What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Deetermined

The problem with Isaiah 9:6, is a question of correct translation and understanding how various words for “God” do not necessarily refer to God the Father/Yahweh directly, in every instance throughout the Bible.

The translation is fine (if you don't get bogged down on the addition of "the" or the odd comma between "Wonderful" and "Counsellor"), the rest of what you said there was spot on.

Isaiah 9:6 (NW)

For a child has been born to us,

A son has been given to us;

And the rulership* [Or “government; princely rule.”] will rest on his shoulder.

His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Of course, many Trinitarians won't acknowledge that the Hebrew word for "god" or "God" is applied to more individuals than just Jehovah God. Or they will pretend it's either a true God or a false god and that's the only 2 options if you see "god" or "God" in the bible (referring to the bible verses that say that there is only one God, or where Jesus says "the only true God"). They also are unlikely to point out that the broadest meaning for that word "god" is "mighty one", showing that it can apply to anyone who is mighty and helping to understand why other individuals in the bible (even humans) are referred to as "god(s)" or in Jesus's case even prophetically called "Mighty God" without it meaning that they are Almighty God, Jehovah God.

Texts in which a title that belongs to Jehovah is applied to Jesus Christ or is claimed to apply to Jesus

Alpha and Omega: ...

Savior: ...

God: At Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah? Again, the context answers, No! None of the idolatrous Gentile nations formed a god before Jehovah, because no one existed before Jehovah. Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god. (Ps. 82:1, 6; John 1:1, NW) At Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is referred to as “mighty God,” just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called “God Almighty.”—Gen. 17:1.

If a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures, it should never hastily be concluded that it must always refer to the same person. Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) We should always consider the context and any other instances in the Bible where the same expression occurs.

Source: Trinity: Reasoning From the Scriptures

26. Why can Jesus be called “Eternal Father”?

26 The title “Eternal Father” refers to the Messianic King’s power and authority to give humans the prospect of eternal life on earth. (John 11:25, 26) The legacy of our first parent, Adam, was death. Jesus, the last Adam, “became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; Romans 5:12, 18) Just as Jesus, the Eternal Father, will live forever, so obedient mankind will enjoy the benefits of his fatherhood eternally.​—Romans 6:9.

It does not mean (or say) that Jesus has existed eternally, i.e. having no beginning (used for the argument that Jesus is the eternal God who is referred to as "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" at Eph.1:3 for example). Which interpretation of "Eternal Father" would then contradict with Proverbs 8:22-30 which starts with "Jehovah produced me" [Jesus], Col.1:15, where Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation", and Rev.3:14, where Jesus is referred to as "the beginning of the creation by God". Showing that interpretation to be false/incorrect.

Source was: The Promise of a Prince of Peace: Isaiah’s Prophecy—Light for All Mankind I
A bit more:

“Mighty God” and “Eternal Father”

25. What does the name “Mighty God” tell us about the heavenly Jesus?

25 Jesus is also “Mighty God” and “Eternal Father.” This does not mean that he usurps the authority and position of Jehovah, who is “God our Father.” (2 Corinthians 1:2) “He [Jesus] . . . gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” (Philippians 2:6) He is called Mighty God, not Almighty God. Jesus never thought of himself as God Almighty, for he spoke of his Father as “the only true God,” that is, the only God who should be worshiped. (John 17:3; Revelation 4:11) In the Scriptures, the word “god” can mean “mighty one” or “strong one.” (Exodus 12:12; Psalm 8:5; 2 Corinthians 4:4) Before Jesus came to earth, he was “a god,” “existing in God’s form.” After his resurrection, he returned to an even higher position in the heavens. (John 1:1; Philippians 2:6-11) Further, the designation “god” carries an additional implication. Judges in Israel were called “gods”​—once by Jesus himself. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:35) Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed Judge, “destined to judge the living and the dead.” (2 Timothy 4:1; John 5:30) Clearly, he is well named Mighty God.

John 10:33-36 (NW)

The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against* [Or “to.”] whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me* [Or “of him.”] whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Sidethought: if Jesus really were the God who said that ("You are gods"), why does he refer to himself as "he" in the next sentence? Why can't I just accept the plain language of the bible? If he says "he", Jesus is clearly referring to someone else when I read it.

Psalm 82:6

6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,* [Or “godlike ones.”]

All of you are sons of the Most High.

The "I" in there is Jehovah. See preceding verses in an honest translation.

God: Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1

At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·himʹ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.​—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.

Just like Jesus is a representative and spokesman for Jehovah. There are some bible verses that clearly spell that out too but I think I've quoted enough for now.


At the end of the 2nd video there is something that is phrased a bit weird which may give the wrong impression (regarding "but when Jesus is in the presence of Jehovah", best to ignore that point).

a reply to: Raggedyman

Genesis is multifaceted, symbolically it identifies Adam the male with our spiritual nature (fire), thus our spiritual image was created in GODs image. Whereas the female Eve is associated with our physical nature (earth), which is why the snake (our ego brain), convinced Eve and not Adam, to bite the apple.

So how do we equate Genesis "being made in GODs image" with Christianity "the Son and the Father are one. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son. Yet all along the Father is greater"

It exactly the same. Our soul, as was Jesus soul, was made in GODs image. How empowering is that!

The Father is the cosmic universal soul
The Son is our individual souls
The holy spirit is the breath.

So to attain an awakening we first have to succeed in witnessing the light within our own soul, before we can witness the light in the Father. This is what born again really means as it can be only accomplished by killing the snake that wants us to believe that we are not made in GODs image.

So it's not as simple as accepting Jesus.
We first have to accept our true self.

a reply to: glend

Yeah that's all cool and all, for you but

I know the light in my own soul before I accepted Jesus and it wasn't very lighty
I will go the orthodox track and accept Christ as my lord and savior

I never liked my true self

originally posted by: glend


Everything GOD creates, has purpose, even the snake. If we did not entertain the ego-brain (snake), we couldn't evolve through experience. So the purpose of creation is too evolve.

I think its pretty clear when Genesis states GOD made man (man=spiritual body; Female is earthly body/ego-brain) in his image.

How do you comprehend that?

Read what you just said again. God said let US create man in OUR image. God the Father/Spirit (Spirit), God the Son (body), and what you claim as ego-brain, I call free will. God had a will and so do we. So, we're really not saying anything different from each other, except that along with the Spirit and body, we were given the knowledge of good and evil in order to exercise our free will.

It's our free will that separates us from God and we have to choose to accept God's will over our own in order to find our way back to God. We aren't forced to, but we are given a choice, it's not automatic and we will be judged by our choice. God won't allow evil to exist forever, and eventually, death (caused by evil/sin) will be done away with also. So, no, we will not be given the opportunity to "evolve" forever.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Keep on doing what works for you. I do need to walk the talk but commenting to you somehow makes things clearer in my head.

a reply to: Deetermined

Agreed. Your words are much clearer than mine.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Originally posted by Raggedyman
A minister Bruxy Cavey said this
As Christians we are sin free, one with Christ, the Holy Spirit Indwelling, inside Christ who is in God
The problem is, as pure and holy as we are because of what Jesus has done, we have a disease within us, that disease is sin.
That sin disease is with us till Christ returns.

How will Christs physical return remove our sins…???

Your sins are your own freewill choice to make; Jesus is not coming back physically to take away your freewill…so what is the solution.

Receiving the Holy Spirit, is the solution because it helps remind us of Gods truth…so that we may walk a righteous path and keep Gods commandments…


Colossians 1:25-27 talks of a mystery and then explains what that mystery is, namely Chirst in You

Colossians 1:25-27
I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Clearly this is referring to receiving the Holy Spirit mentioned in John 14:20…

You say you are waiting for Christ to return and remove your sin…but Christ returns in you, when you receive the Holy Spirit.


- JC

a reply to: Deetermined

Originally posted by Deetermined
Literate people know that the verse above is talking about the city being named after God/Jesus. That doesn't mean that the city is God.

Of course, but that was just an example to show that the word God does not always mean that its referring God the Father…

Originally posted by Deetermined
Even the Jewish Orthodox Bible translation says the same thing.

en.wikipedia.org...

Now let's look at the context of verse 6 by reading verse 7...

Isaiah 9:7

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I'm seriously doubting that Hezekiah was appointed to a kingdom of peace with no end. In the meanwhile, we all know that Jesus has been appointed to do just that in many other verses throughout the Bible.

None of the above matters…

Firstly, we know Matthew 1:22-23 is referring to the supposed prophecy regarding Jesus in Isaiah 7:14.

So it stands to reason that Isaiah 9:6 is referring to the same prophecy and therefore the same child being mentioned in Isaiah 7:14.


The problem is Isaiah 7:14 is talking about a prophecy that Ahaz will see himself…

Here’s the evidence…

Isaiah 7:10-11
10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”
12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test.”

From verses 10 to 11 we can see that the sign is meant for Ahaz…which surely has to be in his lifetime…And the verses further down clearly confirm that fact.

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

The key word there is “you”…which is referring to Ahaz. Which means the sign is for Ahaz to witness…which is again confirmed in the next few verses.

Isaiah 7:15-16
He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Where it states the land of the two Kings “you dread” will be laid waste etc…The “you dread” part…is agian referring to Ahaz…i.e. The two kings that Ahaz fears.


So the two Kings lands, that Ahaz fears, will be laid waste; meaning this will occur in Ahaz lifetime…

The verse also states that before the boy (the prophesied child) knows right from wrong (meaning while he is growing up) their land (the two Kings) will be laid waste.

Even if Ahaz died and somehow didn’t witness the prophecy…it’s still talking about an event that takes place at the time of those two kings. So either way, the prophesy was clearly meant for that time period.


- JC

a reply to: glend

Originally posted by Glend
What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

I think its the key to salvation. But not by understanding Jesus relationship to the Father. The key is understanding our relationship to the Father.

Yes, our relationship to the Father is reflected in Jesus relationship to the Father…By understanding his relationship, its helps us to understand our own.

Jesus is an example of the Father and Son relationship working together in harmony. We are also that same Father and Son relationship, we just need to realise it.

Originally posted by Glend
Genesis 1:27: God created man in his own image.

If GOD made creation with his own essence. Then all of creation is GOD. We only see ourselves as separate from the whole because our ego-brain (snake in Genesis) has led us astray.

Exactly…When Genesis talks about a time when God walked with us in the Garden…it does not mean God the Father was literally walking around with us.

It simply means a time when we recognized God within ourselves; a time when we walked with the knowledge of God inside of us.

The fall is where we turned away from that knowledge and followed our own paths and desires. It’s where we forgot our divine spiritual connection to God and allowed sin to enter into the world.


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Firstly, we know Matthew 1:22-23 is referring to the supposed prophecy regarding Jesus in Isaiah 7:14.

So it stands to reason that Isaiah 9:6 is referring to the same prophecy and therefore the same child being mentioned in Isaiah 7:14.

The problem is Isaiah 7:14 is talking about a prophecy that Ahaz will see himself…

Here’s the evidence…

Isaiah 7:10-11

10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test.”

From verses 10 to 11 we can see that the sign is meant for Ahaz…which surely has to be in his lifetime…And the verses further down clearly confirm that fact.

Once again, you have a literacy problem.

Let's look at all of those verses again in context...

10 Moreover the Lord spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

11 Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord.

13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Let me walk you through this. First, the Lord spoke to Ahaz telling him to ask for a sign, but in verse 12, Ahaz refuses and says he doesn't want to ask the Lord for a sign or tempt the Lord. In verse 13 we see AHAZ telling the House of David that the Lord will send THEM a sign with a virgin birth. This was not a sign meant for Ahaz. Verses 13 and 14 are AHAZ speaking, not the Lord speaking to Ahaz.

However, I will point out that other translations show verses 13 and 14 as Isaiah speaking to the House of David, but I'm not sure why it says that when we just saw Ahaz speaking in verse 12 and verse 13 starts with the words "AND he said". This is why I always use the KJV translation.

a reply to: Joecroft

I guess I am not being clear
As I understand our sins now and in future are forgiven. We are a new creation in Christ.
Though we are sin free we suffer the disease of sin, sin is an invader into our life in Christ, beyond our control, when Christ returns He will remove the disease of sin or our desire to sin. Paul in
Romans 7/17 explains it best

I don't have all the answers but, you are right that we have the Spirit as proof of our relationship with God, we have sin because we live in a broken world, Christ nwill restore that broken world to something like Eden before the original sin

Yes the Spirit is the solution but the Spirit doesn't remove our freewill, or the fact we live in a broken world

a reply to: Joecroft

Provided that you're really interested in who the "son" or child of a virgin is that is described in Isaiah 7 - Isaiah 9, the link below gives a complete explanation of the background and context that led up to this moment with Ahaz and why the Lord, speaking through Isaiah, reminded the House of David of the prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ...

In verses 13-17, the LORD comforts the House of David. Isaiah turns his attention to the House of David. Apparently he was in the royal court with members of the Davidic family. Most likely Prince Hezekiah would have been there. At this point in time, he was a teen-ager, about 15 years old. The warning had been given to Ahaz that he would be set aside (disqualified) from ruling. He would not be “established”, but the House of David was reassured that the Davidic dynasty would still be established.

Isaiah stated: “Therefore the Lord (Adoni) Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call his name Immanuel” (7:14). The word “you” in verse 14 is plural. In other words, he is no longer talking to Ahaz, but the whole house of David. The sign of the virgin born son, Immanuel, was directed primarily toward Hezekiah in order to encourage him to trust the Lord. A few years later, when he came to the throne, he instituted a great revival in that first year. His trust was only in the Lord.

Isaiah's proclamation to the House of David about the son who would be born of a virgin was nothing more than a reminder of the promise that God had already made to them about the Davidic Covenant.

What is the Davidic Covenant?

www.gotquestions.org...

To tie this in with a comparison you made yourself earlier...

The Hebrew word for “virgin” in verse 14 is “almah”. This word is never used in the Hebrew Scriptures of a married woman, but is used of a young woman of marriageable age (Gen. 24:43; Ex. 2:8; Ps. 68:26; Song of Sol. 1:3; 6:8; Prov. 30:18). Within the Israelite culture, one who is a virgin at the time of marriage is understood. There is another Hebrew word, “betula” that specifically means a virgin.

Interestingly, in the third century BC, seventy Jewish scholars got together in Alexandria, Egypt, and translated the Hebrew Bible into the Greek language. The translation, called the Septuagint (LXX), was for those Jewish people living in the Diaspora, or outside the Land of Israel, who spoke only Greek. When they came to the word “almah”, they translated it with the Greek word “parthenos” which is at the root of the word “parthenogenesis” that means “development of an egg without fertilization”. These translators understood the word to mean virgin in the technical sense of the word.

In the New Testament, Dr. Luke, describes the miraculous conception of the Lord Jesus in the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:27, 34-38. Matthew also records the conception by the Holy Spirit in Matthew 1:18-25. In verse 23, Matthew follows the Septuagint when he quotes Isaiah 7:14 and uses the Greek word “parthenos”.

All other references, plus more are listed in the link below:

www.biblearchaeology.org...

a reply to: whereislogic

Which interpretation of "Eternal Father" would then contradict with Proverbs 8:22-30 which starts with "Jehovah produced me"

I looked up EVERY translation in BibleGateway.com for Proverbs 8:22 and not one single one of them used the term "produced". You must be pulling this from your Jehovah Witnesses' New World Translation.

Here's something you should know...

When you tell Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jesus is uncreated, they are likely to take you directly to Proverbs 8:22-30 in their New World Translation (NWT). They believe this is undeniable proof that Jesus was the first created creature. Before looking specifically at this passage, we should familiarize ourselves with the context. This chapter begins with a personification of wisdom as a woman calling out in the streets. A personification is a figure of speech where human qualities are given to non-human things. For example, telling my wife that opportunity is knocking at her door is a personification of opportunity. It would be foolish for her to go check the door to see if someone is literally there knocking. Opportunity is not an actual person. In the case of Proverbs 8, personal qualities are attributed to the virtue of wisdom so that it sounds like a person (Prov. 8:12), but it’s not really a person.

Solomon’s primary intent of verses 22-30 is to communicate that God used wisdom when He created the world. God was wise from the beginning. David echoes this idea in the Psalms. He writes, “O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures” (Psa. 104:24). Solomon stresses the same point. He writes, “The Lord possessed me [wisdom] at the beginning of his work” and “I [wisdom] was beside Him, like a master workman…” (Prov. 8:22, 30). The question is, is this passage about more than wisdom?

www.str.org...

a reply to: Deetermined

No thing is created!!
There is only this appearance which is appearing...this ever present image of light is the light of consciousness....Christ is the light of consciousness.
Christ is the appearance.
God is all seeing.

Is 'seeing' and 'appearance' two separate things or are they one?
The assumption is that there is a separate seer of what is appearing................but when the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed!!

a reply to: whereislogic

They also are unlikely to point out that the broadest meaning for that word "god" is "mighty one", showing that it can apply to anyone who is mighty and helping to understand why other individuals in the bible (even humans) are referred to as "god(s)" or in Jesus's case even prophetically called "Mighty God" without it meaning that they are Almighty God, Jehovah God.

At Isaiah 10:21 Jehovah is referred to as “mighty God,” just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called “God Almighty.”—Gen. 17:1.

Wrong again. This has already been pointed out in this thread...

Revelation 1:7-8

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was (dead), and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 2:8

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 4:8

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was (dead), and is (alive), and is to come.

Remember, the book of Revelation is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ".

If you need 160 reasons why Jesus Christ IS the Almighty, here they are...

www.scionofzion.com...

a reply to: glend

So to attain an awakening we first have to succeed in witnessing the light within our own soul, before we can witness the light in the Father. This is what born again really means as it can be only accomplished by killing the snake that wants us to believe that we are not made in GODs image.

So it's not as simple as accepting Jesus.
We first have to accept our true self.

While I love your posts and your analogies, from a Christian standpoint I want to point out what the Bible says.

John 1:1-5

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


These particular verses point out that Jesus IS the light and life of men, so to understand the light within yourself, you'd need to understand who Jesus is first. Verses 5 and 10 tell us that many aren't capable of comprehending this.

I was going to make my own thread concerning the nature of the trinity, but I thought, nah, screw it. The trinity is only as much a "mystery" as the readers understanding of it from the Bible. Much of the misunderstanding, the confusion comes from peoples understanding of the nature of Gods omnipresence. They will say that God himself is "everywhere present" as if he is some all encompassing formless blob, yet they can't explain how that fits into the many scriptures plainly describing God the Father as having an actual form, at a specific location which is heaven, sitting on an actual throne. When the Bible describes God as being everywhere present, it is in fact referring to the Holy Spirit, the third part of his being, and not the Father himself, which I will clearly demonstrate with the scriptures below. The Holy Spirit is defined by the prophet Zechariah​​ as being like his "eyes", going to and from the whole earth. It is by his "eyes", that he created the heavens and the earth, see's all, knows all, and is everywhere present.

(Zechariah 4:1-4) "And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep, [2] And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: [3] And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. [4] So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?".........

(Zechariah 4:10) "For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth."

(Revelation 4:5) "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."......

(Revelation 5:6) "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

The "spirit of God":

(Genesis 1:1-2) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

(1 Corinthians 2:11-13) "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

So it is well established that the Holy Spirit is the power emanating from God, as his "eyes". But what about the Father? Well for one, Jesus Christ himself plainly stated that the Father does indeed have a form, or a shape. He isn't some formless all encompassing blob that many Christians claim him to be. This is corroborated by the testimony of Moses, and Ezekiel among others. Ezekiel in particular was given a vision of God on his throne and the heavenly angels guarding it. He describes his appearance as basically like an all consuming fire, in the shape, or form of a man, and plainly states that "this is the likeness of God on his throne" so that there is no misunderstanding of this vision being simply symbolic or allegory. So when God states that we are made in his image, after his likeness, he means that literally.

(Numbers 12:6-8) "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. [7] My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. [8] With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

(John 5:36-38) "¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. [37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. [38] And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."

(Ezekiel 1:26-28) "¶ And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. [27] And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. [28] As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake."

a reply to: Deetermined

Originally posted by Deetermined
Let me walk you through this. First, the Lord spoke to Ahaz telling him to ask for a sign, but in verse 12, Ahaz refuses and says he doesn't want to ask the Lord for a sign or tempt the Lord. In verse 13 we see AHAZ telling the House of David that the Lord will send THEM a sign with a virgin birth. This was not a sign meant for Ahaz. Verses 13 and 14 are AHAZ speaking, not the Lord speaking to Ahaz.

You’re clutching at straws…sound familiar…

Why would Ahaz, who doesn’t want to ask for a sign, be suddenly giving one out himself…???…that makes no sense whatsoever.

Surely it has to be Isaiah giving the Prophecy.

Originally posted by Deetermined
However, I will point out that other translations show verses 13 and 14 as Isaiah speaking to the House of David, but I'm not sure why it says that when we just saw Ahaz speaking in verse 12 and verse 13 starts with the words "AND he said". This is why I always use the KJV translation.

Exactly.

I think the other translations have it correct and that it’s Isaiah speaking in those verses 13 and 14.

It makes perfect sense that it’s Isaiah speaking because he’s the prophet. This is the Book of Isaiah. Prophets declare Gods prophecies…therefore Isaiah is prophesying from the Lord in verses 13 to 16.

But anyway, nothing that you’ve pointed out in your last replies refutes my previous post.

Now remember Ahaz was the one being asked, to ask, for a sign from the Lord. So it makes perfect sense that the sign spoken by Isaiah is meant for Ahaz.

But the key thing that puts it in that exact time period… is verse 16, when it talks about the two Kings lands being laid waste…“that you dread”.

Now clearly the “you dread” part is talking about Ahaz, and you could also probably infer that it’s taking about the whole of the House of David, because they are under threat from those Two Kings as well.

But either way, its clearly talking about the threat from those two Kings. And those Two kings exist in that time period. And the prophecy itself regarding the child, will take place when those two Kings lands are laid waste. The setting couldn’t get any clearer.

Think about it. Why would you have a prophecy intended for some 700 hundred years down the line, which Ahaz would never witness. Ahaz would never witness the sign. And why would the prophecy be for some 700 hundred years in the future, when those two Kings who would be long gone by then.

I mean just look at the context of Isaiah 7 verses 5 and 6. There’s clearly a plot to invade the Kingdom of Judah being rumoured/threatened. That’s what the prophecy is in relation to.


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

You'll find a complete answer and explanation in my follow-up post to you on that.

a reply to: Deetermined

The light in Judaism is also called prana in Hinduism. In Judiasm Kabbalah, its written that we can only receive the light from anti-egoistic desires. If we instead use that light to experience egotistical joys (apple), then we will remain dark inside (that is really what Genesis means by free will).

That light is from the Creator "8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. "

In Judaism Kabbalah there are five gates which is identical to Buddhist five chakras. (Hinduism sometimes teaches 8). When one has opened all five gates their vessel is full of light. Jesus attained that level by walking the desert (figuratively) to rid himself of all egotistical desires.

When Jesus attained that level he was united with the Creator. That does not infer he was the Creator. But from his point of existence, he was in total unification, fully submissive to the will of the Creator. Its important to note that one cannot attain Christ by wanting to be special (that is egoism). It can only be achieved by those that want to serve humanity. To die so they may live.

So Jesus being full of light was the beacon in the darkness.