Christian Virgin Birth - Why Jews didn't buy it.

Here are some valuable words from Simon Peter to show the difference between people who stubbornly believe in the virgin birth and ignore the doctrine of the Apostles and the Messiah, while putting blind faith into the doctrine of Rome. If these so called Christians decided to study history by reason instead of having the utmost pride and blind faith that they are correct, based on church tradition, they would see that the Jewish Christian church which was formed BEFORE the Roman Catholic church has a totally separate doctrine which does not include the virgin birth. Yet the modern Christians today in their stubborn pride reject anything contrary to what Rome tells them because of blind faith. Thank God that I am a person who believes in reason more than blind faith, because it allowed me to accept Simon Peter for who he really is, rather than believing in the lies that Rome boldly told unto the world.

Do not think that we say that these things are only to be received by faith, but
also that they are to be asserted by reason. For indeed it is not safe to commit these things to bare
faith without reason, since assuredly truth cannot be without reason. And therefore he who has
received these things fortified by reason, can never lose them; whereas he who receives them
without proofs, by an assent to a simple statement of them, can neither keep them safely, nor is
certain if they are true; because he who easily believes, also easily yields. But he who has sought
reason for those things which he has believed and received, as though bound by chains of reason
itself, can never be torn away or separated from those things which he hath believed. And therefore,
according as any one is more anxious in demanding a reason, by so much will he be the firmer in
preserving his faith.

been waiting so long for dimebag darrell to reincarnate/come back from the dead... Pantera is totally historical!

a reply to: glend

A mind that accepts Moses wouldn't ask if jealousy was a quality of a perfect GOD .

Revisiting your thread sets me into confusion.

What is your intent as to citing these three verses of which you say our minds do not accept?
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Our mind doesn't accept Matthew 15:24
- Jesus answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

KJV - Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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Our mind doesn't accept Luke 19:27
- But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.

KJV - Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
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Our mind doesn't accept Matthew 10:34
- Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword

KJV - Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
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a reply to: Seede

Think I was trying to infer the following.....

if any one dares to hear anything against God, as trusting in the Scriptures, let him first of all consider with me that if any one, as he pleases, form a dogma agreeable to himself, and then carefully search the Scriptures, he will be able to produce many testimonies from them in favour of the dogma that he has formed.

Clementine Homilies
(Discourses with Apostle Peter).

Because I believe we need use higher reasoning to discover the truth. All the dogma's we want to believe are just obstructions, that only reflect our fears and desires.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:21-2

Things that we want to believe, perhaps aren't true. Whereas things that we don't want to believe, might be truth.

Take for example the prerequisite of being born again (John 3:3) to attain heaven.

What is born again?

If its similar to eastern concept of enlightenment, then we must expel from our minds without exception, all forms of materialistic attachments and worldly joys.

Somewhat akin to what Matthew 19:21 states "Jesus said to him, If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

That is akin to those Buddhist in Thailand etc who walk the streets with a bowl begging for rice. Having no other worldly possessions.

But we all want to eat our cake and eat it too. Which brings us squarely back to Matthew 7:21-2.

I suffer from no illusions that I will attain heaven. My mind and body just too weak. But that doesn't stop me from wishing better for others. That have the will to strive for the stars.

a reply to: glend

Take for example the prerequisite of being born again (John 3:3) to attain heaven. What is born again?

One must read, with understanding, the entire third chapter of John to realize that being born again is resurrection of the soul's spirit in John's understanding. That is in John's belief. The correct understanding of being born again requires continuous awareness of the perfect will of the Creator. If one does not believe and abide in the Christ of the Creator of John's understanding then that one can not enter into his Creator's kingdom. It is therefore a matter of which Creator is of anyone's belief and which Lord, one calls upon.

John is speaking of his understanding and not necessarily your or my understanding. One can believe in polytheism of many gods or godesess and call them Lords also but they do not offer the same afterlife as does John's Lord. That is what is meant by all who call Lord, Lord will not enter the kingdom of God. Meaning John's God.

Now back to John's third chapter. John insists that His God is the true God of all gods and has a kingdom of everlasting life in the afterlives of all who will believe and abide in his God. If one will accept those conditions then that one can receive an afterlife of re birth. [Born again] -- Now what happens if one will not accept rebirth into the kingdom of God? That one who rejects this afterlife of John's, will not enjoy resurrection with a new body and will not be allowed into the celestial realm of the kingdom of heaven. That one who rejects this offer will exist as a naked spirit [bodiless] in the depths of this earth till the world will end.

That is what John is saying in this third chapter when he speaks of born again. Naturally if one cannot accept the Nazarene doctrine then Johns third chapter is meaningless.

originally posted by: glend

What is born again?

If its similar to eastern concept of enlightenment, then we must expel from our minds without exception, all forms of materialistic attachments and worldly joys.

That is akin to those Buddhist in Thailand etc who walk the streets with a bowl begging for rice. Having no other worldly possessions.

And that's a lot of claptrap. Being born again is to be born of the Holy Spirit, from God above, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a supernatural event which occurs to the repentant believer who responds to the gospel and receives the Lord Jesus in faith. The Holy Spirit is the gift of God, the indwelling Spirit of Christ that leads the believer into all truth, God dwelling in the, previously, spiritually dead, in trespasses and sin, ignorant and blind unbeliever. This is the Gospel 101, Sunday school stuff, which you obviously don't have the Spirit of Christ to understand and are simply the blind leading the blind, to post such nonsense that has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ in scripture. I've seldom seen such dumb deception and ignorance of Christian doctrine. I don't know one single, authentic Christian that does not KNOW what born again means, and you may as well be babbling. The only thing akin to a Buddhist is you, and that's a personal problem, a serious personal problem.

a reply to: Seede

Thank you Seede,

"The correct understanding of being born again requires continuous awareness of the perfect will of the Creator."

I believe that to be true. But I also believe that no-one can know the Father but the Son.

So unless the Son in Christianity has symbolic meaning then Johns interpretation will result in an empty heaven because only the Son can have continuous awareness of the perfect will of the Creator.

I believe the Son in Christianity is symbolic for our soul. That's the gate that needs to be opened before we are born again. In Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism that gate can only be opened by rejecting the apple. The apple is anything we seek for egotistical joy in our physical world. So each time we literally eat ice-cream, we are turning our back on the Creator.

In Buddhism there are two oracles that can traverse into that void John talked about. And yes they have seen many Christians trapped in the void. It is my understanding that souls trapped in that void will remain there until all their earthly karma have been extinguished. So perhaps Johns words have been incorrectly translated over time.

I praise your belief in Christianity, Seede.

originally posted by: Scrutinizing

originally posted by: glend

What is born again?

If its similar to eastern concept of enlightenment, then we must expel from our minds without exception, all forms of materialistic attachments and worldly joys.

That is akin to those Buddhist in Thailand etc who walk the streets with a bowl begging for rice. Having no other worldly possessions.

And that's a lot of claptrap. Being born again is to be born of the Holy Spirit, from God above, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a supernatural event which occurs to the repentant believer who responds to the gospel and receives the Lord Jesus in faith. The Holy Spirit is the gift of God, the indwelling Spirit of Christ that leads the believer into all truth, God dwelling in the, previously, spiritually dead, in trespasses and sin, ignorant and blind unbeliever. This is the Gospel 101, Sunday school stuff, which you obviously don't have the Spirit of Christ to understand and are simply the blind leading the blind, to post such nonsense that has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ in scripture. I've seldom seen such dumb deception and ignorance of Christian doctrine. I don't know one single, authentic Christian that does not KNOW what born again means, and you may as well be babbling. The only thing akin to a Buddhist is you, and that's a personal problem, a serious personal problem.

If your mind is capable of comprehending GOD, then perhaps your GOD is smaller than mine. Because my GOD is far bigger than any human mind is capable of comprehending. So have comfort in that, if it pleases you.

btw, Buddhism isn't a religion, its more akin to a philosophy of snake killing, that doesn't have GODs. So one can be Buddhist-christian etc.

originally posted by: glend

If your mind is capable of comprehending GOD, then perhaps your GOD is smaller than mine. Because my GOD is far bigger than any human mind is capable of comprehending. So have comfort in that, if it pleases you.

btw, Buddhism isn't a religion, its more akin to a philosophy of snake killing, that doesn't have GODs. So one can be Buddhist-christian etc.

Stop the sophistry and meaninglessly playing with words, the senseless platitudes that do not get anybody closer to the truth, and maybe you could stop inventing your own God, while you're at it, for your own sake. There is no Buddhist Christian. Christianity IS Jesus Christ. You can't subscribe to a God and no God, at the same time. This is not to say all religions don't have some moral precepts. Buddha had some worldly wisdom that coincides with Christian precepts, like any religion, but only Christianity can save a person from God's wrath and condemnation to hell, Acts 4:10-12. Therefore, Christian scripture teaches Buddha cannot save you or give you eternal life, nor lead you to a God he didn't know. A dollar and Buddha will buy you a cup of coffee and a ticket to hell.

You're saying you subscribe to a Godless scripture of Buddhism, the teachings of a spiritually blind man, according to Christian scripture, and God at the same time? Do you realize atheistic philosophers can have moral code they can be right about, that sounds good, but that will not save anybody? Are still merely fools, per God, Psalms 14:1? Again, Christian doctrine is, without being born again, of the Holy Spirit, a man is blind and deaf to the things of God, no Spirit of Christ in them, is none of God's, scripture even stating unbelievers are, literally, spiritually dead, like you are, Ephesians 2:1. That Buddha says don't live for the stuff of the world may be good advice, but it won't save your eternal soul. You need faith in the blood atonement of the Lord Jesus. Jesus Christ did not come here, die on the cross (and resurrect, mind you: Buddha left a body, like all corrupt men do), did not die on the cross and shed His blood so that, what the heck, Buddha would have sufficed. Do you not get that? And I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking how senseless would that be, if you didn't need Christ's blood atonement to be saved, and therefore only Jesus Christ able to save you? How senseless Jesus Christ even coming to earth, suffering and dying so, would have been, if that were not necessary. This excludes Buddhism to save anybody, and salvation is, in fact, a gift of God we cannot earn by simply sucking up to some moral code: even the law of the Old Testament cannot save, Ephesians 2:5-8, Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:23-27. As a matter of fact, if, in fact, you only have one life, do not reincarnate, what solution does Buddha have for your sin and offenses against perfect and Holy God, which also means that He must execute justice, that He cannot wink at any sin and be a Holy God, in the first place? If Christ’s blood is required for the remission of sins, what does Buddha have to solve your sin problem? It's God's holiness that is the reason for the blood atonement and our need for God's grace, that the sin debt is somehow paid, as unusual as God's solution is to contemplate, on some levels. And this is an example of how, yes, we can't be God, know God entirely. He is bigger than us, but, again, when somebody shares with you what He taught in scripture, this is not smallness. You're simply senselessly playing with words, this concept God's teachings make Him small? That us better knowing Him is small? You really don't make a damned bit of sense, to me.

That God is bigger than us all does not mean you throw your hands up and give up on learning everything you can about God, Jesus Christ. Common sense should tell you a big God means there’s a lot to learn. God gave us a whole Bible, not a pamphlet, quite peculiar if He intended we throw our hands up, become a Buddhist, because God is too big to contemplate? Again, what is Buddha going to do about your sin guilt, before Holy God, that demands true faith in the Lord Jesus, demands our faith and worship on His terms, which is by the whole word of God of scripture, John 4:23-24, 2 Timothy 3:16. I share with you doctrine of scripture, and you're literally saying forget it, God's too big to know anything. Think about it. You're dismissing God's word, inventing your own bastardized doctrine, saying He is too big to understand, that you don't, therefore, know God, and you're commenting on the Christian faith, that commands us to know God, as well as obey Him? And what on earth, if it's not about knowing God, do you think that thick Bible's purpose is? God being verbose? Some novel? Just kidding?

As to sophistry and the meaningless, what I said about being born again and the Holy Spirit is not my view of God, it is rather what is crystal clear of scripture. What you're really saying is doctrine that God taught in scripture, as every Christian knows scripture is the word of God, are small words, then, is a small God speaking. What a pernicious liar that makes you! Or maybe silly one, actually, to think that will play with any Christian, anyway. In other words, what you're saying is Jesus Christ taught a small God, then, that God taught a small God. Like I said, claptrap. You appear to be suffering from claptrapitis, now moving on to saying the very teaching of God of the Bible is small. Naturally, you wouldn't understand that having the Holy Spirit is even called having the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians 2:16, Jesus Christ also God, incarnate, John 1, His sole purpose that we KNOW, Greek epignosis, and understand Him, according to scripture. In addition, scripture teaches a progressive sanctification of believers, such that we grow in grace and are conformed to the image of Christ, Romans 8:29, that our lives are about knowing God, not saying, what the heck, I don't really understand anything, invent our own hybrid religions, and even try to tell people the God of scripture is small as, again, I told you exactly what the Bible states as to born again, the Holy Spirit, the doctrine of the Christian faith, from God. If that's a small God to you, that’s your problem.

Your real problem is that you neither know or, naturally, believe the Bible, which, ironically, you can't, without the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 2:14. This also means you're the last person who should say anything, whatsoever, about Christianity, as nothing you're saying is true. You're like a blind man, doing a commentary on a painting. What you need to do is repent before God and have exclusive faith in Jesus Christ, get to know everything you can, everything "small" that your "small God" said in scripture, before it's too late.

Buddha is long gone, is dead and stayed dead. You would be much better off, getting to know the One that rose from the dead and ascended back to heaven, in the sight of many men, and did many things Buddha could not, in the sight of many men. But, if you prefer Buddha, taking a dirt nap, that’s fine, then. But, for Christ’s sake, don’t speak on Christ things you, clearly, know nothing about.

Truly, Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

If you really think the literal interpretation of gospels is truth then you are dismissing a warning from Apostle Peter who warned that the Gospels are a test. The literal interpretation of gospels (even Genesis) are full of falsehoods, that have to be unravelled before you can discover the truth. Perhaps that is the key to heaven.

So do you think you are more wiser than Apostle Peter, that you know the truth and he didn't?

And with us, indeed, who have had handed down from our forefathers the worship of the God who made all things, and also the mystery of the books which are able to deceive, he will not prevail; but with those from amongst the Gentiles who have the polytheistic fancy bred in them, and who know not the falsehoods of the Scriptures, he will prevail much.

Apostle Peter, Clementine Homilies, Book 3.4

The Gospels are not about Jesus Christ nor his blood sacrifice. The Jews don't believe in original sin (aka ancestral sin). So drowning yourself in these falsehoods is not Christianity but a doctrine of deceit that will block your from your path. Jesus said himself, he did not come to destroy the law (Matthew. 5:17-18) but to fulfil it. So don't pretend to know more about Jewish law than the Jews. We do not. So seek advice from a Rabbi about celestial sin for your own good.

I really don't care what you think you know about Buddha. Perhaps you are trying to save me, and I thank you for those thoughts, but before you can save others, you need make sure you are on solid ground yourself.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Scrutinizing

If you really think the literal interpretation of gospels is truth then you are dismissing a warning from Apostle Peter who warned that the Gospels are a test. The literal interpretation of gospels (even Genesis) are full of falsehoods, that have to be unravelled before you can discover the truth. Perhaps that is the key to heaven.

That's so funny! Now, according to you, we have a Bible full of falsehoods, now God is a liar, the Creator of the universe incapable of authoring a reliable book, 2 Timothy 3:16. Now, your big God, you claim, just got very small and evil. You truly do suffer from stage three claptrapitis. I can't tell you how silly it is to try stuff like that on with a Christian. You don't even realize you're just being a Satanic knucklehead, trying to foster doubt as to the validity of scripture, exactly the same thing the devil gets up to:

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" 2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' " 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Same, stupid ploy as in the Garden, hath God really said so? Hot off the press: we don't fall for that one, anymore.

Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "

It has to be the case you don't know how silly it is, to tell any true Christian to throw out chunks of the Bible. You really need to get up to speed and find some slier approach, because, as it stands, you're just a funny guy. I don't see how fake Christians would even buy anything you're selling. I've seen a lot of fakes that, at least, do a pretty good job of twisting scripture, albeit trolls that get stuff form cult websites, or cult adherents, themselves, not enough to fool any real Christian, but can start a forum thread and generate a rousing discussion amongst other fakes.

You can take this to the bank: the stuff you're peddling will never really get off the ground. It's always a waste of time to deceive, as those with eyes to see are led by the Spirit into all truth, can't be deceived, for long, will walk away from you, the first, single thing you say, contrary to the word of God in scripture, and what service do you do the devil, if you, on some outside chance, get somebody already blind and damned to signup for your silly lies? Don't you understand that's, exactly, the blind leading the blind into the ditch, all you can possibly accomplish? If somebody goes to hell, for not believing in God at all, or for not believing half of what He says, what's the point? If you made one "convert", that would be a person, already lost, that rejects the most fundamental Christian doctrine. Here's what you'd have:

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Guess one could say you got no game, posting all that garbage for, what, the already damned, that don't know truth? Put it this way. If a child of God is never going to buy what you're selling, and some poor, blind slob were to signup for your claptrap, what have you accomplished? Somebody, what, goes to hell, believing a modified lie? A new lie? You've accomplished nothing. What you're doing is called a waste of time and energy. In fact, do you think you're seriously discussing Christian theology, or simply making a fool of yourself? Something to contemplate.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

So your god (the christian god) sent his son down (who was really himself) to get himself killed (even though he’s supposedly god, so it doesn’t really matter because surely a god can’t die), to be resurrected to forgive us our sins?

Yeah. Makes complete sense in a fairy tale, not so much in the real world.

And yes, the christian bible is full of proven falsehoods.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Scrutinizing

So your god (the christian god) sent his son down (who was really himself) to get himself killed (even though he’s supposedly god, so it doesn’t really matter because surely a god can’t die), to be resurrected to forgive us our sins?

Yeah. Makes complete sense in a fairy tale, not so much in the real world.

And yes, the christian bible is full of proven falsehoods.

Wow! Are you saying you don't believe? Shocking, I tell you, shocking! You could knock me over with a feather! We've never heard that one before. Thank you for that prescient reply. So true, Psalms 14:1.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

Why would I believe a fairy tale full of falsehoods?

I quit believing in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus a few years before I stopped believing in a god that is supposedly his son born from a virgin.

Bye hey, I’m sure the tooth fairy still keeps you warm at night.

a reply to: Scrutinizing

You view the Gospels as a story about GODs life. I view the Gospels as a PATH that christian's need follow. If Jesus is GOD then what hope has a mortal man in following that path. Only fools would try to follow the footsteps of a GOD.

But if Jesus was a mortal man with mortal weaknesses and aspirations. We can view the Gospels as a guide to seek our own spirituality. A path to become one with the Father as Jesus had achieved.

So its not about questioning the Gospels, if they were written by GOD or not. Its all about you and your faith. If you just want be a spectator. Or prepared to walk the desert to fight your own demons. Not just about reading in a book that we should turn our cheek. But wanting to turn our cheek with every fiber in our being. To love everyone as if they are our siblings.

I am saying Christianity is much much more than even you believe.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: glend

religion is full of control contracts designed to facilitate the priest casts and financial system.

Yes it is. By those who do not really accept Jesus Christ as the only Son of God, believe that he was born of a virgin birth, died on the cross for all of us, and look for His return.

Many people "use" religion as a way to commit their crimes. The Bible even talks about this happening in the days of Jesus, where it says he went in to the temples (the modern "church" in His day) and overturned the tables and told them not to dishonor the holy place by doing business in the temple.

a reply to: TruthJava

"Many people "use" religion as a way to commit their crimes."

Yes indeed they do, the Vatican being the main contender there. LoL

Look mate, short of the Bible, which by the way is nothing more than a product of Man, with all his fear and fallibility at play, you have absolutely no proof whatsoever that Jesus ever existed.

Same with his daddy, and all the other anthropomorphic sky gods.

Truth is all organized religious practices can trace their direct lineage back to one of two avenues, Sun worship or nature worship.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: toms54

Tom, I watched a documentary the other night of a christian group called Children of God in which the leader (David Berg) convinced his patronage that it was ok to have sex with children. Anyone questioning of his belief was of cause questioning the authority of Jesus thus was an agent of satan.

So when is one allowed to question belief. Even if it appears disgusting and obnoxious to your 'personal' belief system? If a religion is so rigid that it disallows questioning of beliefs, then I would suggest that its not a religion but a cult.

Please explain why you are offended,

Glend Hi, I can explain why I felt the same way.

I believe we are living in the last days and that Satan is working overtime to deceive as many as he can before his time is over. Because of this, every (not some, but EVERY) where I go to read or discuss ANYTHING...the "christianity bashing" has gotten completely out of control this last couple years and is taking over every topic of discussion. It is not just here on ATS, it is everywhere. Now, I personally understand people have their own beliefs, and I do not make it my life's work to interject into EVERY converstation everywhere about how the other person is wrong. In contrast - this is what many non-believers do to the Christian belief every minute of every day.

No, not everyone gets offended by this. Why? because perhaps they aren't truly a Christian? Perhaps they don't take the Bible to heart? Christianity according to what Christ taught is not a cult. But so many throughout history have used religion to carry out their evil deeds because they have been guided in their hearts by satanic influences who DO KNOW how to mess with people.

If you ever accepted Jesus Christ into your heart then you would also be "offended". By this I mean you also would be so sad and frustrated of just watching your fellow man, friends, and family disregard the only hope there is and laugh all the way. It is hard to take. But as the Bible clearly states: "They will choke on a gnat, but swallow a camel".

a reply to: TruthJava

"I believe we are living in the last days and that Satan is working overtime to deceive as many as he can before his time is over. "

People have been making similar claims and believing such since the turn of the dark age and probably long before.

Accepting anything at face value is fraught with problems and can only lead to disappointment, every one of us should question everything, all of the time, period.

a reply to: TruthJava

Hi TruthJava, thanks for explaining your feelings and I do apologise for my part in that. I am of different opinion in regards to the plight of families and friends that don't accept Christianity. If they are of good heart they will evolve to a lifetime in which they will hear the call. And in that lifetime they will commit to GOD. These beliefs were shared by early christian teachings here but were latter declared heresy in 553AD by Rome.

Personally I don't think Rome should have had any more say in Christianity than Trump today, should have in Judaism. But censorship is a powerful tool in altering minds to accept a different point of view.

Anyways, I feel the love in you. And I saw GOD's spark in MLK eyes. So I cannot deny that Christianity works for some.