Christian Virgin Birth - Why Jews didn't buy it.

The virgin birth of Jesus are described in the gospels of Luke and Matthew.

Matthew 1.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

Luke 1.
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
34 And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"
35 And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

These two gospels are the only documents that mention the virgin birth in the 1st century,

But in 2nd century, Celsus a Greek philosopher, wrote that Mary was convicted of adultery with a Roman soldier named Tiberius Pantera. Tiberius Pantera was born 22 B.C.E. in Sidon, Lebanon, serving as a Roman soldier stationed in Nazareth. It is thought that Celsus sourced that information from Talmud writings that referred to Jesus as "Yeshu ben Pantera" .

Talmud writings tell....
When her pregnancy became known, the rabbis declared her a sotah, an adulteress woman. Her fiancé, Joseph, sought to end his betrothal to her and refused to marry her. An angel, Gabriel, is said to have appeared to him, convincing him to marry Mary for the child to be born would become a savior to his people. When the baby Jesus (Yeshu) was born, the rabbis declared him a mamzer, a bastard child born of an illicit relationship. The Talmud makes references to him as Yeshu ben Pantera (Jesus, son of Pantera) and declared officially that Pantera was indeed the biological father. In the Jerusalem Talmud, Jesus is referred to as “ha hu”…that one. The Babylonian Talmud refers only to Yeshu ben Pantera.
here

Joseph was perhaps 60+YO according to 6th century "History of Joseph the Carpenter" after his previous wife's death, wanted to marry Mary;
Mary was perhaps 12-14 yo when betrothed to Joseph.
Tiberius Pantera was 18 yo;

Its understandable that she would fall in love with someone more her own age.

In 1859, a gravestone of a Roman soldier called "Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera" was found in Germany. Now what are the odd's of that!

Perhaps Timothy knew of the writings of Matthew and Luke....
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, 4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship[a] from God that is by faith.
Timothy 1.3

Clearly it makes far more sense that Jesus had a natural birth than myths and endless genealogies that suggests otherwise. Our body, our genealogy is mere clothing for our unconquerable soul. Mary's birth means nothing to spirituality of Jesus.

Perhaps the holy ghost worked though Tiberius Pantera so Gospel of Mathew not untruthful.

Your thoughts?

I am always reminded of the Amazonian tribe who worshiped the white river dolphin. Supposedly the dolphin could change into a man or a woman.. This tribe had a big taboo about hanky panky until you were (there version of married).. The threat was castration for the boy and death to the girl; pretty serious stuff I must say.... Well it would seem the headman's daughter got knocked up but she and her boyfriend got off the hook by claiming the dolphin god came to her in the night.. Unfortunately the godly child did not make it to full term (probably 3 months) and was dead on delivery.. Been a very long time since I read that story but I think it is what I recall..

I have never heard the story about Tiberius Pantera... But nothing would surprise me... Thanks for the thought provoking thread S&F

I think the story of Jesus is far more tragic than the most devote believers throughout history and the 'faith' have been able to comprehend.

While his real story is very raw and real, it's the superstitious grandiose that even he himself was indoctrinated into from birth that both provided and encouraged his endless imagination to grow, mature and ultimately actualize that faith in ways few have ever done, but at the cost of recognizing the betrayal and lie of altruism that was the conclusion.

"Father why have you forsaken me?"

The father he never knew, The bastard son he was, The ghost he was encouraged to believe in.

Jesus's story is more common, real and relatable than the inflated faith around him could ever be... which in turn is what betrayed him.

a reply to: glend

Not sure you are speaking for Jews or about Judaism.

As one of my Jewish high school friends, so eloquently put this topic:

‘Why didn’t Joseph tap that sooner’

No Christian at the lunch table could response with anymore than mumbling.

a reply to: glend

So, in the bible, one account says the Angel appeared to Mary ... and the other account ... says the Angle appeared to Joseph.

Perhaps it just shows that even the earliest records we have show a church besotted by sex. Well, they haven't changed much have they?

P

a reply to: glend

The title of this thread made me chuckle out loud.
Well played OP.

a reply to: glend

So you have one part of a story from the Talmud . A few verses from the NT 2 of which that touch on the immaculate conception . A grave of a roman soldier (gentile) at that . I am surprised you didn't round out your work with a few quotes from the Quran . All is needed now is to get a modern scholar like a Bart Erman to create a paper on the whole thing .More then likely even Bart wouldn't touch it though. One red flag is plenty for a eternity as some say .

But yea get it on to the front of a tabloid near the checkout counter and even Christians would want to have a peek
inside . Weather they would succumb to the curiosity and make the purchase is another story I guess Maybe we are witnessing a battle of the tabloids where ancient aliens might get knocked off the top spot as having the real scoop on Jesus .

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: glend

So, in the bible, one account says the Angel appeared to Mary ... and the other account ... says the Angle appeared to Joseph.

Perhaps it just shows that even the earliest records we have show a church besotted by sex. Well, they haven't changed much have they?

P

Angels appeared to both of them. At different times. The first to inform Mary what was happening. The 2nd later on to confirm to Joseph what was happening. It would make sense for him to think she slept with someone else and that he should not marry her.

a reply to: glend

You mean the same Talmud that declares Jewish men can have sexual relations with a getile slave at the age of 3. The Talmud is not a historical document to be trusted.

Joseph is accepted to have the lineage of King David. Marrying a non virgin in his time as his first wife would have had such a negative impact on his own societal standings it doesn't make sense that he would have married an unclean adulterous.

Attempts to discredit Christ's virgin birth are nothing more than tabloid fodder. I will stick to the gospels which were written by those who had walked with him over outside sources that cannot be verified.

His followers suffered sever persecution. Something supernatural must have taken place for so many to sacrifice so much.

If it was not a virgin birth it makes much more sense that her and Joseph had premarital sexual relations than this nonsense.

Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera has geni profile ( no relatives there tho)

in burp reads :

Early Jewish sources make Jesus the son of Panthera, a Roman soldier. "Rabbi Shiemon ben Azzai has said: I found in Jerusalem a book of genealogies; therein was written that Such-an-one [a common Jewish euphemism for Jesus] is the bastard son of an adultress." (Mishnah). If true, this must have been before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, so preserves a very early tradition.

The story was also reported the Greek philosopher Celsus (c. 178): "[Celsus] accuses [Jesus] of having 'invented his birth from a virgin,' and upbraids him with being 'born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning, and who was turned out of doors by her husband, a carpenter by trade, because she was convicted of adultery; that after being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, an illegitimate child, who having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired some miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own county, highly elated on account of them, and by means of these proclaimed himself a god.'" (Origen Adamantius (c. 185-254), Contra Celsus, 1.28). "But let us return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that 'when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera' . . ." (Origen, 1.32; see also 1.69). Some Christian apologists note that Panthera could have been a satirical pun on the Greek word parthenos (virgin).

One of the heresies St. Epiphanius of Salamis (315-403) attempted to refute was the charge that "Jesus was the son of a certain Julius whose surname was Panthera."

A tombstone found in Bingerbrück, Germany in 1859 bears the name Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera, a Roman soldier from Sidon who served in the Cohors I Sagittariorum. Craveri has suggested that this Panthera was Jesus' father (Craveri). The full inscription reads, "Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera from Sidon, aged 62 years served 40 years, former standard bearer (?) of the first cohort of archers lies here." (CIL 13:7514). Pantera, which is this man's given name, was a common Syrian name, meaning panther.

Later Jewish tradition is confused about the details: "But is it not (the case that) Ben Stada brought magic marks from Egypt in the scratches on his flesh?" They said to him, "He was a madman and you cannot base laws on (the actions of) madmen." Was he then the son of Stada? Surely he was the son of Pandira? Rabbai Hisda [a third-century Babylonian] said, "The husband was Stada, the paramour was Pandira." (But was not) the husband Pappos ben Yehuda? His mother was Stada. (But was not) his mother Miriam (Mary) the hairdresser? (Yes, but she was nicknamed Stada) -- Pumbeditha, "s'tat da [this one has turned away from, was unfaithful to] her husband." (Tosefta, Shabbat 11.15, quoted by Smith, 47). This passage shows confusion with another Jesus, Jesus ben Stada, a sorcerer who was condemned by a rabbinic court in Lydda, and stoned (Tosefta, Sanhedrin 10:11, cited by Smith, 47). Note that the passage calls Jesus' mother a hairdresser, an occupation assigned in Christian tradition to St. Mary Magdalene. The word means braider. Another translation often given is spinner.

Geni

There were many men named Jesus at that time, even the jews were confused who is who it seems.
Nevertheless it is intrestng read.

a reply to: glend

Virgin Birth my arse. LoL

Just like the rest of the book its should be taken metaphorically and understood that religion is full of control contracts designed to facilitate the priest casts and financial system.

originally posted by: glend
The virgin birth of Jesus are described

I'd say Is described. But I don't read a lot. especially when it is a lot. And religious to boot.

originally posted by: SocratesJohnson
As one of my Jewish high school friends, so eloquently put this topic:

‘Why didn’t Joseph tap that sooner’

No Christian at the lunch table could response with anymore than mumbling.

Oh god, this describes religion perfectly....

I mean... us atheists think we have problems.. but just look above. We're living on easy street by comparison.

a reply to: glend

Perhaps the holy ghost worked though Tiberius Pantera so Gospel of Mathew not untruthful. Your thoughts?

The work of Celsus is actually lost so in that respect about all we have is an educated guess of his work to the autographs. This Celsus was not only a Greek but also had a great hatred for any thought of Christianity. This subject of Yahusha being a bastard was not the only subject matter that Celsus despised. His entire life works were to destroy Christianity.

We also must look very carefully at Origen who was actually discredited in his convoluted Christian philosophy and declared a heretic by most all church fathers. Origen taught others that all spirits [whatever they are], were created equal in the bundle of life and did exist prior to becoming procreated. They lived in their celestial bodies and in the celestial realm had a celestial life beyond any thing that we can imagine. These celestial entities were not angels but were a race of everlasting existence of some sort. Then sin was introduced in this celestial realm and those that sinned were cast into human bodies, demon spirits and angels.

Origen was truly a heretic and totally not Christian by any sort of measure. So here we have two non Christians debating an issue of Christian theology with no autographs to show by either party. Then to add to this discussion we have Celsus who uses the word JEW without realizing that the NT Jew was most all influenced by the Sadducee's. Why is this so important? This is most important because the average Hellenist did not accept the celestial realm of spirits or humans becoming spirits or spirits becoming humans. The Sadducee believed that all life [regardless of how that life came to be] ceased any sort of existence after death.

So the theological debate can go on forever in that form of understanding. I could never believe either man much less the Jerusalem Talmud's rabbinic opinions. Both Talmuds have been rewritten and edited to suite their doctrines of Judaism and were actually opinions of rabbis who did not use the prophets as their guides but instead made themselves teachers of their own understanding. just my opinion of course- lol

I always understood that it was a mistranslation, with Mary described as "not having children before" being mistranslated into her being a virgin. If she was 12-14 years old, then that might have been true when she married, but not in relation to her giving birth to Jesus later.

Mistranslations abound. The Romans later indicated that Jesus was a "god," but it was their habit to make everybody important a god.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Saint Clement of Rome, first Apostolic Father of the Rome Church, disciple of the Apostle Peter, wrote a literature called Clementine Homilies. In one of his books he wrote ....

And with us, indeed, who have had handed down from our forefathers the worship of the God who made all things, and also the mystery of the books which are able to deceive, he will not prevail; but with those from amongst the Gentiles who have the polytheistic fancy bred in them, and who know not the falsehoods of the Scriptures, he will prevail much.

So if you believe that Christianity is a historical account of a Jewish man called Jesus, you that are mistaken. Christianity is about you. And you will only find the pearl by digging for the truth behind the falsehoods. Not by protecting the falsehoods.

Likewise a Rabbi will tell you the Torah isn't about physical garden with tree's growing in it. The truth behind the symbolism has far greater meaning. Its also about you. Your true spiritual nature has the garden, tree and snake within you.

So the purpose of this thread was not to attack Christianity, only your concepts of Christianity.

a reply to: glend

Your true spiritual nature has the garden, tree and snake within you.

I will be pondering this statement for a while. Thank you.

a reply to: Seede

Its sounds like Origen was explaining our spiritual nature from his understanding of Genesis. Christianity also must have had higher understanding that was given to advanced practitioners (like the apostles). Without being party to that knowledge we are not in a position to ridicule Origen.

Origen once wrote "Scripture contains an unhistorical element in-woven with the history, in order that the worthlessness of the latter may drive us to seek the spiritual meaning”.

I see nothing but truth in those words. Its how they wrote in those ages. So stories could be transmitted orally by the uninitiated. This I feel is lost with many of todays followers. They must stop seeing Jesus the man. And start seeing Jesus as the path. Else the great pearl will forever be outside their reach. My humble opinion of course.

And of cause I always weigh your opinion highly. I know your heart is righteous.

a reply to: glend

The story that Jesus was the son of a man named Pantera is referred to in the Talmud, in which Jesus is widely understood to be the figure referred to as "Ben Stada":

Talmud was re-written to suit their agenda for the massess. Same as fake bible these days.