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What is the Mystery of the Trinity…?

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posted on Aug, 4 2018 @ 01:40 PM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Bless you too, Eastern.

I must say, your beliefs appear to be all over the board (considering other threads) when it comes to God. What exactly have you been studying or practicing?

Judaism, Sunni Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, Out of Body Experience, Meditation etc..

I believe in One God that He is Our Father in Heaven, Everlasting who was neither created nor born. I believe in God's sacred books and prophets/messiah. I don't believe in idols and others equal to God. I believe in God's mercy and Justice, that everything has cause and effect, that we are responsible for own action. I believe in Jesus's way but I do not worship him. I follow his example. I follow his prayer, but I do not recognize a triune god.




posted on Aug, 4 2018 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: EasternShadow

That definitely helps to explain some of your comments. May God bless your spiritual journey.



posted on Aug, 4 2018 @ 06:05 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined


Originally posted by Deetermined
"What if we have a verse that says Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No, it is not.



Then that would be inconsistent with saying Jesus is fully God.

Where does Jesus say that he knows all things...?

If Jesus was fully God the Father, then granted he may have been limited in his Body, but he should never be limited in his knowledge, at any point in time.

Jesus said he Testifies for Himself (who is himself…?) and that he testifies for the Father who sent him… he also said Trust in God, trust also in me!

There are many other similar verses, to those; including the one "I do not know the Hour, only the Father knows the hour”… I’m paraphrasing...but Clearly those types of verses show two voices speaking…

You negate the Son, when you say he is the Father...but therein lies the True mystery, which you cannot see or understand because you are just blindly following a religion.

One of the reasons Christians think that Jesus is God, is because he said “I and the Father are one"; but Jesus prays for his disciples to have this exact same oneness that he had…in John 17:21.



John 17:21
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.



Jesus is saying that this same oneness he has with the Father, can be experienced and known by the disciples as well.

Does that make the disciples Fully God the Father incarnated too…No it doesn't...and neither does it mean Jesus is Fully God the Father either…


- JC



posted on Aug, 4 2018 @ 08:11 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

You are right Joe, that's the promise, we will be like Jesus
That's the whole story, the future, we will become one with God, like Jesus, like God Himself, one with Him
That's the future promise, not sitting on clouds playing harps

Even now, Christians are called the sons of God
We are to be part of the trinity as I understand it

Not yet of course

It's kind of like Willy Wonkas chocolate factory



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 12:31 AM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow


Being the father and Holy Spirit does not make God 2 different persons as implied by trinity.


Now you're starting to confuse yourself because the "Trinity" doesn't imply that God is 2 or 3 different persons, but that they are all aspects of ONE God.

The Lie That Made God a Mystery

The Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. According to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one.”​—The New Encyclopædia Britannica.
...
THE TRUTH FROM THE BIBLE
...
WHY IT MATTERS
The Trinity, explain Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler, “could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible.” Can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand? The doctrine of the Trinity, therefore, is a barrier to knowing and loving God.

Marco, quoted in an earlier article, saw the Trinity as a barrier. “I thought God was hiding his identity from me,” he says, “and that just made him even more distant, mysterious, and unapproachable.” However, “God is not a God of confusion.” (1 Corinthians 14:33, American Standard Version) He has not hidden his identity from us. He wants us to know him. Jesus said: “We worship what we know.”​—John 4:22.

“When I learned that God is not part of a Trinity,” says Marco, “I was finally able to establish a personal relationship with him.” If we view Jehovah as a distinct Person rather than a mysterious stranger, it is far easier to love him. “He that does not love has not come to know God,” says the Bible, “because God is love.”​—1 John 4:8.

Mt 22:35-38 (NW)

And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him [Jesus] by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment.

Deuteronomy 6:5 (ASV)

and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

It doesn't say, you must spread confusion about the Trinity doctrine by giving incorrect information with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. Even if that is what you believe about the Trinity, the thread is clearly about the Trinity as taught by the majority of Christendom's churches who teach "one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. According to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one."

Galatian 3:20 (Amplified Bible, Classic Edition)

Now a go-between (intermediary) has to do with and implies more than one party [there can be no mediator with just one person]. Yet God is [only] one Person...

NW Study Edition:

Now there is no mediator when just one person is involved, but God is only one.

The bolded part let's you know that the latter part is referring to God being only one person cause it relates to the first part of the sentence, there is no mediator when just one person is involved, but God is only one; the "one" there is clearly relating to the "one person" mentioned before, it makes no sense to interpret that "one" as referring to some kind of unity rather than meaning "one person", so unlike the majority of those who teach the Trinity doctrine, the bible teaches that God is one person, not three in one. See how I left out "person" there at the end of the sentence and it's still clear that with "three in one" I'm referring to "three persons in one person" because I just mentioned "one person" in the preceding part of the sentence? Also notice how the NW leaves that up to the reader to realize.

1 Tim 2:5 (KJ)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
edit on 5-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 06:34 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Joecroft

You are right Joe, that's the promise, we will be like Jesus
That's the whole story, the future, we will become one with God, like Jesus, like God Himself, one with Him
That's the future promise, not sitting on clouds playing harps

Even now, Christians are called the sons of God
We are to be part of the trinity as I understand it

Not yet of course

It's kind of like Willy Wonkas chocolate factory


Absolutely! Jesus' disciples already understood this...

John 20:27-28

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Titus 2:13-14

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 07:35 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft


You negate the Son, when you say he is the Father...but therein lies the True mystery, which you cannot see or understand because you are just blindly following a religion.


No, I'm not negating the Son and I have done my own research thoroughly, as shown through all of the Bible verses I have posted throughout this thread.

I'm going to go a step further here and show you how Jesus is also the God of the Old Testament, so does that make Him the Father also? Maybe not, but it does show that Jesus and Yahweh were one and the same, the King of Israel.

Read all of Isaiah 45. All of the attributes that were given to "God" were also given to Jesus, including that every knee would bow and confess him as LORD.

Here's a good explanation for starters. I suggest reading the entire link.

"What is the Name of God the Father?"


The scriptures do not give us a personal name that belongs distinctly to God the Father. In fact, the only person in the Trinity who is given a distinct personal name is God the Son, whose name is Jesus. Even this name is given to Him specifically because of the incarnation. God the Son was not called Jesus until He came in the flesh as the promised Messiah. Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are given distinct, personal names.

Some have argued that the Divine Name, YHWH (Yahweh, or Jehovah), is the name of the Father. This name, however, is not exclusively the Father's name. It is the name of the Triune God as a whole. The Father is called YHWH in places like Psalm 110:1

"The LORD [YHWH] says to my Lord [Adoni]: 'Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'"

Hebrews 1:13 explains this verse as the Father (the LORD, or YHWH) speaking to the Son (the Lord, Adoni, or master). So the author of Hebrews plainly identifies the Father as YHWH. Yet, when Hebrews 1:10-12 quotes Psalm 102:25-27, it says the Psalm is talking about Jesus. The Psalm is clearly talking about YHWH. Jesus, therefore, is also YHWH. Hebrews 10:15-16 quotes Jeremiah 31:33 as being a direct quote from the Holy Spirit. It is, in fact, a direct quote from YHWH. So the Holy Spirit is also YHWH. Just looking at the book of Hebrews alone, we can see that YHWH is the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Thus, YHWH is the name of the Triune God.


carm.org...



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: Deetermined

And while Jehovas witness will deny it, maybe they don't know what they believe or maybe lie to your face
They teach Michael the archangel is Jesus

www.jw.org...

Well whereislogic said I was wrong when I asked him if Michael was Jesus, maybe he doesn't know what he believes



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

Supposedly, the Archangel theory is one that has belonged to both Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, however, I've never heard anyone from either faith express that directly in my own personal conversations with them. I think there are a lot of people who don't believe exactly as their denomination teaches, but most of what they teach.



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 04:18 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman



Originally posted by Raggedyman
You are right Joe, that's the promise, we will be like Jesus
That's the whole story, the future, we will become one with God, like Jesus, like God Himself, one with Him
That's the future promise, not sitting on clouds playing harps…



It’s not the future though, it’s talking about now…i.e. in our life times when we receive the Holy Spirit…and become born again etc...

The oneness that Jesus talked about for his disciples to receive in John 17:21 below…



John 17:21
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.


…Is the same exact oneness that Jesus talks about in John 14:20



John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.


Jesus was taking about people receiving the Holy Spirit which can be clearly seen by reading the context of chapter John 14.

The Holy Spirit is something we are all meant to receive today...not in some distant future afterlife…Although we will be aware of it even then...but that's besides the point, because it's meant to be experience/received in our own lifetimes…



Originally posted by Raggedyman
Even now, Christians are called the sons of God
We are to be part of the trinity as I understand it


Jesus wanted us to know that we are one with the Father in Spirit just like he is…And that we are all sons of God...just like Jesus.


- JC

edit on 5-8-2018 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined



Originally posted by Deetermined
Read all of Isaiah 45. All of the attributes that were given to "God" were also given to Jesus, including that every knee would bow and confess him as LORD.



There isn’t any clear verse in Isaiah 45 which shows Jesus = YHWH

I believe Paul has made an error by making Jesus equal with God because Jesus never suggests such a thing himself…it’s the same error that the Pharisees made
In John 10:33, when they accused Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be God.

But Jesus refutes there accusation by stating, “why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said I am Gods son.”; essentially denying there claim of blasphemy against him. He also quotes psalm 82 which states we are all sons of God and asks why he can’t apply such a term to himself.

Clearly the idea that Jesus is God is a misunderstanding throughout other parts of Pauls epistles. And they tried real hard to make it fit with many old testament scriptures.




Originally posted by Deetermined
"What is the Name of God the Father?"

The scriptures do not give us a personal name that belongs distinctly to God the Father. In fact, the only person in the Trinity who is given a distinct personal name is God the Son, whose name is Jesus. Even this name is given to Him specifically because of the incarnation. God the Son was not called Jesus until He came in the flesh as the promised Messiah. Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are given distinct, personal names.


I’m not sure where they are getting these ideas from…because YHWH is generally considered to be the Father by most Christians.




Originally posted by Deetermined

"The LORD [YHWH] says to my Lord [Adoni]: 'Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.'"



The word “Adonai" can refer to the actual LORD God in some instances throughout the rest of the Bible, but in can also mean master, or be a title for someone.

But in Psalm 110:1 “Adonai" can't possibly mean the actual LORD God, because it wouldn’t make sense for the LORD to say to himself, “sit at my right hand etc…"

And if Adonai is a Title for someone else, then that person is clearly not the LORD/YHWH either.

If Adonai refers to Jesus in that verse, then it clearly doesn't mean Jesus is LORD/YHWH, seeing as he's sitting at Gods right hand etc…but there’s no way to know for certain, if Adonai is actually referring to Jesus directly in that verse.

But the thing is, it could just as easily be a title for someone else who is meant to stand firm in the LORD…e.g. A leader, or a prophet etc...

Summing up…whoever “Adonai” is in Psalm 110:1; it cannot be the LORD/YHWH.
It could be Jesus but it cannot be the LORD/YHWH.


- JC



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 08:28 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

I disagree, we are living on earth

Yes we have the Spirit, what we don't have is Gods justice and righteousness fulfilled
We pray in the Lords Prayer "Gods kingdom come ,Gods will be done" indicating Gods will is not being done and Gods kingdom is on its way

Are we one with God via Jesus, yes but it's not fully realised



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 08:30 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Wow didn't know that about the sda's
Interesting
Cheers



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 10:09 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Revelation 1:6-8

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace.

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:



posted on Aug, 5 2018 @ 11:45 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Deetermined
Well whereislogic said I was wrong when I asked him if Michael was Jesus, maybe he doesn't know what he believes

You turned it into something else so you asked something else. Similar to the 'He-Man'-like cartoon intended to rididule produced by a mainstream media outlet that I shared in my response to you. Allthough I described that one as "How to ridicule the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses without ever addressing the evidence for those teachings:". That video is not so much ridicule by misrepresentation but by exaggaration or manner in which it is presented (in this case a ridiculous cartoon and a manipulative narrative). Both are termed an "Appeal to Ridicule" under the fallacies lists of websites that talk about logical fallacies, one of which describes that fallacy as "Presenting the argument in such a way that makes the argument look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or the use of exaggeration." Of course, what you can do to arguments you can also do to logical and reasonable conclusions that lead to correct/truthful beliefs and beneficial teachings. Which is what that video does, I prefer to call it propaganda than just a logical fallacy, but just to point out that the technique is a familiar technique to those studying and/or teaching about logic.

Anyway, it was a red herring (distraction) from the things I was bringing up in relation to this thread. So there was little point in trying to correct the things you said wrong and there still is little point to it. You responded to my comment but it wasn't a real response to that comment. You just wanted to bring up Michael the Archangel because it's easier to ridicule or mislead people about. But apparently that wasn't enough, you also had to misrepresent their teachings by saying stuff like:

"Jesus was possessed by Michael the archangel" (nope, Jesus was never possessed by Michael)
" that Jesus...never rose" (nope, Jesus rose from the dead because his God raised him from the dead, as the bible clearly explains; John 2:19 and Mark 14:58, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" doesn't contradict that very clear teaching, before anyone wants to go there in spite of it not having anything to do with the comment you were responding to, or any of my commentary for that matter. Details here because this scripture is said by Trinitarians to express element of their dogma, so on-topic)
"and Michael the Archangel left the body of Jesus" (nope, Michael the Archangel never left the body of Jesus; I guess this relates to the 'possession' straw man version of the supposed teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses)

So the answer to your question "Do you really believe" followed by that misrepresentation was short and simple: no. No need to get distracted any further with that topic of Michael the Archangel that some Trinitarians are so fond of to bring up when they want to ridicule Jehovah's Witnesses or push people's buttons so that it is triggered in their minds. Especially in the minds of Trinitarians.
edit on 6-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 12:37 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Actually I asked a question that I thought deserved an answer, you fobbed me

JW.org teaches Michael the archangel was/is or something about Jesus and I thought you would explain
If the word "possesses" you could have explained it, you chose not to
I wonder why?

www.jw.org...

wol.jw.org...

m.youtube.com...


Did Jesus arise as a man or a spirit

Are you afraid to answer the questions

Are you allowed to watch YouTube links I put up? Will you?

Another thing I was told, you posting/visiting this site is forbidden by watchtower.org, is that true?

edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 01:14 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman
I gave you an answer which it seems you were already aware of that you were misrepresenting the subject for the purpose of ridicule. Or otherwise you could have found it just like you linked the subject now and there would have been no need for misrepresentation and rephrasing things according to your purpose for bringing up the subject.

You've made it very clear to me in the past (and are still doing so) that you are not interested in any explanations or answers that either do not tickle your ears or you cannot easily ridicule or cast doubt on, cherry-picking subjects for that purpose. Not having a real conversation, not responding to my questions if I ask them (or respond with a distraction, deflection, dodge, or something completely unreasonable). Not responding to what I bring up. The video I shared earlier entitled "Is jcdied4all sincere and really looking for an answer in her videos Question for JW" is quite appropiate in this situation. As is the question, why explain things to those who don't wanna hear it and use it for other purposes whatever one might explain? If you really want to know about Michael the Archangel and what Jehovah's Witnesses teach about that subject you've already linked it. You apparently don't need my help.

1 Thess. 4:16 is already sufficient evidence for me, given everything else I know about those who ridicule this subject as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses and obscure the subject of both Jehovah God's identity and the Lord Jesus Christ's identity.

You also said:

Do you really believe JW.org is as valid as Gods word.

Again, more nonsense and twisted speech, since JW.org contains God's word in multiple different translations, including the ASV and KJV. And all their articles are supported with bible references. Their teachings would be without value to me if they weren't and can therefore also never be more valid than God's word if they contradict it. All a distraction from discussing the contradictions that the Trinity doctrine has with God's word and psychological projection concerning the topic of following after men rather than God. God's word is and will remain to be my primary source of information and truth, if someone teaches what I see that it does, fine, then their teachings are just as valid as God's word itself, cause they are consistent with it, if not, like your teachings, then I classify them as the teachings of men and they are not just as valid as God's word, as you put it.
edit on 6-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 01:29 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic

The fact that JWs don't knock on my door is evidence I am not well respected by your community, oh the life of a goat
Irrespective if I see what I consider a vicious and nasty cult that, a cult that is not honest with their doctrines, hide, feign and deceive I am happy to expose it

And yes you are right, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, creflo Dollar and their ilk deserve the same treatment. Christianity has its problems, very big problems as well, I just don't pretend that I or the community I belong to has all the answers and excludes everyone else from salvation in Christ

I see JW org akin to the US papacy, an organisation controlling a large number of people

Your lack of responses to my question indicates that they are accurate and you are not prepared to answer them

If you have any questions re my faith, I am an open book. Having said that, I don't have all the answers
An honest discourse will get an honest answer

I am not silly enough to think I can show you the lies of JW.org but I am happy to show its many and deep flaws to others



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 02:00 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: whereislogic

Your lack of responses to my question indicates that they are accurate and you are not prepared to answer them

As I mentioned, I answered your rhetorical questions painting beliefs on me regarding Michael the Archangel with a simple: no. Which last time I checked, indicates that they are not accurate descriptions of my beliefs. That's what "no" means in response to "Do you really believe ...". My full answer: "No, and neither do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that." Seems hard to twist into hearing something else or getting the impression from that as described in the quotation from you above.

Proverbs 26

1 Like snow in summer and rain at harvesttime,

Honor is not fitting for someone stupid.
...
3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle is for the donkey,

And the rod is for the back of stupid people.

4 Do not answer the stupid one according to his foolishness,

So that you do not put yourself on his level.* [Or “So that you do not make yourself his equal.”]

5 Answer the stupid one according to his foolishness,

So that he does not think he is wise.
...
11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit,

The stupid one repeats his foolishness.
...
16 The lazy one thinks he is wiser

Than seven people who give a sensible reply.
...
20 Where there is no wood, the fire goes out,

And where there is no slanderer, quarreling ceases.

21 As charcoal for the embers and wood for the fire,

So a contentious man kindles a quarrel.

22 The words of a slanderer are like tasty morsels;* [Or “like things to be swallowed greedily.”]

They are gulped right down into the stomach.

23 Like a silver glazing over a piece of earthenware

Are affectionate words from* [Lit., “fervent lips with.”] an evil heart.

24 The one who hates others disguises it with his lips,

But inside he harbors deceit.

25 Although he speaks graciously, do not trust him,

For there are seven detestable things in his heart.* [Or “For his heart is completely detestable.”]

26 Though his hatred is concealed by deceit,

His evil will be exposed in the congregation.

27 The one who digs a pit will fall into it,

And whoever rolls away a stone—it will come back on him.

28 A lying tongue hates those crushed by it,

And a flattering mouth causes ruin.

edit on 6-8-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2018 @ 03:36 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Good call, it's how I got them to stop knocking on my door

Catholics believe they are the only ones with the truth, they are the only ones saved, that the papacy can change and edit scripture

Be warned, yours is no different than the papacy, just another country

I have no hate or anger, just pity
You actually believe Christianity was lost to the world till 200 years ago and Joe Smith, how he lied about knowing and understanding Greek and interpreting Greek into a belief
You know Charles Russell tried to sue someone about his understanding of Greek till the courts found out he couldn't speak Greek at all

They don't teach you that do they
Comfortable with that liar

edit on 6-8-2018 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



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