The return of Jesus

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus' return is on a personal basis not an impersonal one such as him coming out of the clouds. When one finds the light they find Jesus. Look at what you see, only when you recognize the light that's always been there will "Jesus" make himself/itself known to you.

Exactly. This is one case where subjective truth is more important that objective proof.

"Two men sailing in a boat encounter a terrible storm. The boat takes on water and is sure to sink. One man ties himself to the boat, because the boat has always protected him from the dangers of the sea. The other man turns onto his back, arms wide, eyes to the heavens, and floats away from the boat. The boat sinks, lost to the black depths. The other man floats through the storm, and when the storm subsides he is rescued by another passing boat. Let those with ears listen!" -- Galveston, Texas, 2015

a reply to: DpatC

You sound as thought you are not seeking an answer but trying to vindicate your beliefs. If there are no written records of Jesus own words that we have been allowed to see then you feel it is not to be trusted.

Faith is a strange thing, when it comes to you it brings the ability to feel the truth in the words. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of that or what they believe to be true it is between you and your creator.

He will be back in a minute. Went to the store for a pack of smokes...





He is sitting on the right hand of GOD while he fashions a footstool out of us.

Look to Daniels visions for your answer.

Possibly the son of man is already here.

I think he will show up again when trump expires but i am the crazy one round here.

Some say that Jesus is spending 3 days in hell.

That would suck to go through in order to save the likes of us. Mucho love.

a reply to: DpatC

Now there ain't many people in creation who can represent th Light of Life. It's either a family or the Creator himself - not Jesus, he's only the Light of the World not LIFE

I think you have erred in that Jesus is our Creator and Jesus is the life. That is according to the Apostle John.

John 1:10 He was in the world,and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

For the life of me I just don't get how advanced Humans can still believe in religion's .

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: rickymouse
When the new Messiah shows up, he probably won't be named Jesus. On top of that, Jesus's name wasn't Jesus.

Mary named him after Joshua. Pronunciation is something like Yeshua. Jesus was a translation error. You can call him that. It makes no difference. He knows you are addressing him. God is not stupid

God is not stupid? You sure about that? They made humans, afterall.

You think God is a "they"?

a reply to: DpatC
This question has been asked, from time to time, because people have been looking in the gospels and not finding a direct statement on the subject.
The other writers in the New Testament are clearly expecting him to return, and they must have got that idea from somewhere.
But the questioners would like to see something in his own words.

An explicit promise in his own words can be found in John’s gospel;
“When I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself…”- John ch14 v3
There’s also the incidental reference to this promise in the words “If it is my will that he remain until I come…”- John ch21 v22
But if the questioner isn’t willing to accept the the speeches of John’s gospel as the words of Jesus, the question must be asked again with reference to the teaching in the Synoptic gospels.

There’s a passage of dialogue in the Mikado which points the way towards a possible answer.
It comes near the end, when Ko-Ko and Katisha announce the joyful news of their marriage.
The Mikado observes “You’ve been very quick about it”.
Ko-Ko explains “We were married in front of the Registrar”.
The Lord Pooh-Bah, who is quivering with fear and located in a grovelling position at the time, adds helpfully “I am the Registrar”.
The obvious conclusion is that “the couple were married in front of Pooh-Bah”.
And the interesting point is that everybody who hears the opera comes to that conclusion even though nobody has actually said so.
They’ve not heard a direct statement to that effect, but they’ve just heard the two statements from Ko-Ko and Pooh-Bah which add up to the same thing.

Bearing that in mind, I’m now going to offer two sets of statements which can be found in the gospels.

You must expect to see the Son of Man

So the disciples are warned, when Jesus speaks to them outside the Temple;
“And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds…”- Mark ch13 vv26-7.
This warning is repeated when he is being interrogated;
“You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven”- Mark ch14 v62.

Other statements talk about what will happen ”when” the Son of Man arrives.
He comes acting as a judge;
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations and he shall separate them one from another…” – Matthew ch25 vv31-2.

This judgement scene is clearly based upon the vision in Daniel, when “the Ancient of Days” takes his seat on his throne, to begin judgement, “and behold, with the clouds of heaven, there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.”- Daniel ch7 vv9-13

Jesus speaks of this time as “the day when the Son of Man is revealed”- Luke ch17 v30
And he also tells us that we must be ready, because “the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour”- Luke ch12 v40.
The event will be sudden, “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west”- Matthew ch24 v27

In this time of judgement, one of the decisive factors will be the believer’s response to his own mission;
“And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God”- Luke ch12 v8
But conversely;
“Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him also will the Son of Man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”- Mark ch8 v38

I am the Son of Man

The first appearance of this phrase, “the Son of Man”, comes when the Pharisees are privately questioning the right of Jesus to declare that a man’s sins have been forgiven.
Therefore he tells the paralytic man to take up his pallet and walk home, in order to show them that “the Son of Man has authority in earth to forgive sins”- Mark ch2 vv6-11
Shortly afterwards, he is declaring that “the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath” –v28
In other words, it’s an indirect way of referring to himself, alluding to his own special position.

In both cases the occasional commentator has suggested that the original Aramaic would have meant “men” in general, but that explanation does not really work.
In the first instance, the statement of forgiveness is associated with the act of healing, which is meant to be a sign of delegated authority.
While in the second reference, a statement about “men in general” (“the Sabbath was made for man”) has already been made in the previous verse, using the ordinary word for “man”, so the “Son of Man” which follows should have a different meaning.
The line of argument is that even the ordinary man is the beneficiary rather than the servant of the Sabbath, so the “Son of Man” himself must have an even stronger claim.

Anyway, the next example is less ambiguous.
A man offers to follow Jesus wherever he might go.
The response is to warn him that “the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head”- Luke ch9 v58
This is clearly an indirect way of speaking about himself.

The same is true when he is contrasting himself with John the Baptist;
“For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say ‘He has a demon’;
The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say ‘Behold a glutton and a drunkard’”- Matthew ch11 vv18-19.

And he was certainly speaking about himself when he said “The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”- Mark ch10 v45

Following on from that, a number of statements about the betrayal of the Son of Man;
“For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!”- Mark ch14 v21
The thought is repeated in “The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners” (Matthew ch26 v45) or alternatively in “Would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” (Luke ch22 v48)

You must expect to see me

This follows naturally from combining the other two sets of statements.
The same conclusion is already drawn at a number of points in the gospels.
In Matthew’s version of one of the statements about the coming Son of Man, his identity is taken for granted;
“Everyone who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven”- Matthew ch10 v32
When Jesus warned the chief priests about the coming of the Son of Man, that was his response to a question about himself.

The most remarkable example is the request made by the sons of Zebedee, to be allowed to sit next to him in his glory.
They are clearly taking it for granted that he himself will be the “sitting on a throne” Son Of Man.
What is most revealing is that Jesus does not challenge their assumption.
He only denies having the power to choose his future associates, and warns them that the place of glory is less desirable than they might think.
In fact this was the occasion for his description of the role of the Son of Man, as coming to serve and give his life as a ransom.
So this episode brings into close proximity the two kinds of statement which Jesus was making about the Son of Man.
On the one hand, the phrase means the future judge of the world.
On the other hand, at one and the same time, it means himself.

The early church, in the New Testament, was expecting Jesus to return to judge the world.
The source of that expectatio

I've done threads on this.
The above was my thread on "Where does Jesus say so?"
Unfortunately, slightly longer than the current maximum character count.
The post below was my thread on the teaching in Thessalonians.
For completeness, one could also look at other verses like "Lo, I am coming like a thief" (Revelation ch16 v15)
The post below this one includes a link to the thread quoted in the post above this one.

As the New Testament shows, the early church was always expecting Jesus to return.
That is what Jesus taught them, though in an oblique way. That is, he told his disciples to expect the Son of Man coming in judgement, and referred to himself by the same name. His closest friends took the point, which is why the sons of Zebedee asked for the privilege of sitting beside him on the throne of judgement.
I looked at this promise in a previous thread- The promise to return

As for the rest of the New Testament, the most complete outline of the teaching comes in the two letters to the Thessalonians (which may have been the earliest written portions of the whole collection).

2 Thessalonians

Paul tells them that they will find rest from their tribulations “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire” (ch1 v7).
This image resembles the statement in the Temple discourse; “coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”. These descriptions ought to debunk the foolish modern assumption that Jesus would return by being born into a second human body. The New Testament is expecting nothing of the kind.

The purpose of his return has two aspects.
On the one hand, he is coming in judgement;
“… inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (v8)
As already mentioned, this judgement was also part of the teaching about the coming of the Son of Man.

On the other hand, he is coming in glory, to reveal himself to the world and to collect his followers;
“He comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all those who have believed” (v10).
“… the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him…” (ch2 v1).
This is Paul’s version of the gospel’s “they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Matthew ch24 v31).

Paul warns them against false letters purporting to come from himself and purporting to announce that this day is about to arrive.
They should know that the day will not come yet, because the “man of sin” has to appear on the scene first (v3). Some manuscripts call him the “man of lawlessness”. Both titles mean that he sets himself against the will of God.

This figure appears to be derived from the account of the hostile king at the end of Daniel.
Daniel’s king has political power aided by a strong network of allies (the result of making “many covenants”).
He uses his political power to assert control over religious affairs. He is the more willing to do so because he respects none of the traditional gods and worships only “the god of fortresses”. In other words, presumably, he puts all his trust in his own military power. “He shall magnify himself above all”.
Thus he is bold enough to challenge the worship of the Lord. He introduces the ”abomination which causes desolation”- that is, a form of idolatry which has the effect of separating the people from their God. There follows a state of “tribulation”.
In all these things, he is evidently modelled on the infamous king Antiochus Epiphanes.

Various aspects of this description are echoed in different portions of the New Testament.
The Beast in Revelation has political power aided by the allegiance of the “ten kings”.
Matthew’s gospel specifies the ”abomination of desolation”, and both books refer to the tribulation.
In this letter, Paul covers the point that “he opposes and exalts himself against every so-called object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God” (v4).
We do not need to assume that he occupies a physical temple, because Paul tells us in another letter that the Christian community itself is the temple of God, the dwelling-place of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians ch3 v16).
So the man of sin may be “sitting in the temple” when he controls the external aspect of the Christian community. Since he is a ruler in the first instance, his power in religious affairs would be a by-product of his political power, as in the case of Antiochus Epiphanes and Nero (not to mention Hitler and Stalin). In other words, he is probably not the Pope.

We are told that his arrival is accompanied by “pretended signs and wonders”, which matches the picture in Revelation ch13. There will be great deception “for those who are to perish”.
The origin of the deception is described in two different ways.
On the one hand, it happens because “they refuse to love the truth”.
On the other hand, it happens because “God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false” (vv9-10).
This double explanation is found elsewhere in the Bible, providing one of its more mysterious themes. The classic example is the “hardening of Pharaoh’s heart”.
It seems to say that when people are determined to set themselves against the will of God, he may allow their disobedience to continue unrestrained- “giving them enough rope”, as it were- and this may then be described as God making them do it.

Paul calls this deception “the mystery of lawlessness”. John’s version of this idea is that “the spirit of antichrist has come into the world” (except that translators have added the word “spirit”).
This mystery is inhibited, for the moment, by “he who now restrains” (v7)
This has to be a reference to the Holy Spirit. The power of the deception is muted as long as the world is under the unconscious influence of the Spirit. Only when that influence is withdrawn can the deception come out into the open and be “revealed”.

All this has a bearing on the timing of the return of Jesus. For one of the elements of his return in judgement will be the destruction of the “man of lawlessness” (v8).
Therefore, Jesus will not return before the man of lawlessness has come out into the open.
Therefore we should not beexpecting Jesus to return before that man has been revealed.
Therefore the Thessalonians should not be hasty to believe and react to messages purporting to come from Paul, and purporting to announce the imminent arrival of that day (vv1-3).
The advice holds good, even today. We should not allow ourselves to get “quickly shaken in mind or excited” by predictions of the imminent return of Christ, before the man of sin has clearly shown himself.

Oops. Thessalonians thread had second post.
1 Thessalonians

In the first letter to the Thessalonians, we see the more personal application of this teaching.
The expectation of the return of Christ is defined as one of the most basic elements of their faith;
“You turned to God from idols, to serve a living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come” (ch1 vv9-10).
That last phrase answers the occasional modern question about salvation; “What are we supposed to be saved from?”
The New Testament answer is quite clear. We are being saved from the prospect of condemnation in the time of judgement. The outpouring of God’s wrath towards the world is to be combined with the protection of his own people.
That is exactly what happened in the days of Noah, which is why the New Testament understands the Noah story as foreshadowing the role of Christ.

But what about those believers who die before Christ returns? Will they still benefit from salvation, or will they miss out? Paul’s readers are concerned about this point, and he has to re-assure them.
Those believers who are “dead in Christ” will come back. Their coming back is described in two different ways.
On the one hand, “through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep” (ch4 v14).
On the other hand, they will rise from the dead and then join the living faithful in being “caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (vv16-17). (Given these alternatives, it is best not to be too dogmatic about what the experience will look like)
This common experience, of the living and the dead, is also described in his later letter to the Corinthians; “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed… For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians ch15 vv51-52).

“We shall be caught up to meet the Lord….So we shall always be with the Lord”.
The Latin version of ”caught up” is RAPTUS.
This verse is the source of the modern “Rapture” doctrine, but the passage as a whole makes it clear where the modern Rapture doctrine is going wrong.
In this letter, the being “caught up” is tied very firmly to the return of Christ, the resurrection, the time of judgement, and the end of this present world. Nothing follows these events except “We shall always be with the Lord”.
There is no interval between this rapture and the rest of the final events.
There is no interval.
So any interpreter who tries to insert an interval, and fill it with half the book of Revelation, is grossly in error.

We are told that this event, the Day of the Lord, will come “like a thief in the night” (ch5v2)
This comparison is based on one of the sayings of Jesus; “If the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched” (Matthew ch24 v43). The point is that the Day comes without immediate warning. For those who are not on the alert, it arrives unexpectedly.
It will arrive as a sudden catastrophe (for the world at large) even while people are saying “”There is peace and security”. Despite the phrase “when people say”, this is not really about the use of the words themselves. It is about the complacency of those who don’t expect any trouble to interrupt their easy existence. They think they have bolted the doors and the windows.

How is this teaching compatible with the expectation of a time of tribulation?
It seems that the tribulation will run its course before the world ends. Jesus said that the days of tribulation would be “shortened for the sake of the elect”- thus confirming, of course, that the elect would still be there (Matthew ch24 v23).

And how is this teaching compatible with the expectation of “signs”?
The truth is that there is no promise of any clear and unmistakable warnings which will force themselves upon people’s attention.
Any signs will be read by those who are willing to read them, and not read by those who are not interested. The second group is the one that will be taken most completely by surprise.
This is the difference between “the sons of day” and “the sons of night”.
Coming back to the picture of the thief and the householder, it is the difference between those who are keeping awake and alert and those who have fallen asleep (in the negative, neglectful sense).
By a natural association of thought (based on observation of human life), being asleep is equated with being drunk, so it is also the difference between the drunk and the sober (vv5-8).

Paul’s main concern is with the sober, watchful children of the day.
The Day of the Lord will not come as a shock to them.
They should maintain themselves during the interval in faith and love and in the hope of salvation (and we need to remember that there is no uncertainty in the New Testament understanding of “hope”).
God has destined us for salvation, so that we might live with Christ, whether we are waking or sleeping- that is, alive or deceased- when he returns (vv9-10).

For the believer, the promise of salvation is the key point about the return of Jesus.
What we need is that God should sanctify us, so that our whole being may be “kept sound and blameless”, to be discovered in that condition when he arrives.
“He who calls you is faithful, and he will do it” (vv23-24).

Since i was a young lad i have had the same vision of the future.

It all starts with a great explosion of a plane in the sky.

That is the point where i always reverted back into myself and lost track of events from there.

We are very close to something.

Watch the next chance for great peace closely.

I think we are past the rumors of war now.

I speak of peace because of the new face of war. Total war makes no sense in an age where great powers can maintain large and relatively invulnerable nuclear forces and refuse to surrender without resort to those forces. It makes no sense in an age where a single nuclear weapon contains almost ten times the explosive force delivered by all the allied air forces in the Second World War. It makes no sense in an age when the deadly poisons produced by a nuclear exchange would be carried by wind and water and soil and seed to the far corners of the globe and to generations yet unborn...jfk

originally posted by: howtonhawky
I think we are past the rumors of war now.

There has always been war waging someplace on Earth. We call it "history."

a reply to: Blue Shift

Yep

also war going on inside us most of the time.

It is my belief that the scripture is referring to great wars involving all of us.

A point in history where we could actually kill everyone.

a reply to: DpatC

Here are 44 verses that answer your question.

ipost.christianpost.com...

a reply to: Blue Shift

Who is this "god" person anyway ... and if he is so "omnipotent", why does he need "criminals" to speak for him? and if he is so good, why did he tell the jews to commit genocide.

Has it ever occurred to you, that "God" is a parasite? Or, has it occurred to you to even question your own existance ... do you exist? look at yourself, you "imagine" yourself to be a soul ... that occupies your body.

A soul, occupying your body ... that will transcend and survive when the body dies.

Isn't that another way of saying that YOU are a parasite, running around in a monkey suit?

You think "believing" is a good thing? You should never believe anything, you aren't convinced off ... and belief, is not conviction ... if it isn't "provable", it can never be a conscious conviction ... merely an abstract belief. An abstract belief, is not a system to develop laws to kill people, based on your perception of an abstract entity.

You have no clue, of what is ... and what isn't. You don't even know, what YOU are ...

No Jesus won't return... because fairy tales aren't real.

It's always disturbed me how religious people have been essentially waiting for a cataclysmic world ending event for over 2000 years, to prove their religion, rather than just getting on with life, bettering themselves personally and enjoying the moment.

originally posted by: bjarneorn
You have no clue, of what is ... and what isn't. You don't even know, what YOU are ...

And what (who) exactly are you?

a reply to: puzzlesphere

That is a bold claim to make that no believers have lived a full life because they have all been sitting around waiting.

I think you may have some bias showing.

a reply to: bjarneorn

Who is this "god" person anyway

You ask all the right questions.

He uses the good the bad and the ugly so that we may exist.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: howtonhawky
I think we are past the rumors of war now.

There has always been war waging someplace on Earth. We call it "history."

History

As in his story

Jesus as in he's us