jehovah then that verse is blasphemy. Since you're arguing against 'Jesus = not Jehovah' that leaves only one alternative that you more or less spelled out when talking about their names (see further below): Jesus = Jehovah. Which is odd cause most Trinitarians are quick to argue that Jesus is not "the Father". But other Trinitarians are willing to acknowledge that the name "Jehovah" only applies to "the Father". So what's up with making the contradictions this obvious? Anyway, that was just a side thought, I'm sure you might feel that what (other) Trinitarians argue and acknowledge is irrelevant (don't remember if you're a Binitarian or Trinitarian, so far your comments seem to focus on Binitarianism, just equating Jesus with Jehovah, anyway, the way of thinking and interpreting things from the bible is pretty much the same regarding just the Lord Jesus Christ and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, God Almighty).

Psalm 110:1

Of David. A melody.

1 Jehovah declared to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”


Was David blaspheming for prohetically referring to someone other than Jehovah, namely Jesus, as "my Lord" (since he says "Jehovah said to my Lord", Jehovah is excluded from possibly being "my Lord" in that sentence; if one is willing to follow normal modes of logic and rational speech, or simply common sense)? The Lord David accepted someone other than Jehovah as "my Lord" (or described this other individual as such, showing that).

You even acknowledge that only Jehovah and Jesus are depicted as first and last which again would be blasphemy if Jesus is not YWHW/Jehovah.

That argument seems to ignore why Jesus is called the first and the last as explained with the context in the comment you were responding to. And how that's different than the other example given when the phrase is applied to Jehovah. It also seems to ignore this part of the comment before:

At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)

The blasphemy charge makes no sense to me at all.

Jehovah is a name for Jesus in the OT.

Uuhm...no, just no, no frikkin way.
Jesus is actually a theophoric name, which means it combines part of God's name with another word (shua) and carries a specific meaning. But Jehovah is not another name for Jesus (or the name he had prior to being given the name Jesus). There really is nothing in the Scriptures both Hebrew and Greek to suggest that is the case. It is an outright falsehood.


God the father in the OT is Elohim or sometimes Rauch Elohim where Rauch is used to show the femine/mother nature of God.

Elohim is just the Hebrew word for God. So what you're saying is that 'God the father in the OT is God', duh. You might want to use his actual personal name here to be a bit more specific rather than commenting in half English-half Hebrew when presenting a convoluted red herring, with all due respect (not sure how I can add salt to that without wavering with an honest description). "mother nature of God"? I'm not even gonna go there...Elohim is not a personal name, just saying "God" in Hebrew doesn't make it one (allthough the ignorant may fall for it, just like with Allah being the Arabic word for God, where some people end up thinking that Allah is the name of the God of Islam, that's what you get if there are always those obscuring the subject of the name and identity of one particular God, Jehovah God).

Your prophet made claims that did not come true. I have no reason to fear or follow the one you call prophet.

What prophet would you be referring to that I supposedly call prophet? Jesus?

Prophet

Jesus, the Messiah, was “The Prophet,” the long-awaited one foretold by Moses. (Joh 1:19-21, 25-27; 6:14; 7:40; De 18:18, 19; Ac 3:19-26)

Deuteronomy 18:17-19

17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

John 6:14

14 When the people saw the sign he performed, they began to say: “This really is the Prophet who was to come into the world.” 15 Then Jesus,...

John 7:40

Some in the crowd who heard these words began saying: “This really is the Prophet.”

Acts 3:19-23

19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

Jesus—A Prophet Like Moses | Study Activity
edit on 2-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 07:13 AM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73

Jesus is Lord/YHWH and Messiah/Redemer.

Are you using the slash to give the impression that "Lord" and "YHWH" is the same or are synonymous terms or mean the same thing or are adequate substitutes for eachother as some bible translators argue? That "Messiah" means "Redeemer" or that it's synonymous? Cause neither is the case, nor are any of those words good and honest substitutes for the other nor can they be used interchangeably without causing confusion. And only one of those words (the name that has not been spelled out as if He's Voldemort or something) uniquely applies to only one individual. All the other words (nouns) are applied in the bible to multiple different individuals, including Jesus.
edit on 2-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 10:45 AM
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originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: howtonhawky

Do you know the mystery of the Trinity…?

Simple question…


- JC




I know it is everywhere.

Even in tha courts.

I grew up in the trinity river...



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft


Think about it only in spiritual terms and of waking up spiritually.

You have a Spirit and a Soul…and you have a…______(fill in the blank)…(to make up a Trinity etc…)

Now we could put the word “Body” in the blank part, but the Body doesn’t wake up spiritually…the Soul does…the real you…

Also the Spirit and Soul is what is experiencing life, the body is just relaying information to the Observer/Soul.

So we have a Spirit and a Soul and what else do we have…?…where is this third element/entity…?



Why should we leave out the body? Isn't Jesus the physical manifestation of God? Wasn't it through that physical manifestation that Jesus created all things, as written in the Bible?

When Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection, he appeared before them in a body. We know that he managed to "appear" before them even though the door was locked to where they were, yet he still was able to manifest into a physical form in order to state the following...

Luke 24:36-39

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

As in 1 Corinthians 15, we will have "bodies" in the next life, even if they are different.

1 Corinthians 15:44

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We know that even our spiritual bodies will be able to consume food, even if we won't need it to survive. Jesus broke bread with his disciples after his resurrection. The angel of the Lord broke bread with Abraham in the Old Testament and appeared to him in physical form.



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 01:03 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft


Whatever the mystery of the Trinity is, it is clearly something that is not currently known or is at least not wide spread knowledge.

So it’s not as simple as Stating, for example that, “The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one etc”…That is not the mystery, because this aspect of the “Trinity” is well known to anyone who's ever read scripture.

So my question to Christians is this…

What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

And if you don't know what the mystery is…i.e. God hasn’t revealed it to you yet…


What is the mystery to you?

The mystery is indeed the fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE.

From your comments throughout this thread, I'm not sure that you truly comprehend it yourself, which is why it still continues to be labeled as a "mystery" and God hasn't given you full understanding...yet.



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: DaphneApollo




Originally posted by DaphneApollo
Thanks for the hospitality . . . I guess



Well, you did say “Don't hold back"


This is me not holding back lol



Originally posted by DaphneApollo
stumped no more ... got it.




Ok… the points raised in your link are talking about what is presumable known about the Trinity...a mystery is something that is unknown i.e. hasn't been understood or discovered yet...hence it’s a mystery…


My OP is asking people what that mystery is…Now it's fine to bring up stuff that’s already known about the Trinity, but only as long as you tie it in, with what you think is unknown…i.e. The Mystery


Anyway, there’s so many things I disagree with in that link, it would take me ages to go through each one individually.


If I was to address each an every point, it would just be me arguing against what is already (presumable) known about the Trinity. I don't want to debate every single point around the Trinity unless a poster is tying those “known things” in, with what they believe the mystery is.


But if you want to go down that route, which parts in your link do you want to address first…


For starters Elohim isn’t always in plural, from what I understand. Much depends on the verbs in and around the usage of the word and the context... and in many instances it can represent a single. When a singular verb is used around the word Elohim, it denotes a singular usage.

Additionally Elohim can be used for Angels or men (plural) but it can also be used for a person or Angel in the Singular.

But think about it logically…if part of the mystery of the Trinity is contained within the word Elohim and it’s always meant to be read as plural, then why was it not made scared Like the Name Jehovah is…And why would it be used elsewhere in the Bible to describe Angels, Judges, and men etc…

I mean just look at the end part of Isaiah 44-6….The word Elohim is just a generic term for God in that last sentence...If it was an important word containing the mystery of the three persons in the God head, then one would imagine it shouldn’t be getting used elsewhere as a generic term for God...especially considering the context of that verse…


- JC




edit on 2-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73




Originally posted by Isurrender73
Yahweh is both. There is no other person being mentioned. Many translators agree that this passage implies Yahweh is both King/Lord and Redemer.


Now lets just say that you are correct in your premise that Jesus is Yahweh and he is also the Redeemer.

Then where is the Father in the Old Testament…?


And more importantly why would Jesus/Yahweh state, that there is no other God besides him in Isaiah 44:6, which is reiterated further along in verses 8…?

Surely Jesus/Yahweh is aware of the Father God…


- JC



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:34 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft


Now lets just say that you are correct in your premise that Jesus is Yahweh and he is also the Redeemer.

Then where is the Father in the Old Testament…?


And more importantly why would Jesus/Yahweh state, that there is no other God besides him in Isaiah 44:6, which is reiterated further along in verses 8…?

Surely Jesus/Yahweh is aware of the Father God…


Here's another mystery. You yourself posted Isaiah 44:6 to make a point, but you obviously didn't fully understand it. See how that works? That's the mystery! The lack of understanding of something that's written plain as day right in front of your face. Let's take a look at that verse again.

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, AND HIS redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The Lord AND HIS redeemer are claiming one statement. That THEY together as one are one god.



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:36 PM
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a reply to: Abednego




Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is not the body, is the manifestation of the other two. And it can be anything. Whatever God choose to manifest.


Ok, you have made it clear now that the “third one” is not the Body…but that was quite a natural conclusion on my part to make, based on what you wrote below…

Here’s your post again just for reference…



Originally posted by Abednego
The third one is the manifestion of the first two coming together is not an illusion.
I'll try to explain very simply:
I am one individual, made of two other individuals. They came together and the resulting manifestion of that is me.
We are body, soul and spirit. Our body is the physical manifestation of the soul and spirit.



I mean you talked about a “third one” above, and then you went on to mention a Body, Soul and Spirit in the last sentence…so it was quite natural for me to equate this “third one” with the body…




Originally posted by Abednego
First God is not just spirit, He is all, He is spirit, soul and body or matter. Everything is contained in Him.
But He alone cannot manifest, so He did it through Jesus.


God manifested in the Burning Bush to Moses…



Originally posted by Abednego
You are contradicting yourself when you say the body is just an image, therefore there is only two. Because that image is something, even if it is just an image is a manifestation of something else. So you end up with three anyway.



Yes the image is something…but its not Spiritual…only the Spirit and Soul are…which is why the body doesn’t count as this “third one”…IMO


Anyway you’re the one contradicting yourself…because you said further up that “The “third one” is not the body”… but here above your talking like it is…by stating “you end up with three anyway…” in the context of discussing the image/body…


- JC



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:39 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Let me ask you a question. What do you think God AND Jesus meant when they both made the statements below?

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:28-29

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft


God manifested in the Burning Bush to Moses…


No, God alone didn't directly appear to Moses. Read that verse carefully again.

Exodus 3:2

2 AND THE ANGEL OF THE LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

I've got news for you. "The Angel of the Lord" is Jesus before we came to know him in the flesh in the New Testament. This is God/Jesus working together here (as you have said, but don't fully understand yet).


edit on 2-8-2018 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined



Originally posted by Deetermined
Here's another mystery. You yourself posted Isaiah 44:6 to make a point, but you obviously didn't fully understand it. See how that works? That's the mystery! The lack of understanding of something that's written plain as day right in front of your face. Let's take a look at that verse again.



You need to read the conversation between me and Isurrender73 to understand the context, which you clearly haven’t done…


Isurrender73 doesn't believe that Jehovah is the Father God…you need to go read his post here, where he points that out…


I'm only trying to determine why he sees it that way…


- JC



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

How do you see it? From your posts, you don't understand it either.



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined



Originally posted by Deetermined
No, God didn't directly appear to Moses. Read that verse carefully again.


I've got news for you. "The Angel of the Lord" is Jesus before we came to know him in the flesh in the New Testament. This is God/Jesus working together here (as you have said, but don't fully understand yet).


But if the Angel of the Lord is Jesus and Jesus is God…then saying that God manifested to Moses, would also be true!

- JC



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined


Originally posted by Deetermined
How do you see it? From your posts, you don't understand it either.


No, it's the other way around...

You don't understand my posts...

- JC


edit on 2-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Then answer my question. How do you see it? I'm calling your bluff because I don't believe you truly understand it.



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Jesus is not YHWH...

And Elohim can be singular or plural... but it can not be three equals one, or three that are one...

You'll find that most Judaic websites explain it very clearly




posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined



Originally posted by Deetermined
Why should we leave out the body? Isn't Jesus the physical manifestation of God? Wasn't it through that physical manifestation that Jesus created all things, as written in the Bible?



I’m not saying we should leave out the body, I’m saying the Body isn't part of the Trinity…I mean, where in the Bible does it state specifically that the Body is part of the Trinity…?




Originally posted by Deetermined
The mystery is indeed the fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are ONE.



That’s not the mystery…that’s well known information.




Originally posted by Deetermined
Then answer my question. How do you see it? I'm calling your bluff because I don't believe you truly understand it.


“calling my bluff”…lol

I’m the one asking the question…

Why does the one asking the question have to know the answer…?

And even if I did have an answer to it and I posted it…Ats would just spend the next 30 pages trying to dissect it lol rather than putting there own thoughts across about what they believe the mystery is etc…

Anyway, It’s up to others to post what they believe the mystery is, that’s what my OP is asking…


- JC



edit on 2-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2018 @ 03:37 PM
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originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Joecroft

Jesus is not YHWH...

And Elohim can be singular or plural... but it can not be three equals one, or three that are one...

You'll find that most Judaic websites explain it very clearly



Which is another reason why Jesus has said that the Jews always had it WRONG and lacked understanding.




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