U.S. Government is Shutting Down at Midnight

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

C'mon, lady.

We all know when he said 'wall' he didn't really mean an actual wall, and when he said Mexico will pay for it, he didn't really mean they would. He was speaking in metaphor, or in Trumpian, or something involving grand manipulations of reality, where what he says doesn't mean what he actually says, unless what he says comes to actually pass, then that's what he really meant. Otherwise...

Remember, he a genius. And he speaks so simply he is easily misunderstood.

a reply to: Greven

You are aware that McConnell held this vote to invoke cloture, to prevent a filibuster, but had secured 5 Democrat votes for simple majority passage (because 4 Republicans intended to vote against it), yes?

Who was the Senator who intended to filibuster?

If nobody really intended to filibuster, then this is all a ploy by McConnell for political gain.

Every one that voted against cloture. If no one intended to continue debate, there would have been no vote for cloture, just an acceptance in general to proceed. There would have been an actual vote on the bill.

Cloture is a forced end to the debate time. In the Senate, a Senator is allowed to debate an issue as long as he/she wishes. That debate can be in the form of reading the freakin' New York City phone book (which has actually happened in the past) because there are no rules as to what constitutes debate. That's what a filibuster is: someone keeps talking until the vote fails because everyone gets tired of listening... or in this case, the effective time limit for the bill to pass has passed. So who was still talking? I know Schumer was.

I see no way this could ever be reasonably construed as a ploy by McConnell. Now, if he had tried to stall the vote for cloture, maybe. But he pushed for the cloture vote. The Democratic Senators (minus the 5 you mentioned) refused to shut up and vote. I'm no fan of McConnell, but to try and place blame on him for something Schumer was obviously the major part of is just downright dishonest and shows your blind bias.

Remember that you do not speak for all 400 million Americans. They speak for themselves, and playing deaf, dumb, and blind has never changed what they voted for in the player's favor.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Well, it's kind of obvious what the goal was. DACA is not close to expiring, and both parties say they want it codified and have been meeting to iron out the details. That was the only stumbling block the Democrats objected to: DACA was not included in the budget, because it has nothing to do with the budget.

So, let's do a little comparison, shall we? Democrats can now say

"We stood up to the Republicans and they shut the government down! They're racist, xenophobic, sexist, homophobic bigots who want to have everything their way!"

And then the Republicans can say

"We included every single spending measure the Democrats wanted, and they used Senate rules to not even allow us to vote on the bill to keep the government open. Thanks to them, needy children have lost their health care, our soldiers are not getting paid, and Federal workers are being laid off! And all because they didn't want to openly address a way to help the Dreamers."

Yeah, that's going to go over like a lead balloon for Schumer, especially since Trump has already coined the term "Schumer Shutdown." That one will stick as hard as "Crooked Hillary."

My Dad, rest his soul, used to say, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging." Someone needs to tell the Senate Democrats that. As of right now, less than a year before their highly-anticipated 2018 midterms, we have the following:

• A booming economy, with ever-increasing good news for everyone, especially minorities.
  
• Lower taxes which will become apparent even to the skeptics next month.
  
• A rapidly expanding job market and record low unemployment.
  
• A record-high stock market setting new records regularly in record times.
  
• Hillary Clinton still in the forefront of the Democratic Party, and losing the confidence of voters at a fast pace.
  
• California actually demanding their citizens disregard Federal law.
  
• The lingering images of screaming "NOOOOOO" at the sky because they lost an election.
  
• Rumors of FISA violations concerning the Trump dossier being exposed from Congress, implicating mainly Democrats.
  
• Poor children without healthcare because of a single vote by the Democrats.
  
• Military going without pay because of a single vote by the Democrats.
  
• Continual attempts by Trump to resolve issues with the Democrats on the above two points until the last possible minute.
  
• An admitted cop-killer illegal immigrant in court openly regretting not having killed more cops.
  
• The idea that CNN, NBC, the NYT, and WaPo are "Fake News" becoming viral.
  
• Even the NYT blaming Democrats for the shutdown.
  
• Victories for conservatives in the Supreme Court.

I am seeing nothing - nothing - that will play well with Democrats come November.

What I am seeing is the real concern behind this latest move: desperation. Desperation because the plans of the DNC are falling to ashes before their eyes. The goal of any political party is power, and Trump has been demonized precisely because he directly took on the Democratic power base: he pulled a relatively high minority vote, and in states the DNC thought were safe. He has created a legacy in one short year, whereas Obama's legacy is now threatened by the release of information pointing to corruption in his administration. He is winning the political war at every turn, despite the most blatant and feverish attempts to destroy a man I have ever seen.

Trump's legacy is growing and the DNC will do anything to stop it. They want the wall to be a fading, quashed dream, and they know that Trump has the upper hand because of DACA. They want the economy under Trump to fail, but it is exploding before their eyes. This is a way to try and force a victory: if the Republicans had given in on DACA, Trump would have lost his bargaining chip on immigration reform. If they didn't give in, the government shutdown would slow economic growth. One aspect of Trump's legacy was going to take a hit.

But what they didn't count on was their truly worst enemy: the American public. Hurting the economy hurts the people they need to vote for them. Hurting immigration reform might have not hurt as many people (at least not directly). Trump took the best path for him and his agenda... he let the Democrats shut down the government, hurting as many people as possible directly, and made sure the blame was going to fall on the heads of the DNC. Will this be a trying year? Yes, probably. The economic boon will lessen while this goes on and the specter of another shutdown will loom over business growth until the budget process is fixed. A great deal of the economy is tied to government contracts, which a shutdown affects directly. No one will hire more workers for a contract that can be pulled at any time on the whim of one man, especially if that man has shown he cares nothing about anyone but himself and his personal agenda for power.

But that's one year. Just one. Come next January, a new Congress will be seated and it is looking like the Republicans may well get their needed 60-vote majority in the Senate. Even if they just get close, I am proud to say that Doug Jones actually crossed the aisle and did the right thing, Schumer be damned. I'm actually proud of the boy, despite campaigning hard against him. Let's see if the trend continues... for the first time, I have a little hope for him.

TheRedneck

You are aware that McConnell held this vote to invoke cloture, to prevent a filibuster, but had secured 5 Democrat votes for simple majority passage (because 4 Republicans intended to vote against it), yes?

Who was the Senator who intended to filibuster?

If nobody really intended to filibuster, then this is all a ploy by McConnell for political gain.

You'd better believe it.

Republicans aren't going to let the Dems just put that past the rest of the population.

McConnell exposed them.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Actually, a shutdown occurred under Carter (Democrat) while the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. Not that it really matters. The Republicans have a slim margin in the Senate so they don't really have control. They could only truly claim control if they actually had 60 Republicans in the Senate. They don't.

It amazes me how our laws are created to protect the president and our elected representatives. This president and our politicians are not doing the job they were elected to do. They're all responsible for creating this shutdown yet the law still gives them a paycheck while government workers are furloughed! If these laws were written to make our presidents and representatives accountable, maybe the fire under their feet would be turned-on!

These elected officials also have direct control on deciding if they should limit their term in office, and voting themselves raises! Who in their right mind would vote to limit their jobs and lose their hefty salaries and benefits??? If the American people voted directly to decide on term limits, and if these laws were re-written so representatives paychecks stopped when they can't agree and compromise on a budget, our representatives would feel the fire under their feet and would feel the pressure to listen to the voice of the people.

Our laws need to be changed, and we should all demand stronger accountability from these self-serving representatives.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: worldstarcountry

Jimmy Carter was an abortion. He should have stuck to peanuts. My first election was voting for Ronald Reagan.

Wow.Every day you sink to a new level.I was too young to really grasp President Carter’s Administration.Do I believe he had a failed Presidency?Yes.Do I believe that there were forces working against him?Yes.But to call him an abortion?You should be ashamed of yourself.But I know you won’t be.

when the welfare checks and food stamps don`t get sent out,the democrats in congress will cave and give up on their blackmail attempt to allow illegals to stay in the country.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Being from the UK, you already have a 'wall'... it's called the ocean.

The wall is more than a structure. It is a symbol for border security and immigration reform. It consists of several things:

• A physical structure running from Brownsville to San Diego, with the construction based on the geography and needs of the specific area.
  
• Increased border patrol presence.
  
• Increased border control authority to do their job.
  
• An end to the VISA 'lottery' program.
  
• An end (or at least a serious curtailment) of chain immigration.
  
• An end to 'sanctuary cities.'
  
• An improved work VISA program.
  
• More enforcement of illegal hiring violations.
  
• Better security at ports.
  
• A streamlined and easier merit-based immigration policy.

Trump has spoken of all these things, but it takes a lot of time to specify each and every one of them. So combined, they are referred to colloquially as "the Wall." The wall itself is the most visible, and most obvious physical sign of the changes, so it gets the press.

Now I ask you a question: if I somehow manage to make it to England in a rowboat, and pull it in at a port with no money, no ID, no skills, and no ability to speak that stuff you call 'English,' will you take me in, give me a free home, free food, a free education, and everything I need free for the rest of my life?

TheRedneck

This just in - America is not located nor any oceans.

a reply to: bluechevytree


Welfare and food stamps aren't stopping.


Think about it for a moment.

Some administrations had government shutdowns in the past and they made it as difficult and as painful as they could for the American public.

They did that to force the issue.

They punished the American public for political points.

a reply to: RomeByFire

This just in - America is not located nor any oceans.

This just in... The USA is not completely surrounded by ocean.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Republicans do not have full control of the U.S. Senate.

They do have Committee control because that takes a simple 50%+1 majority.

60% is the magic number for many laws to pass.

Historically, that is a rare event.

The MSM has most people completely hoodwinked.

NO IT IS NOT!

How do you not understand this still with repeated explanation on how things actually work?!?

To pass a bill, all you need is 50% + 1, in either the Senate or the House.

In the Senate, Senators have the ability to debate as long as they want about a question, and up to twice per legislative day on a question. This allows the filibuster to potentially be used.

There were vague alleged threats of using a filibuster against the bill in the Senate, so McConnell tried for cloture (precluding a filibuster). The cloture vote failed, so a filibuster was still possible, but McConnell still could have considered the vote and risked a filibuster.

Mitch McConnell refused and voted no himself once the cloture failed.

Here's the thing though - the filibuster may not have been used - and if it wasn't going to be used - they didn't need 60 votes.

Stop conflating how our system of government works simply because Republicans for the previous 8 years forced cloture votes more than almost every single Congress since the founding of our country combined.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Greven

You are aware that McConnell held this vote to invoke cloture, to prevent a filibuster, but had secured 5 Democrat votes for simple majority passage (because 4 Republicans intended to vote against it), yes?

Who was the Senator who intended to filibuster?

If nobody really intended to filibuster, then this is all a ploy by McConnell for political gain.

Every one that voted against cloture. If no one intended to continue debate, there would have been no vote for cloture, just an acceptance in general to proceed. There would have been an actual vote on the bill.

Cloture is a forced end to the debate time. In the Senate, a Senator is allowed to debate an issue as long as he/she wishes. That debate can be in the form of reading the freakin' New York City phone book (which has actually happened in the past) because there are no rules as to what constitutes debate. That's what a filibuster is: someone keeps talking until the vote fails because everyone gets tired of listening... or in this case, the effective time limit for the bill to pass has passed. So who was still talking? I know Schumer was.

I see no way this could ever be reasonably construed as a ploy by McConnell. Now, if he had tried to stall the vote for cloture, maybe. But he pushed for the cloture vote. The Democratic Senators (minus the 5 you mentioned) refused to shut up and vote. I'm no fan of McConnell, but to try and place blame on him for something Schumer was obviously the major part of is just downright dishonest and shows your blind bias.

Remember that you do not speak for all 400 million Americans. They speak for themselves, and playing deaf, dumb, and blind has never changed what they voted for in the player's favor.

TheRedneck

Oh goody, personal attacks again. You're really bad about doing that. Thanks for the explanation, but I don't need it.

What does voting no on the bill and holding it in reserve buy McConnell?

Explain that.

Also, if you say everyone who voted against cloture was going to filibuster the bill, you are including Republican Senators Rand Paul, Lindsay Graham, Jeff Flake, Mike Lee, and technically Mitch McConnell.

edit on 10Sat, 20 Jan 2018 10:59:54 -0600America/ChicagovAmerica/Chicago1 by Greven because: (no reason given)

a reply to: DBCowboy

You know, I just realized where I saw these kinds of situations before...

Back in elementary school, starting in, I think, the 2nd grade, it was considered 'fun' to slap someone on the back of the head, than when they turned around mad enough to fight, point to the person beside you and look innocent. We outgrew that by the 5th grade or so, of course.

Every once in a while, someone would try it and someone was nearby who would say, "He's lying! I saw him do it!" and of course the fight was on. It always ended the same way: the guy who started it always got the shiitake mushrooms beaten out of him. That's why it stopped by the 5th grade; people got tired of picking their face up off the floor.

The Democrats just slapped the American people on the back of the head, and then pointed to the Republicans and said "He did it!" But this time, they got caught. Now the only question is, will they figure out this was a bad idea after the trouncing they are about to receive from the people they slapped, or do they lack the intelligence to figure out this was a bad idea?

Only time will tell, I guess. I'm curious to find out now.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: SkeptiSchism
a reply to: caterpillage

What assets?

Federal buildings, federal owned land, desks, computers, cars, file cabinets, etc etc

originally posted by: bluechevytree
when the welfare checks and food stamps don`t get sent out,the democrats in congress will cave and give up on their blackmail attempt to allow illegals to stay in the country.

They need to be concerned about people being pissed about not getting their tax returns.

a reply to: TheRedneck

They will run some internal polls to determine what will benefit them the most.

Then they'll get some focus groups, find a sob story about how little Timmy didn't get his porridge because Trump and twist at the emotions of the public.

The media will take it like a football player with the ball and an open field at the fifty yard line.

All we'll see is, "The Drama Of Timmy's Porridge".

People will post threads about how cruel and racist Trump is and speak of the benefits of porridge.


And back-and-forth about porridge.

Until we forget why we're talking about it.

a reply to: DBCowboy

They'll try. But compared to Trump's marketing abilities, the rest of the media will look like 6-year-olds trying to explain quantum physics in 10 words or less. Not that they don't look a little like that already...

I'm watching the funeral of the DNC on CSPAN now...

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: DBCowboy

They'll try. But compared to Trump's marketing abilities, the rest of the media will look like 6-year-olds trying to explain quantum physics in 10 words or less. Not that they don't look a little like that already...

I'm watching the funeral of the DNC on CSPAN now...

TheRedneck

Did the Republican party die when it did the same thing during Obama's tenure?

No you say?

C'mon you said everyone who voted against cloture was going to filibuster, but you forgot that 4 Republicans (plus McConnell at the end) voted against it. Your logic falls utterly apart here - either it's not 'just' Democrats or everyone voting against cloture wasn't going to filibuster.

Worse, you forget another thing - the Senate can change its rules to remove the filibuster with a simple majority.

This is part of the reason why, historically, no shutdown has occurred when all branches of government were controlled by a single party.

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Remember, he a genius. And he speaks so simply he is easily misunderstood.

You mean, he speaks to be misunderstood.

So that he can always say he never said whatever you thought he meant when he spoke to you.

That keeps his options open, and allows him to do anything, regardless of the words coming out of his mouth.

Genius.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: RomeByFire

This just in - America is not located nor any oceans.

This just in... The USA is not completely surrounded by ocean.

But America is.