It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

page: 13
7
<< 10  11  12    14  15  16 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 03:42 AM
link   

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow


Read back line 28, it said, "Son also himself be subject unto him." How is this line suppose to be logical if the son is equal to the father?


I don't have the patience to explain this in detail, so I'll let Bible Study Tools do it for me...


...

28. Son . . . himself . . . subject--not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. ...

I know contradictions don't bother Trinitarians, but...

1 Timothy 6:20,21

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.” 21 By making a show of such knowledge, some have deviated from the faith.

May the undeserved kindness be with you.


It should be really easy to spot, of course you can't be both subordinate to, and co-equal with, someone. That's a blatant contradiction, so why do Trinitarians who refer to this type of bible commentary not notice it or have no issues with referring to contradictions to supposedly explain the bible (and on this occasion, why it supposedly doesn't contradict their equality doctrine in the Trinity doctrine)?

Deetermined says he doesn't "have the patience to explain this in detail, so" he will "let Bible Study Tools do it for" him. Followed by posting a lot of convoluted irrelevant talk about the other verses, and then having this verse 28 supposedly 'explained' by merely a repetition of the contradiction with the equality part of the Trinity doctrine that was already observed and pointed out by Easternshadow. How does that explain the contradiction at all? A repetition of foolishness or nonsense is not an explanation in detail. The contradiction is still there. Neither does anything that followed after that contradiction make that contradiction (nonsense, see synonyms on thesaurus.com for paradox) go away. So that's the main reason I didn't quote that again, not to give the impression that there wasn't more offered as an explanation than just the contradictory nonsense and foolishness that I highlighted (that's not why I said "merely").

Bringing us back to Proverbs 26:11:

Like a dog that returns to its vomit,

The stupid one repeats his foolishness.


Well, let's quote what follows again, since it shows to me that it doesn't explain the contradictory nonsense at all, perhaps it will do the same for others, this is what Deetermined quoted about verse 28:

28. Son . . . himself . . . subject--not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. In the mediatorial kingdom, the Son had been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. Now, His kingdom shall merge in the Father's, with whom He is one; not that there is thus any derogation from His honor; for the Father Himself wills "that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father" ( John 5:22 John 5:23 , Hebrews 1:6 ).

Is that an explanation for how Jesus can be both subordinate to, and co-equal with, Jehovah, his Father and his God? How does that 'explain away' or justify the use of contradictionary talk like that? It doesn't explain anything to me. It just demonstrates that some people wil quickly talk past the contradictions they teach with convoluted red herrings (as in convoluted in the way they are phrased).
edit on 6-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 03:54 AM
link   
a reply to: whereislogic

I may be a lot of things but by the Grace of God I am not Charles Taze Russell the criminal

www.omegatimes.com...

But you won't hold that man to any standard, he is an idol I have no doubt?

Think buddy, just think it through
Your church has lied since day dot, watchtower has lied, false prophecies, stupid dates of Christ's return, armageddons just and endless stream of stupidity and you quote those verses at me personally
I havnt attacked you, questioned your honesty but never attacked you
Your church is fair game

Attack my church, I am aware of its failings, aware my own, I will point out its failings, it's broken, weak, stupid
You have come after me, fine
Me, I am going after your church, your pope, your theology based on a handful of men in JW.org, your papacy

Charles Taze Russell created your faith and he was a convicted liar









edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 04:14 AM
link   
a reply to: Raggedyman
Thanks for the demonstratrion of the relevant verses in Proverbs 26, but I don't think most people here will notice it or understand how it applies and what lessons to take away from it.



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 04:21 AM
link   
a reply to: whereislogic

Charles Taxe Russell created your faith, a liar, yet you don't hold him accountable, hmm

You believe a liar, a charlatan yet your church condemns me for a faith in the Trinity, cool

I know you won't read this because watchtower .org states you can't but you should
www.omegatimes.com...

It's good
It teaches that Russle was a charlatan
www.omegatimes.com...



Have you noticed on Charles Taze Russell's gravestone there is a CROSS
That's so funny

edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 06:18 AM
link   
a reply to: whereislogic


Well, let's quote what follows again, since it shows to me that it doesn't explain the contradictory nonsense at all, perhaps it will do the same for others, this is what Deetermined quoted about verse 28:


28. Son . . . himself . . . subject--not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. In the mediatorial kingdom, the Son had been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. Now, His kingdom shall merge in the Father's, with whom He is one; not that there is thus any derogation from His honor; for the Father Himself wills "that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father" ( John 5:22 John 5:23 , Hebrews 1:6 ).


Is that an explanation for how Jesus can be both subordinate to, and co-equal with, Jehovah, his Father and his God? How does that 'explain away' or justify the use of contradictionary talk like that? It doesn't explain anything to me. It just demonstrates that some people wil quickly talk past the contradictions they teach with convoluted red herrings (as in convoluted in the way they are phrased).


Whereislogic, you never understand ANY explanation. This is why I generally don't read your posts and ignore them while you call everyone else "stupid" and "dog vomit". This will be my last comment to you.

Right now, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all working together, yet separately. If you leave out one, the whole system falls apart because you know that if you eliminate the Son, you've just eliminated the entire plan of salvation. When Jesus puts all of God's enemies under his feet, and death and hell are done away with, then 1 Corinthians 15:28 tells us that "God may be all in all". This is where God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit will all return to their original state as one god, and their names will be converted back to one name. This is why the Bible tells us that Jesus will be given a new name and also why Jesus tells us that His name, as well as God's name, will be written on our foreheads. Their name will become one.

Regardless of whether or not you consider Jesus equal with God the Father now, He has been and will be again, and most Christians already understand that He's only working separately and sitting at the right hand of the Father until his work is done and he can return to His original state, which was in the beginning with God the Father. This is the simplest way to put it.

While I know that you will never understand how Jesus has had many names and has always been the physical manifestation of the Father throughout the Bible, it's not my job to help or make you understand. Only the Holy Spirit is capable of providing that understanding to you.

In the meanwhile, all power in heaven and earth has been given to the Son. Jesus said that the Father doesn't judge any man, but that all judgement has been given to the Son. So, regardless of whether you believe Jesus is equal to or below God the Father, NO ONE gets to the Father except through the Son. To claim to know or believe in God the Father without knowing the Son is fruitless. This is why the New Testament tells us that many will face judgement claiming to know Jesus (and having cast out demons in His name), but Jesus will tell them that He never knew them and will reject them. If you don't know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you don't know God either. You have to know one to know and understand the other.

The end.


edit on 6-8-2018 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 11:37 AM
link   

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: whereislogic

This is why I generally don't read your posts and ignore them while you call everyone else "stupid" and "dog vomit".

I didn't call everyone else "dog vomit". To read that into me bringing up Proverbs 26:11, which doesn't do that either, and paint it on me is a falsehood/lie. I find it very hard to believe that anyone being honest can read that into my commentary or Proverbs 26:11 which says something completely different and the comparison is with dogs (returning to their own vomit). That would mean it's deliberate, which would show it's slander.

Please don't put the blame on me for pointing out the value of bible teachings about slander in the latter parts of Proverbs 26 for example (or the repetition of foolishness in verse 11 and how I'm reminded of it when I see the repetition of nonsense, contradictions). It's much better to learn something from it and avoid resorting to it (although demonstrations can be beneficial to others). Or playing along with the set-up (Pr. 26:27) set up by Raggedyman with his slander to get me to bring up Proverbs 26 so you can put this all on me or make this all about me painting such negative things on me as that I'm supposedly calling everyone else "dog vomit". Did it really need that exaggeration as well ("everyone else")?

I was actually thinking about what was written in the Bible Study Tools you quoted when being reminded of Pr.26:11 again (after just having quoted it in response to Raggedyman who was repeating his nonsense and foolish behaviour about me not answering him, or not being "prepared to answer them", or insinuating "Are you afraid to answer the questions"? More picture painting with total disregard for my actual commentary and the simple straightforward answer in it, the reality of the matter and swapping it out with a discrediting version; hmmm, where have I seen that before? What's the opposite of reading something into what someone else is saying? Reading something out of what someone else is saying? Or simply ignoring it to continue the picture one wants to paint of the situation or hold onto in one's mind in spite of the reality of the matter?).

I'm just trying to be honest with both you and Raggedyman about what the bible says about human behaviour and when I'm seeing something that appears to me to demonstrate its accuracy. Yet both you and Raggedyman seem very keen on either finding something in my commentary to twist into a negative picture of it* or act offended for me being honest about it. Something it seems neither you or Raggedyman is very concerned about when doing that (being honest). It seems both of you are more concerned with making your words sound gracious and respectful, while to me, because of seeing you read negative things* into what I'm saying and in your case even twist what Proverbs 26:11 is talking about, it looks like you're hiding your hatred and disrespect (you've almost spelled out your disdain in the quotation above, although I guess if someone really wants to one can argue that that wasn't an expression of disdain). Again I'm reminded of the way Proverbs 26 describes certain human behaviour.

23 Like a silver glazing over a piece of earthenware

Are affectionate words from* [Lit., “fervent lips with.”] an evil heart.

24 The one who hates others disguises it with his lips,

But inside he harbors deceit.

25 Although he speaks graciously, do not trust him,


*: Luke 6:7

The scribes and the Pharisees were now watching Jesus closely to see whether he would cure on the Sabbath, in order to find some way to accuse him.
edit on 6-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 12:38 PM
link   
a reply to: whereislogic

I think watchtower org is a disgusting poisonous cult
I should do a thread on JW.org, it would be interesting

I know you wouldn't participate, you are not allowed to read contrary views

I recently read that JW.org doesn't turn child sex offenders in their organisation over to the authorities?
They let their god punish them, is that true?

That's a question, I am not sure if it's true or not
I really hope not, I hope it's a lie made up by the goats

I doubt you will answer me...

So the Trinity?
God is love, how can God be love if God is just one entity, what did He love before creation
How does JW.org explain that?

"Hates others but disguises it with his lips", so tell me, do you believe the practice of shunning, condemn me buddy, condemn yourself. Your church hates those who leave it and calls them the most vile things

Me, I can totally understand why some leave Christianity, it's a hard tough road, don't hate them for that
edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 06:59 PM
link   
a reply to: Raggedyman


Originally posted by Raggedyman
I disagree, we are living on earth

Yes we have the Spirit, what we don't have is Gods justice and righteousness fulfilled
We pray in the Lords Prayer "Gods kingdom come ,Gods will be done" indicating Gods will is not being done and Gods kingdom is on its way

Are we one with God via Jesus, yes but it's not fully realised



Granted justice takes place at the end of ones life but living righteously is meant to happen now. Receiving the Holy Spirit teaches us to love God, ourselves and others. That’s how we walk in righteousness and its not some distant future event.

You said we are living on Earth and then you quote part of the Lords prayer…but the rest of that verse states "thy will be done…On Earth as it is in Heaven

Meaning, we are meant to experience these things here and now on the Earth.


The verses I pointed in my last reply to you, clearly show that we can become one with God when we receive the Holy Spirit. And we both know that the Holy Spirit is meant to be received in our own lives, just like Jesus promised

The other verse I highlighted John 17:21, shows that the oneness Jesus prayed for the disciples to receive, is clearly connected with the same oneness describe in John14:20 in relation to receiving the Holy Spirit.

So you can disagree with me all you want…but’s its written right there as clear as day in the scriptures…

Peace…

- JC



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 07:12 PM
link   
a reply to: Deetermined

Over the last 2 replies now, you’ve bypassed my questions and the verses we were specifically discussing. This isn’t conducive for a good or fair discussion. But regardless I will address one of the verses you posted.



Originally posted by Deetermined
Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace.


The problem with Isaiah 9:6, is a question of correct translation and understanding how various words for “God” do not necessarily refer to God the Father/Yahweh directly, in every instance throughout the Bible. This can be clearly seen by comparing similar verses in the OT.

One example being Jeremiah 33:16 below…


Jeremiah 33:16
In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: Yahweh our righteousness. (Jeremiah 33:16).

Clearly the she (Jerusalem) in that verse is not the literal Yahweh God…

If we back up a little to Isaiah 7:14…



Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

…The word “Immanuel” meaning “God with us” makes more logical sense to mean God was with Israel and it’s people in a non literal sense…i.e. to help guide his peoples plans; rather than meaning God was literally there with them in the flesh.

People often use phrases like God was with us in battle, or my Father was with me that day…but they don’t mean they were literally there with them in the flesh…it’s just a figure of speech…

As for the rest of the verse, we know that the word “virgin” is a translation bias into the text, as “young woman” is more accurate. But more importantly, we know from the context of the verses, that it’s referring to a sign for King Ahaz to witness in his lifetime.

Isaiah 7:15-16 tells us about what will happen to the two kings attacking Jerusalem, while the child is alive and is in the process of growing up.



Isaiah 7:15-16
He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the child knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

The child in question was clearly prophesied to be born in that time period, and therefore can’t possibly be referring to Jesus. And surely God can’t have not known right from wrong; that wouldn’t make any sense, even by Jesus standards…

- JC
edit on 6-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 07:32 PM
link   
a reply to: Deetermined

Additionally, check out the Hebrew Septuagint Translation below of Isaiah 9:6



Isiaha 9:6
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.


This Hebrew translation is based more on trying to understand the words rather than going for a direct word for word translation…And as you can see there’s no mention of an “Everlasting Father” or a “Mighty God…”


And incidentally the word EL for (Mighty) God in Isaiah 9:6 can equally be translated as Angel a mighty man/messenger, which gives more credence to the Septuagint Translation.

The usage of the word El is not always referring to God the Father based on other verse comparisons. Like this one below…




Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? (El) who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?


As you can see, this verse is stating the LORD is not like the other Gods (El) so the usage of EL in that passage can’t possibly mean the LORD God…I'm' just using this as an example to show my point.


- JC



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 08:01 PM
link   
a reply to: Joecroft

I think you're grasping at straws now too.

Here's what the Hebrew/English Bible says:

Isaiah 9:5

ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם. 5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;


The meaning of Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom is variously interpreted as "Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace" (Hertz 1968), or "Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace" (Douay-Rheims).


Even the Jewish Orthodox Bible translation says the same thing.

en.wikipedia.org...

Now let's look at the context of verse 6 by reading verse 7...

Isaiah 9:7

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

I'm seriously doubting that Hezekiah was appointed to a kingdom of peace with no end. In the meanwhile, we all know that Jesus has been appointed to do just that in many other verses throughout the Bible.



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 08:20 PM
link   
a reply to: Joecroft


One example being Jeremiah 33:16 below…

Jeremiah 33:16

In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: Yahweh our righteousness. (Jeremiah 33:16).

Clearly the she (Jerusalem) in that verse is not the literal Yahweh God…


Literate people know that the verse above is talking about the city being named after God/Jesus. That doesn't mean that the city is God.



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 08:32 PM
link   
What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

I think its the key to salvation. But not by understanding Jesus relationship to the Father. The key is understanding our relationship to the Father.

Genesis 1:27: God created man in his own image.

If GOD made creation with his own essence. Then all of creation is GOD. We only see ourselves as separate from the whole because our ego-brain (snake in Genesis) has led us astray.



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 08:49 PM
link   
a reply to: glend


If GOD made creation with his own essence. Then all of creation is GOD. We only see ourselves as separate from the whole because our ego-brain (snake in Genesis) has led us astray.


We ARE separated by the free will that was given to us to choose whether to do God's will or our own, otherwise, we would already be living out God's will in eternity and we wouldn't be here. So, it's not a matter of "seeing ourselves separate". We are separate. That's why a reconciliation plan was put into place for people to choose to participate in...or not.



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 08:52 PM
link   
a reply to: Joecroft

A minister Bruxy Cavey said this
As Christians we are sin free, one with Christ, the Holy Spirit Indwelling, inside Christ who is in God
The problem is, as pure and holy as we are because of what Jesus has done, we have a disease within us, that disease is sin.
That sin disease is with us till Christ returns

So yes we are one with God, just not fully realised

Gods will is being done in heaven, His will is not being done on earth, hence why Christ will return



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 08:56 PM
link   
a reply to: glend

The key to salvation is not the Trinity, the key is Jesus Himself
People seem to be chasing some mysterious esoteric meaning, a great deep truth

It's simply accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and then learning to love as He loved
Jesus is the truth

The Trinity is beyond human capacity to understand



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 09:31 PM
link   

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: glend


If GOD made creation with his own essence. Then all of creation is GOD. We only see ourselves as separate from the whole because our ego-brain (snake in Genesis) has led us astray.


We ARE separated by the free will that was given to us to choose whether to do God's will or our own, otherwise, we would already be living out God's will in eternity and we wouldn't be here. So, it's not a matter of "seeing ourselves separate". We are separate. That's why a reconciliation plan was put into place for people to choose to participate in...or not.


Everything GOD creates, has purpose, even the snake. If we did not entertain the ego-brain (snake), we couldn't evolve through experience. So the purpose of creation is too evolve.

I think its pretty clear when Genesis states GOD made man (man=spiritual body; Female is earthly body/ego-brain) in his image.

How do you comprehend that?



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 10:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Raggedyman



The Trinity is beyond human capacity to understand


I agree that we cannot comprehend GOD, thus the trinity. But its possible to seek greater understanding of our spirituality by examining other texts (Kabbalah etc) that help us interpret Genesis. And I'm pretty sure that the Jews know a lot more about their book than the Christians who have invented such foreign concepts like original sin from their misunderstanding of Genesis.



the key is Jesus Himself


If that's the case then it would be imperative to understand what Jesus was telling his apostles. To try live by his words. Not that of anyone that conflicts with those words (be it the christian establishment or Paul/Saul himself).



Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
(Mt. 5:17-18).


That's why I think its important to understand why in Genesis it states, GOD created man in his image. Is it 2/3 of the trinity.



posted on Aug, 7 2018 @ 12:16 AM
link   
a reply to: glend

We can evolve spiritually if we choose, but there are two paths to go down, just ask Led Zeppelin
God didn't create " the snake" the snake was a corrupted free will being, by choice.

Male and female are the same, God identified as a Father to Christians not Jews, don't bring in a false He God theology, God identifies in the female at times.

As for Jews knowing more about "their book" well there are Messianic Jews, converted Jews to Jesus
And let's be hounest, plenty of Jews know nothing about their faith

Was Genesis talking physical or spiritual image? Do we take everything in the bible literal, does God need to walk?

Anyway, it's speculative, a million roads to Christ but only one Christ
We are all different



posted on Aug, 7 2018 @ 12:23 AM
link   
This is the double slit experiment
It's a fact but nobody knows how or why

It's science or is it supernatural
What is matter

m.youtube.com...

There is no answer, it just happens

The Trinity?



new topics

top topics



 
7
<< 10  11  12    14  15  16 >>

log in

join