Mental Illness is a MYTH : Witchcraft and Power Politics in Medicine

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: GeneralMayhem

Again no. Mental health is a thing. You don't have to like it. But it is a quantifiable thing. People respond to treatments.

So what skin do you have in this?

I agree that the mind can have issues that can lead an individual to behave in certain ways and experience unwanted and or uncomfortable thoughts, feelings, etc.

Do you, however, believe we fully understand the human brain and all causation behind supposed perceptual abberations and experiences.

Furthermore, do you believe current treatments are totally optimal and free of side effects, both known and unknown?

a reply to: [post=22925593]Noinden[/post

I have read the book linked. Existentialist works never run with eg

Mental health is a thing. You don't have to like it. But it is a quantifiable thing.

Its more like , fact after fact after fact via justification of said facts.

a reply to: andy06shake

The saddening symptoms of a neglected NHS.

Mental health is getting a lot of publicity these days though, many people are changing their outlook on people who's mental health isn't doing well, coming to terms with diseases of the mind. At the same time though we've got massive "austerity" but the reality has always been that mental illness and wellbeing has been severely neglected for years.

I know a few people who went through the system before I was born, never really treated and had almost non-existent support. They had extremely little support when becoming parents...You can guess what happened over time.

Explaining how austerity now will cost us a bomb in the future is lost on some though, at least we have awareness now huh?

Supporting institutions and charities are closing up shop too, that alternative hope is becoming more and more difficult to acquire.

It's utter madness.

People left at a disadvantage due to illness are basically having to wait years to receive much needed treatment and support. It stands to reason that at some they'll give up trying, seek alternatives and maybe self-medicate.

It'll only get worse I'm afraid.

a reply to: CreationBro

Do you, however, believe we fully understand the human brain and all causation behind supposed perceptual abberations and experiences. Furthermore, do you believe current treatments are totally optimal and free of side effects, both known and unknown?

Thats just it though, that wasnt the premise of the thread, no one can argue its not optimal or free of side effects.

The whole point of this thread was to say that Mental Illness isnt real, period, full stop, so this question is really moot in relation to the OP

a reply to: CreationBro

No we don't understand very much about how the brain works. Many mental health problems, can indeed be traced to physical problems. I've agreed that that one cause. HOWEVER many other ones don't. It comes down to the fact the illnesses are real. Justifying them away as "modern witchcraft" is BS. Also as a pagan, I don't see the problem with witchcraft

a reply to: GeneralMayhem

You don't understand modern science do you? If the evidence suggests something, and you can affect that thing, its a thing. The OP is using circular logic, and other fallacies to justify that he does not like that he has a mental illness.

No offense, but this is remiicent of that South Park, Bloods and Crips episode. The bloods, able bodied from birth, and the crop, being not able bodied from birth.

originally posted by: SailorJerry
a reply to: CreationBro

Do you, however, believe we fully understand the human brain and all causation behind supposed perceptual abberations and experiences. Furthermore, do you believe current treatments are totally optimal and free of side effects, both known and unknown?

Thats just it though, that wasnt the premise of the thread, no one can argue its not optimal or free of side effects.

The whole point of this thread was to say that Mental Illness isnt real, period, full stop, so this question is really moot in relation to the OP

I didnt get that from the OP.

I did find elements of the OP a little short sighted and exaggerative. I did, though, find the concepts of "questioning the psychiatric community" in terms of roots, motives, influences, accuracy, and efficacy, important pieces to this topic.

My last reply with subsequent questions were on topic imho as they highlight the importance of keeping psychiatry and our societal paradigms of "mental illness" in check, in that many seem dead set on a certain mindset regarding mental illness and individuals diagnosed with such...a mindset i personally find lacking in interpersonal compassion, a mindset largely based in ignorance and fear.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: CreationBro

No we don't understand very much about how the brain works. Many mental health problems, can indeed be traced to physical problems. I've agreed that that one cause. HOWEVER many other ones don't. It comes down to the fact the illnesses are real. Justifying them away as "modern witchcraft" is BS. Also as a pagan, I don't see the problem with witchcraft

Lmfao thats great.

I hear you. I agree that mental conditions can be roughly categorized as they are today, they do exist and can be treated to an extent.

What i disagree with are:


-common societal perceptions of mental illness and individuals diagnosed with them.

-the idea that all individuals with mental illnesses have permanent and uncontrollable/irreversible symptoms without constant and life long medication.

-our understanding of psychological conditioning via traumatic experiences, substances, and all causation behind each individuals perceptual experiences.

a reply to: Noinden

Well I'm suspecting the op of copy and pasting at least , and it s fair to poke for./ the original poster. I never said it wasn;t a 'thing' per se , all semantics aside . As before, diverse societal benefits come from the scientific categorisation of various and multiple disorders of the mind and thus there can be improved handling of recognised human vulnerabilities .

a reply to: CreationBro

Except the societal perception of mental illnesses are generally nothing to do with the mental health profession, and are more aligned with media (how often do they wheel out someone in a lab coat to be an "expert" with out proof, looking at you Dr Phil) and politicians . I know a number of psychiatrists and psychologists, so far they have all been sympathetic towards anyone suffering a condition. Seldom do professionals advocate removing people from the general populace permanently.

a reply to: Noinden

"Well the word cult is not inherently dirty, its just following a single leader"

Like the Pope for instance?

"its when that becomes slavish, then when you add money in, its a business, and well hostile takeovers and eliminations of competitors happen"

Sounds like the Vatican's endeavors throughout recorded History really.

Religion and cults are what they are, they are always going to want your monies whilst promising the stars, and not even delivering the Moon.

a reply to: GeneralMayhem

While I don't disagree that can always be an improvement in recognizing human vulnerabilities. This entire thread, is based on whatever the OP posted.

It is like the creationists who post here, every thread is coloured by how they attack science (evolution). Poisoning the well is still poisoning the well, no matter how you look at it.

a reply to: GeneralMayhem

I didn't plagarize.
I did look up a few sources to organize my thoughts and focus them though, so loosely based it on a few other's work.

I'm on my phone I'll respond more shortly.
Good posts btw.

When I read the threads title I immediately thought of Dr. Jeffrey Schaler.

Have you listened to his speech OP?

I read somewhere that many believe that it is the best speech about psychiatry ever written.

The 'mentally ill' card is a tool used for political purposes to silence and suppress the masses who openly express beliefs that contradict official dogma...

The diagnosis of mental illness is always a weapon. Mental illness refers to something that a person does; real disease refers to something that a person has. ~ Dr. Jeffrey Schaler

What do you think psychiatrists would do if Jesus were alive today? Or Buddha? Or Mohammed? Ba-da-bing! Right into a mental hospital, injected with drugs to stop their crazy beliefs and speech. Psychiatrists today are the true Grand Inquisitors. They would crucify the holy men and women of yesterday in an instant. Transcript for Video

Psychiatric confinement of sane people is uniformly considered a particularly pernicious form of repression and Soviet punitive psychiatry was one of the key weapons of both illegal and legal repression.

Punitive psychiatry

Following the fall of the Soviet Union, it was often reported that some opposition activists and journalists were detained in Russian psychiatric institutions in order to intimidate and isolate them from society. In modern Russia, human rights activists also face the threat of psychiatric diagnosis as a means of political repression.

US Veterans Forcibly Sequestered in Mental Hospitals

In China today, political dissidents, whistleblowers and government petitioners are being labeled mentally ill, incarcerated in psychiatric wards and subjected to electroshock—a tactic reminiscent of Soviet Russia and the alliance between psychiatry and the police state. This practice is not limited to Russia, China, Cuba or Uzbekistan, all of which currently employ psychiatric incarceration of citizens for political protest.

In the UK, a specialized unit called the Fixated Threat Assessment Centre has been granted the authority to incarcerate anyone who has given inappropriate or threatening communications to a member of government into a psychiatric ward. The assessment teams are made up of police, psychiatrists and psychologists who have been given the authority to evaluate, accuse and detain anyone they consider a threat into a mental facility -- indefinitely.

“Biological psychiatry is a total fraud.” ~ Fred Baughman

Not only is psychology without merit, but psychiatry defrauds the public as well. Medical psychiatrists have been trying for years to validate their biochemical theory of mental illness, but “after decades of research that has yielded not a single definitive biological marker connecting brain dysfunction to mental disorders,” we are letting doctors evaluate and treat us as if such diseases exist.

To put it more loosely, making a diagnosis of mental illness is “a near mindless act where you can speculate whatever you want and never be ‘wrong’ (if any new or unrelated symptoms emerge just add another diagnosis).” In fact, there is not a single scientific study that shows prescription psychotropic drug users suffer from an objective, confirmable abnormality of the brain.

Psychology and Psychiatry: Rotten to the Core

Op intelligent people do get mental health problems and yes they'd categorise it as a disease.

I think Stephen Fry would be a good example, a person who most people would agree is fairly intelligent. He has suffered depression most of his life and sought to educate himself on the matter. In fact his experiences are well documented as is his opinions on the matter.

So yes, intelligent people suffer mental illnesses.

Howard Hughes? Yeah, we could be here all day or I could just say Sigmund Freud and leave it at that?

Also impairment of the mind can be measured physically too. Depression alone can have a list of physical side effects and it goes beyond simple cause and effect. Because depression itself doesn't always manifest itself physically.

Tbh though depression is a bad example, alone it's just somewhat a symptom and it's easy for a GP to make a judgement and give you some tablets, if you feel better in 12 weeks then the job was a good one.

Some people are predispositioned to depression due to genes, for others it's experience or environment, sometimes it's thought processes that's wormed it's way into consciousness over the years. The triggers themselves are often varied too. Depression is a disease in it's own right because sometimes it isn't a response to you dog dieing or a relationship collapse. Depression isn't a symptom when you have nothing to "get over".

Anyways I'm going to cut this somewhat short as my brain actually is a bit "fuzzy" today, it's a symptom of a relatively more complex thing that effects my well-being. It's something I can effect, I can do this physically, mentally and emotionally... I could argue spiritually too but hey, each to their own. I can eat well, sleep well, socialise well, exercise and generally create an environment to systematically "exterminate" this thing making me "fuzzy" but guess what?

I still get brain farts, I still get aches and pains and sometimes digestive issues.

I guess what I'm saying is depression alone is an illness, it's quantifiable and you can control it, even fight it. I can't just wish it away though, it certainly isn't a developed trait (check my posting history I'm hardly a pessimist) it's somewhat more than a symptom, it's an illness.

See... Couldn't even keep it short could I?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Heck, he has provided medical evidence. Why don't you hold yourself to the same standards when you have been caught out on your anti-Trump rhetoric?

a reply to: Realtruth

And this is why Muzzie says its not empirical science. The Psychiatrist has replaced the Priest/Shaman.
The State utilizes psychiatry as a means of control especially for dissidents

a reply to: Noinden

You say "...societal perception of mental illnesses are generally nothing to do with the mental health profession"

and


"...so far they have all been sympathetic towards anyone suffering a condition."

The mental health profession or psychiatric community has been directly involved in creating these labels and subsequent paradigm.

Yes the media is used as a tool to condition people to believe and feel certain ways about mental illness and the mentaly ill, but claiming that the psychiatric community is completely uninvolved with creating and maintaining the current societal mindset seems like a blatant disregard for the factors at play.

My personal experiences and those of friends and family do not absolutely fall in line with your claim that all psychiatrists and therapists are sympathetic towards those suffering.

Some are great. Some are not.


Finding the right doctor is obviously imperative, but in no way are all doctors equal in this profession.

a reply to: CreationBro

Labels are not the problem.

"I suffer from chronic depression" or "I have Biploar II" are useful. The are accurate (because to be diagnosed with them, you end up with symptoms, which may be treated) What is not useful are "she's f**king crazy" and "he needs to be on Prozac (tm)".

Mind you I am biased, I'm a scientist by profession. I see pasterns, and categorize them. People who wish to defy a category have always been with us. However someone not liking a label does not make that label untrue. It is only a problem when a label is used to persecute someone. Having mental illness (and guess what I have in this very thread said I probably suffer from depression and HAVE suffered from anxiety (its not here now, it might come back)), I own my own conditions. I also suffer from high blood pressure, and gout, gifts from my parents. I could say "I don't want to be labeled with those" except it will only hurt me. Just as denying mental health issues, does not fix them.