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What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

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posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 03:41 PM
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a reply to: glend


That light is from the Creator "8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. "


John 1:8 isn't speaking about Jesus, it's speaking about John (verse 6) being the witness to the Light. The Creator and the Light was Jesus as shown in verses John 1:1-10 that I posted earlier.


edit on 8-8-2018 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 07:01 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Sorry missed that. The light comes from the Creator. When Jesus spirit was totally immersed in the Creators spirit, he could have told his disciples, that the light comes from him.

Spiritually, if Creator = X and Jesus is unified with Creator then you can say Jesus = X. Thus light comes from Jesus. Not his body but from his unified spirit.

But I personally find that definition worrisome because many people fail to realise that Jesus is identifying himself with the Creator at a spiritual level. Jesus the man, was not the Creator. The Creator is the creation but the Creator also stands aloof from the creation.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 07:25 PM
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a reply to: glend


But I personally find that definition worrisome because many people fail to realise that Jesus is identifying himself with the Creator at a spiritual level. Jesus the man, was not the Creator. The Creator is the creation but the Creator also stands aloof from the creation.


That's part of why we're having this discussion. Understanding how Jesus existed before he came as a man, but was also the one who created the world, came into that world, yet the world didn't recognize Him.

John 1:10

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 07:51 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman



Originally posted by Raggedyman
I guess I am not being clear
As I understand our sins now and in future are forgiven. We are a new creation in Christ.


Why would your future sins be already forgiven, when Jesus teaches us to repent for our sins…?

And you only become a new creation after you have become “born again”




Originally posted by Raggedyman
Though we are sin free we suffer the disease of sin, sin is an invader into our life in Christ, beyond our control, when Christ returns He will remove the disease of sin or our desire to sin. Paul in Romans 7/17 explains it best


How can you be sin free and yet still be suffering the “disease of sin”…?

Didn’t Jesus say to the adulteress woman “…go and sin no more”…and didn’t Jesus say “all those who love me keep Gods commandments…”

Seems to me like Jesus is saying you can break free from your sin and keep Gods commandments and not sin anymore.

Personally I think Paul is completely false, he teaches that Jesus is the end of the Law. But Jesus says “think not that I have come to destroy, but to fulfil the Law.”



Matthew 5:19
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven


Jesus says whoever sets aside the commandments and teaches others to do the same will become least in the kingdom etc…Paul teaches that you can’t keep the Law…Jesus says you can!

The verse above also says “whoever practices”, which means the person has to actually follow them him or herself. Jesus doesn’t do it for you…you have to apply it yourself.

God teaches us and shows us “the way”, but we still have to follow “the way” ourselves…



Originally posted by Raggedyman
I don't have all the answers but, you are right that we have the Spirit as proof of our relationship with God, we have sin because we live in a broken world, Christ nwill restore that broken world to something like Eden before the original sin

Yes the Spirit is the solution but the Spirit doesn't remove our freewill, or the fact we live in a broken world


My point about freewill is that God is not going to take it away from you…and turn you into some mindless robot.

That’s why I asked you that question in my last reply to you…I’ll ask you it again.


How is Jesus going to cure your sin when he returns…?…if he takes away your freewill, you wont be human anymore, so that’s clearly not the right solution.


It's not your freewill which makes you sin…it's people spiritual disconnection from God which makes people sin…The ideal is to keep your freewill intact and know and understand why sinning is bad…


This might help you…



Psalm 119:1-4
1Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.


Those that seek God with all their heart will receive the Spirit of God (AKA The Holy Spirit), which in turn teaches them the understanding behind the commandments.


Other scriptures confirm that keeping Gods commandments is possible and how it is a sign that the truth is in us etc…




1 John 2
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.



- JC



edit on 8-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 07:53 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

The Creator created the world. So yes, Jesus as a unified spirit, created the world. Was Jesus a unified spirit with the Creator, when the world was created, no. But as a unified spirit could Jesus see the world created, perhaps yes.

Without ego, Jesus lost all self identity.

added..

Judaism Kabbalah tells us there are other planes of existence. Five worlds (realms), each with five gates that we have to conquer. Its possible Jesus came from a more advanced realm to help us. But its also possible that Jesus conquered the five gates in the life he was born from Mary. And is now conquering more advanced worlds.

Judaism Kabbalah tells us that we are all created in an enlightened state since there is no sense of time in the spiritual. That these earthly realms have been created so we can attain that state in our sensations. Much akin to an awakening.

Christianity is a path to that awakening. So its less important as to who Jesus was, as to how he achieved that awakening.
edit on 8-8-2018 by glend because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:15 PM
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a reply to: glend


Christianity is a path to that awakening. So its less important as to who Jesus was, as to how he achieved that awakening.


The truth is, you can't combine Kabbalah with Christianity and still call it Christianity. Christianity developed it's name because it focuses on Jesus Christ and the sacrifice that He made so that all of us could spend eternity with Him. Kabbalah does not. According to Christianity, knowing Jesus is the ONLY way, the truth, and the life, in order to get to the Father. Now, you may not believe this, but that is what separates Christianity from other religions.

When you try to combine religions, all you do is water down both of them and it goes against what Jesus taught. This is why Jesus said the first and greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind, but He also said that you had to know Him to know the Father. So, the truth is, Judaism and Christianity don't really share the same God, views on God, or the same plan of salvation.

You might believe that the Christian faith is wrong in this, but it doesn't change what is written. That's why it's up to us to accept it or reject it as it is.



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft


How can you be sin free and yet still be suffering the “disease of sin”…?

Didn’t Jesus say to the adulteress woman “…go and sin no more”…and didn’t Jesus say “all those who love me keep Gods commandments…”

Seems to me like Jesus is saying you can break free from your sin and keep Gods commandments and not sin anymore.


While Jesus did tells us to sin no more and to keep His commandments, we're never going to be perfect as long as we live on this side of Heaven. Once we're "born again", we strive to be as perfect as humanly possible, but God doesn't see us as sinful or imperfect person any longer.

As for your comment about those who still follow the Mosaic laws, the Bible is proof that the Jews have never been able to keep those laws perfectly either, which is why they needed a Savior in the first place. The difference is, since they HAVE NOT been "born again", they will be judged by how well they did or did not follow the law. They will not be considered "sinless" in God's eyes. Those who will be judged the harshest are those who still teach the old laws, but don't follow them themselves.

Regardless, in the end, those who don't come to the realization that they need Jesus as their Lord and Savior to make them perfect in God's eyes, will be judged the harshest at the final judgement.

While the Bible doesn't go into great detail about the "Sheep and Goat Judgement", I believe that's when Jews will be judged based on the old laws that they still try to keep. If by the end of the Millennial period, they still don't understand where Jesus fits in the whole plan of salvation, they won't make it out of the final "Great White Throne Judgement".



edit on 8-8-2018 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2018 @ 10:20 PM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: glend


Christianity is a path to that awakening. So its less important as to who Jesus was, as to how he achieved that awakening.


The truth is, you can't combine Kabbalah with Christianity and still call it Christianity. Christianity developed it's name because it focuses on Jesus Christ and the sacrifice that He made so that all of us could spend eternity with Him. Kabbalah does not. According to Christianity, knowing Jesus is the ONLY way, the truth, and the life, in order to get to the Father. Now, you may not believe this, but that is what separates Christianity from other religions.

When you try to combine religions, all you do is water down both of them and it goes against what Jesus taught. This is why Jesus said the first and greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind, but He also said that you had to know Him to know the Father. So, the truth is, Judaism and Christianity don't really share the same God, views on God, or the same plan of salvation.

You might believe that the Christian faith is wrong in this, but it doesn't change what is written. That's why it's up to us to accept it or reject it as it is.



That's fine Deetermined. We all need to use our own brain to try work out whats best for us. If your current mindset is working for you then you don't need look any further. If we love everyone and everything, I am not sure, if anything else really matters anyway. Its not like Noah or Moses needed a book on Buddhism or New Testament to talk to GOD. Its what in our heart that really matters.



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 04:09 AM
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a reply to: glend

There is no creator and there is no created.
There are not two things.

There is simply what there is.



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 05:07 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

The brain uses labels like "Creator" to assign form to the formless. So even though its wrong on so many levels its never less a means to enable discussion of idea's and concepts. And that's not a bad thing.



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 05:11 AM
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originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Itisnowagain

The brain uses labels like "Creator" to assign form to the formless. So even though its wrong on so many levels its never less a means to enable discussion of idea's and concepts. And that's not a bad thing.

Language divides the one into two and from there discussion can happen.....................but untruth is then discussed.



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 05:55 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

Its not the way I see it. Just two words that I conceptualise as being of the same essence.



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

If you read the sermon on the mount you will instantly realise you can never be sin free, Jesus has offered grace
I can't be any more clearer

As for keeping His commandments, Jesus offered two, love God, love each other
We,are not under the Mosaic covenant
edit on 9-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 11:59 AM
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a reply to: Deetermined



Originally posted by Deetermined
While Jesus did tells us to sin no more and to keep His commandments, we're never going to be perfect as long as we live on this side of Heaven. Once we're "born again", we strive to be as perfect as humanly possible, but God doesn't see us as sinful or imperfect person any longer.


But Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Receiving the Spirit of God teaches us how to live righteously and gives us the understanding behind the commandments.

With Gods' Spirit living in us, Gods will comes down onto the earth, just as it is in Heaven. Heaven (Gods authority) comes down onto the Earth, when the spirit is living in us and guiding us.




Originally posted by Deetermined
As for your comment about those who still follow the Mosaic laws, the Bible is proof that the Jews have never been able to keep those laws perfectly either, which is why they needed a Savior in the first place.


But the Laws (10 Commandments) were added too and corrupted by men anyway.

Jesus came to show and teach the understanding behind the Law, although ultimately only the Father can teach people that.

Jesus teaches that all the Laws hang on just 2 Laws. Which is to Love one another as yourself and to love God. Loving one another as yourself means to not infringe on another persons freewill. From that you begin to get the understanding behind the Ten Commandments, like do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness etc…

This is what the Old Testament refers to as “the way”… (Psalm 119:1-4)

Jesus said he was “the way” because he points back to “the way” in the Old Testament. And of course Jesus followed “the way” himself.

- JC



edit on 9-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman



Originally posted by Raggedyman
If you read the sermon on the mount you will instantly realise you can never be sin free, Jesus has offered grace I can't be any more clearer.


Which part of the sermon on the mount, tells you that you can’t be sin free…?




Originally posted by Raggedyman
As for keeping His commandments, Jesus offered two, love God, love each other
We,are not under the Mosaic covenant


Absolutely; (see my reply to Determined also) Jesus taught that all the commandments can be summed up by those 2. Which is to Love one another as yourself and to love God. These are things that Jesus says you can keep, not the 613 mosaic Laws.


Btw – this is a great discussion but it’s a bit off topic.

What is the Mystery of the Trinity according to you…?

- JC



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 12:43 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft


Jesus came to show and teach the understanding behind the Law, although ultimately only the Father can teach people that.


Uh, Jesus didn't come to teach the understanding behind the law, he came to fulfill the law by sacrificing himself, so that no one would be judged by the old laws any more. In fact, Jesus paid such little attention to the law, that he never taught his disciples how to address the laws with the Gentiles. The disciples all ended up fighting over which laws would be saved for the Jews and whether or not they were required of the Gentiles.


Jesus teaches that all the Laws hang on just 2 Laws. Which is to Love one another as yourself and to love God. Loving one another as yourself means to not infringe on another persons freewill. From that you begin to get the understanding behind the Ten Commandments, like do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness etc…

This is what the Old Testament refers to as “the way”… (Psalm 119:1-4)

Jesus said he was “the way” because he points back to “the way” in the Old Testament. And of course Jesus followed “the way” himself.


The Mosaic laws were not the 10 commandments. It's the Mosaic laws that are being discussed as "the way" in Pslams 119:1. We're saved by God's grace through Jesus, not the works of the law. That was the reason Jesus came here in the first place. Since Jesus came to earth, he's been the only way, just like he said. No man is saved by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus, that he was the Son of God who came to sacrifice himself so that we would be saved. It required a blood sacrifice and Jesus was it! That's exactly what the Bible tells us and was prophesied about even in the the Old Testament.

You claim that all of the laws hang on two of them, namely that you have to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. But I have to ask, how much do people really love Jesus if they don't even understand who He is and why He came here in the first place? Remember, without knowing Jesus, you don't know the Father.

Believe what you want, but it doesn't change what Jesus said about Himself. Please don't use scripture if you're going to misuse it.





edit on 9-8-2018 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 02:25 PM
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I believe that great mystery is that God the Son became a man and it was in scripture but hidden in plain sight not reveled until it was revealed and yet still a mystery in the sense of how incredible it seems and impossible to our understanding and yet it did happen.

John 1:14 the Word became flesh!



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 07:16 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined



Originally posted by Deetermined
Uh, Jesus didn't come to teach the understanding behind the law, he came to fulfill the law by sacrificing himself, so that no one would be judged by the old laws any more.


Jesus came to help bring us back into a relationship with God and it is his life and teachings which helps us to do that, not his death…IMO



Originally posted by Deetermined
The Mosaic laws were not the 10 commandments. It's the Mosaic laws that are being discussed as "the way" in Pslams 119:1.


Why do you think they call it “the way”, the way to what…I believe that phrase is used because its talking about the way of the tree of life mentioned in Genesis 3:24. What does it mean to believe in Jesus…? (Rhetorical question) Various verses state that those who truly believe will keep Gods commandments.

If you are keeping the commandments, then you are also keeping the way of the tree of life, which leads to eternal life. People were removed because of their evil ways, and the only way back is to keep the way.

Jesus shows that he is the way, through his life example and teachings, so that those who believe in him will also keep the way. Jesus is the example to follow and that’s how he should be believed in…IMO

But Paul and the church nullifies Jesus teachings, and turns him into a ritual blood sacrifice. People are made to believe they are saved and can have eternal life without keeping the commandments. They teach (the Church) Just believe in the Name of Jesus and you will be saved etc…

But Jesus says “that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
But this is all undone by Paul and the Church and the focus is put onto the Jesus death and his literal blood as being that which saves people.

But Jesus use of the term blood was a metaphor for Spirit. In John 6 verses 53 to 56 Jesus use of the word blood is clearly a metaphor and is not talking about people standing around literally drinking his blood or accepting him as a literal blood sacrifice.

Our spiritual connection to God was cut off in the Garden. But it’s the Holy Spirit which helps bring us back to “the way" of the tree of life.


- JC

edit on 9-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 07:42 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

www.blackhistoryinthebible.com...

This is a biblical argument against Christians and submitting to the OT laws

Like the double slit experiment that has no logic but exists, the Trinity doesn't make sense but exists
It's a mystery



posted on Aug, 9 2018 @ 08:08 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman



Originally posted by Raggedyman
Like the double slit experiment that has no logic but exists, the Trinity doesn't make sense but exists
It's a mystery


But we know the double slit experiment exists…and we can see the results of each of those experiments.

How do we know the Trinity exists…and how do we know that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit relationship has been defined and described correctly…


- JC



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