Does the U.S.A. secretly love illegal immigrants?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: enlightenedservant

This is also why illegal immigration crackdowns never address or target the businesses doing the exploiting.

Exactly. Capitalism thrives on cheap labor and businesses will almost always look to reduce labor costs. If they can't get cheap labor overseas, then they'll go for cheap prison labor or undocumented labor here. And even if they can get those cheap forms of labor, they'll still look to automate whatever processes they can in order to further reduce labor costs.

It's easier to attack the "others" instead of people considered respectable businessmen.

You mean like this?

President Donald Trump hired hundreds of undocumented Polish immigrants to demolish a New York City building in 1980 and paid them as little as $4 an hour without providing proper safety equipment to do the job, court documents show.

The workers and their contractor, William Kaszycki of Kaszycki & Sons, sued Trump for unfair labor practices in 1983. After litigation dragged on for 15 years, Trump ultimately paid $1.375 million to settle the case.

“We worked in horrid, terrible conditions,” Wojciech Kozak, one of the undocumented Polish workers at the demolition site, told the Times. “We were frightened illegal immigrants and did not know enough about our rights.”

The settlement was kept under seal for nearly two decades. But last week, in response to a motion filed by Time Inc. and the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, U.S. District Court Judge Loretta A. Preska ordered the documents be made public.

President Trump Hired Undocumented Immigrants for $4 An Hour for Demolition Project: Court Docs

a reply to: MarkOfTheV

I moved back east. Ironically the libs here have no football stadium and the woodshop is decked with three cnc two for wood, one a plasma cutter. Full professional woodshed with drum sanders etc, 3d printers, laser cutter etc.

I think this whole issue is complex. You have guys like Rick perry letting in an exodus of Mexicans to build his cities and get that revenue. Austin doubled in 10 years in population. I was miserable working there in the wild west. Contractors would skimp on porter potties and you never knew what you would find in a paint bucket.

But I realized it was larger on the people employing and letting them in. It creates a cycle where you can't compete honestly if the state won't protect the laws already there on employment. So then the honest guys are left to do it.

I do think the politicians and employers who caused this want people to blame the labor. It's easy to say hey your life sucks because of the immigrants. Meanwhile the employer isn't paying a fair wage, workman's comp, ssi, healthcare, etc on his illegals saving millions in many cases.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
a reply to: saint4God
I'm sure you checked the laborors for their green card to didn't you?

I did not. There aren't green cards any more and the regulations on Visas have grown more complex, but the contractor as the employer is expected to obey the law.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
Your example sounds racist.

How so? There were 3 roofers, they were from Honduras, we talked. The contractor could have been racist, but I did not know him personally and am unqualified to judge him. The most I could discern is he had a preference for workers from a different national origin.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
The carpenters union isn't a small group of carpenters. It is the biggest. Ot does the most building in the country.
You are making a bs argument about an industry you have zero knowledge of.

My testimony did occur, may the moderators ban me otherwise. To say that there are 0 illegal immigrants sounds more like the far-reaching claim needing data to support.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
If your going to make a trash talking thread from the title on, at least put it in the mudpit.

The exploratory topic was opened as a question to discern if there was a hidden agenda in government via laws and action. Moderators can decide if the categorization needs correcting.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
Sorry pal, but open borders are a threat to national security in many ways, From backpack bombers, to drug mules, to social and medical services, to job reduction.

None of this was disputed in the opening post. Regarding the newly brought up topic of job reduction however, with an unemployment of 4.1% nationally, this seems not to be a concern.

originally posted by: Mandroid7
There great for democrats wanting voters who will pass their nazi policies though.
Americans aren't that stupid, but dangle citizenship carrot in front of some 3rd "worlders" and maybe they can push their garbage through.

Throw a little "think of the children" on top for the gullible, emotion-based liberals and you have the makings of a policy change.

It's obvious what is going on with this.

It looks like Democrats, Republicans, Independents, etc. all want illegal immigrants, it's just what they say that looks differently. The administration remains the same despite a citizen's 'choice'.

i believe if you got rid of every illegal immigrant our economy would collapse. like it or not illegals are spending a ton of money in this country, they are keeping the economy chugging along. native born americans are not reproducing fast enough to continue to fill american stores and businesses. depending on what area of the united states that you live in your economy might be dominated by illegals and the children of illegals and legal immigrants.

the last few times i have been out at public events the crowd was dominated by foreign speaking people, majority being hispanic but also many asian and europeans as well, now i can't guess on their citizenship status i did notice that if those people were not in attendance the crowds would have been slim to none. this reason coupled with business exploitation for cheap labor is the reason i believe the u.s.a secretly loves illegal immigration.

originally posted by: TonyS
Well, no insult intended, but your last paragraph sounds derned near delusional.

I assure you it was not intentional

originally posted by: TonyS
If you want to solve the problem, there are basically two ways to do that.

1) Set up a truly simplistic "Guest Worker" Visa program to be administered either in US Embassies/Consulates in Mexico/Central America/South America/Canada..........anywhere/whatever OR at Border Crossing Facilities. Basically, you tag'em and bag'em; issue a photo ID, get all their particulars such as relatives contacts both inside and outside the US and the location they plan to reside in, even if only temporarily while seeking work. Let'em transit back and forth across the border as much as they want to......who cares. I would also suggest a health screening.

Although it sounds good to me, isn't this something that was occurring during the Bush administration?

originally posted by: TonyS
2) Simply grant dual citizenship to the residents of the "Americas" wherein they can apply for a US Passport and Social Security ID at the US Embassies. That would also enable them to vote in our elections, but considering the quality of pond scum in office today, I don't have a problem with that.

U.S. citizens may have an issue with this as dual-citizenship would certainly skew voting in favour of one country over another instead of U.S. interests.

originally posted by: TonyS
Problem solved.

Easy-peasy, like George & Weezy, yet here we are having a century old debate.

originally posted by: TonyS
Mexico is a perfect example of just how ridiculous this problem is. I checked! I know a Mexican Attorney. He's told me that Mexicans get birth certificates when they're born; they have to use them to get Mexican Driver's licenses. Mexico knows who these people are................with a little bit of work, US officials could as well.

I suppose this is the point of the thread, as a country we don't want to know who the illegal immigrants are. We're perfectly fine with having business employ across-the-boarder workers, then talk about how it is those worker's fault.

a reply to: saint4God

People doing human trafficking sure do.

My take on this is.

Bring them in. Get them working and paying taxes. Make them sign paperwork saying they can't collect any aid until they have worked here at least 10 years.

This is what they used to do back in the 60's. You signed paperwork stating you could not collect any aid.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: saint4God
Well, how about a question to answer a question.

If it'll help advance the discussion, I'm game.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
Which is smarter, letting anyone who wants to come here in, or them fixing their own countries problems instead?

Looks like a false dichotomy to me, reducing the argument down to two possibilities. There's also the assumption that one can 'fix their own country's problems', which is not the case here. Of the two utopian rainbow unicorns in a choose or die situation, the likely answer would be to fix their own country's problems instead

originally posted by: Blaine91555
Ask yourself why is it that people fleeing bad countries segregate themselves, speak of the country they fled as superior to the US even though they ran away from their own country because it was so bad?

Is it superiority or a sense of home? I suppose it is possible that pride gives some immigrants a sense of superiority, but most citizens even born here have a sense of lineage and heritage as well.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
Why do they not fight to fix their own countries?

Although I don't have the numbers, I think many do. Perhaps many even tried. It's not easy to tell your family, "There is no hope here, we're going to have to leave all we know and start over somewhere else where we'll most likely not be welcomed."

originally posted by: Blaine91555
There is no reason for instance Mexico is not as prosperous as the US. Educated citizens and plenty of natural resources say they should be our equal? So why do they run away to here?

They do it because they can. Because they know the border is weak and our laws are not enforced, so they take the weak persons way out, rather than changing their own countries.

Says the person in their comfy chair in front of a computer. I'm one of those comfy people too, but I would never call any immigrant weak.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
Of course on top of that you have those who wish us harm and the drug cartel's and human traffickers taking advantage of the same weaknesses. Imagine what they would do if the border were suddenly open!

Crime is indeed a problem inside and outside of the country. Surely we don't want more crime and I don't believe anyone has proposed having no border.

a reply to: saint4God

No government can stand up to its populace if they truly want change. People who sit on comfy chairs, do so because many shed blood to make it that way. This country people are fleeing to fought a war against another country and a civil war to make it this way. Those who flee the US are mostly criminals who lie about why they left this country.

My opinion is a bit harsh, but it was formed after a family member was slaughtered by and Illegal in a sanctuary city. A man driven to the border by the Mexican government and helped to cross the border after being convicted of five brutal rapes in southern Mexico. A man who had assaulted three women prior to the murder and then let loose even though, according to the detective on that case, they knew who he was and what he had done in Mexico. Her death was the direct result of the weak border and scum bags who think her life was worth less than that of the Mexican criminal who should have never been here. Who they knew all about and refused to do anything about even though he had assaulted three women on the streets before.

This all looks very different to victims of this insanity, all for political reasons. Her death lies directly on the shoulders of those who want sanctuary cities and weak border enforcement. Her death and many others I'm sure, not to mention the victims of the drug cartels and human traffickers that people love to ignore.

Only an incompetent government would not have policies to protect it's own citizens and only political insanity can explain sanctuary cities. Those for them are willing to overlook the victims as they plea for weak borders from comfy chair's.

Yes we do need a way for workers, who already have jobs and sponsors to come here to work as needed, but we also need a strong border and strong enforcement to stop the criminals, drug gangs and traffickers from making us victims. It's just plain old nuts to think otherwise.

a reply to: grey580

That. Or, military service in exchange for automatic citizenship at the end of the term, say 4 years.

The day you stop wearing the uniform, is the day you take the citizenship oath. Any immigrant would be eligible.

I'm sure there are issues in that that I've not taken into account, but it's something that ought to be explored.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: saint4God

No government can stand up to its populace if they truly want change. People who sit on comfy chairs, do so because many shed blood to make it that way. This country people are fleeing to fought a war against another country and a civil war to make it this way. Those who flee the US are mostly criminals who lie about why they left this country.

My opinion is a bit harsh, but it was formed after a family member was slaughtered by and Illegal in a sanctuary city. A man driven to the border by the Mexican government and helped to cross the border after being convicted of five brutal rapes in southern Mexico. A man who had assaulted three women prior to the murder and then let loose even though, according to the detective on that case, they knew who he was and what he had done in Mexico. Her death was the direct result of the weak border and scum bags who think her life was worth less than that of the Mexican criminal who should have never been here. Who they knew all about and refused to do anything about even though he had assaulted three women on the streets before.

This all looks very different to victims of this insanity, all for political reasons. Her death lies directly on the shoulders of those who want sanctuary cities and weak border enforcement. Her death and many others I'm sure, not to mention the victims of the drug cartels and human traffickers that people love to ignore.

Only an incompetent government would not have policies to protect it's own citizens and only political insanity can explain sanctuary cities. Those for them are willing to overlook the victims as they plea for weak borders from comfy chair's.

Yes we do need a way for workers, who already have jobs and sponsors to come here to work as needed, but we also need a strong border and strong enforcement to stop the criminals, drug gangs and traffickers from making us victims. It's just plain old nuts to think otherwise.

The criminals who you seem to be missing are the thousands of employers who created this.

Some of you folks don't get how it works and I understand some of you are flying by the seat of your pants with emotion.

Mexico is being run by oligarch drug lords. The people wake up to people hanging from street lamps. People get killed in the streets by police. It's not exactly cut and dry.

Also without employment they don't come.

Every other nation controls immigration by majority through illegal employment.

How do 10's of millions of illegals work....because they are allowed to.

By democrats and conservatives.

The real solution is mandatory tracked employee verification and Visa programs that reflect the labor voids of the job market.

But the real problem is that will crush some industries operating with illegals. Also will effect consumers. No more cheap roofs because now they pay the workers workmans comp, ssi, medical, etc and are required to use safety equipment and be bonded to cover multi million dollar insurance claims.


It's the employers who cheated America not the labor they bring over in tour busses.

When I lived in SC even after Texas every plant and harvest literally busses of illegal workers come in. Everyone knows it. Even Trey Gowdy.

Rick perry knew Mexicans built his booms cities, Greg abbot knows they still do. That's why you here zero about busting large scale employers.

So far it took 12 states and 40 7 elevens for Jeff sessions to get a little over a dozen illegals through employment. Whileeveryone knows the builders, meat packers etc with hundreds and sometimes thousands working...

Don't fool yourself. They purposely led you to believe it's the labor. It's not.

And by the way as a family man myself the moral thing would be to stay and fight for your country and send your family to the US where it's safe.

Only a real nut bar wouldn't try and save his kids from war or crime.

The fact everything has been bilingual in the US for at least 10 years is a pretty good sign we're not assimilating people as fast as they are coming in. So in a word, no.

a reply to: luthier

Why would you assume I'm not also equally pissed off at the employers? They should be prosecuted.

You notice I said yes we do need and easy way for workers to get in?

Talking points don't apply here. The need for illegals or corrupt businesses breaking the law does not excuse allowing illegals in, murderers, rapists and drug and human traffickers along with the workers.

I'm all for an easy system for workers to come here, but one that also stops the bad people from coming here. Nobody wants that because then they can't use it to divide us by ideology for purely partisan reasons. The victims have no voice. If anything illegals have a get out of jail free card that citizens can't get.

Say what you want, but history smiles on those willing to fight for the rule of law and is full of tragedy for those who don't.

We don't even see the net result of the influx of illegals who think they can find what they want here. What do you think happens to many of those children and women making their way across the borders with the help of dangerous criminals? How many are killed and abused along the way as the hide from the authorities and trust in scum bags? Are not those for porous borders in some part guilty by association? Don't they enable the mules and traffickers and make it easier for them?

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: MarkOfTheV

Yes its why I was so thrilled with Trump mentioning trade skills in his state of the union address, we have shoved massive student debt down the throats of people that don't need it for far to many years.

Many citizens growing up here have a choice, either massive debt and less physical labour or little/no debt and a lot of physical labour. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but I would prefer a long-term sustainable job with debt rather than getting injured and unable to work. These are two extremes of the equation, but a simplified version of the message our society sends to young career-minded folk. My father's truism is, "You can work with your mind, or you can work with your back".

a reply to: seagull

That's certainly an option as well.

Though there are some security issues that would have to be taken into account.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
You mean like this?

Heh. Yeah. EXACTLY like that.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
I understand what you are trying to say but the plaque is just a poem that won a contest.

The poem is not a contract, not a law, and it is not a free pass.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
The fact everything has been bilingual in the US for at least 10 years is a pretty good sign we're not assimilating people as fast as they are coming in. So in a word, no.

Why does this even matter? Canada has been bilingual for WAAAAY longer than we've been and they haven't collapsed due to having no national identity.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Krazysh0t
I understand what you are trying to say but the plaque is just a poem that won a contest.

The poem is not a contract, not a law, and it is not a free pass.

Well it certainly paints us as hypocrites in this day and age with us trying to kick out refugees and trying to label all border crossers as drug dealers.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
I guess it does if you believe the poem to be more than a poem.

I am sure that it will be viewed by many as an invitation, but that would be those that want to ignore the truth of the situation and those that want to ignore the rules and the laws.

As for us being hypocrites, I will not argue with you about that. The truth is that we are hypocrites when it come to a lot more things than words in a poem.

originally posted by: saint4God

originally posted by: Irishhaf
a reply to: MarkOfTheV

Yes its why I was so thrilled with Trump mentioning trade skills in his state of the union address, we have shoved massive student debt down the throats of people that don't need it for far to many years.

Many citizens growing up here have a choice, either massive debt and less physical labour or little/no debt and a lot of physical labour. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but I would prefer a long-term sustainable job with debt rather than getting injured and unable to work. These are two extremes of the equation, but a simplified version of the message our society sends to young career-minded folk. My father's truism is, "You can work with your mind, or you can work with your back".

Yes and no, a manual labor person will never get far no doubt, but a good carpenter than gets a little lucky can retire as a multi-millionaire. (My grand dad as an example) There are electrician, plumber, carpenter, stone mason all traditional trade jobs.
What I was referring to are the aircraft manufacturing jobs that are going unfilled every year in this country, these jobs are closer to an IT job and they want 18 yr olds will pay kids to go to training schools, and then pay them 6 figures starting out when the training is done.

If I had that option coming out of high school I never would have joined the military, but since the name sounds like a "manual" job people wont even talk to these companies.

We have to deprogram so many people from the idea that every single person in the country must go to college to have a chance at success, and then maybe the cost of college will start to correct itself as new enrollee numbers drop, as students better with their hands move on to trade jobs.