Texas Church Shooting : Thread

Johnnie Lagendorff talks about chasing down the killer with the man who shot him with the shotgun.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Dishonorably discharged from the air force.

Under federal law he was in fact prohibited from possessing / purchasing firearms.
18 USC 922

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and

Foxnews is reporting he was dishonorably discharged for several counts of abuse towards his wife and child.

You are aware of the existence of gun shows, correct?

If he paid cash to a used gun seller, well... it's not like they're going to ask too many questions.

Or... his wife could have bought it. Not saying that happened but it is quite possible.

Or a straw purchaser who was perfectly legal to buy as happened in the case of San Bernardino.

I'm guessing this was a P2P sale. There is no legal recourse for him to purchase a weapon otherwise.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Aazadan

In the UK, you treat mental illness. In the US, even most health care plans don't treat it.

I'm getting really damn close to believing there's something in the water in the US that's dumbing us down, and making us more likely to do these things.

and after working for 6 years in a level 1 trauma facility I can say you are wrong and that mental health issues are treated and it is covered.

Then that brings up an even more concerning question. If health care is adequete, and people are still wanting to shoot places up, then we have even fewer ways to prevent that.

You have heard the saying you can lead a horse to water.

While each state as well as federal law allows for certain persons to be able to be involuntarily committed for mental health reasons the requirements to do so are specific. Under our laws an involuntary committal is essentially classified as a civil arrest. The person is read their rights under the law with regards to what they can and cannot do and the courts must be notified within 24 hours that a person is involuntarily detained. A hearing must be held and we go from there.

As with criminal law the person is innocent and it is up to medical professionals to make their case as to why the person in question is a danger / threat to themselves or others and why commitment is needed.

Absent that information there is not much that can be done. We cannot violate their rights.

I work in mental health and work with several people who do 5150 assessments...I was thinking about this, it should be easier to put someone on a 3 day hold to ensure they get the mental health services they need, especially without repercussions. The problem is how do we do this without violating their rights? I don't know what the answer is, but maybe we should also make it easier for people to voluntarily go in for a hold. I also think, contrary to what another poster said, our mental health services are not adequate...

Since we're all playing woulda,coulda.

Maybe the AR came from Fast and Furious.

a reply to: projectvxn

Private to private sales are not covered under the federal or state law.

Only those who hold FFL's are required to comply with the GCA for background checks *at gun shows. Also Texas state law also does not require background checks.

This is the gun show loophole thats been in discussion.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: infolurker

originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Dishonorably discharged from the air force.

Under federal law he was in fact prohibited from possessing / purchasing firearms.
18 USC 922

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and

Foxnews is reporting he was dishonorably discharged for several counts of abuse towards his wife and child.

You are aware of the existence of gun shows, correct?

If he paid cash to a used gun seller, well... it's not like they're going to ask too many questions.

Or... his wife could have bought it. Not saying that happened but it is quite possible.

Or a straw purchaser who was perfectly legal to buy as happened in the case of San Bernardino.

True, but straw purchase in itself is against the law / illegal.

a reply to: projectvxn

No. We're agreed he couldn't legally buy it.

Either he bought it under the table in a completely private sale between two parties or someone bought it for him. Either way, he still wasn't legally able to own it.

a reply to: ketsuko

Or the guy bought it before the courts martial.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Greven

You are aware of the existence of gun shows, correct?

You mean where anyone running a booth must legally conduct a background check and have a 4473 filed for the purchase?

If he paid cash to a used gun seller, well... it's not like they're going to ask too many questions.

Even used guns must be sold using the same laws and regulations as brand new firearms.

That only seems to happen on new firearms in my experience of attending and purchasing firearms.

Your mileage may vary.
(E: speaking of, there's the 'world's biggest gun show' in Tulsa next weekend, it's horrifically crowded and takes all day to go through one side to the other even if you spend only a few seconds looking at the tables)

a reply to: Xcathdra

The problem is that any law on the gun show loophole wouldn't stop what they are actually trying to aim at. If I have a firearm and agree to sell it to you for $20, then I do.

I am for teachers giving a corporal punishment but not to excess! i grew up with it in another country and let me tell ya it works -the fear of god put into you because you didn't learn your spelling words or memorize multiplication tables is motivating to not get a whopping it only happened once or twice but to be sure i didn't let it happen again and now as an adult im an excellent speller!! it did suck at the time but young people definitely NEED discipline its worked since time began
i believe that's one area where we went wrong.

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

originally posted by: Greven

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Greven

You are aware of the existence of gun shows, correct?

You mean where anyone running a booth must legally conduct a background check and have a 4473 filed for the purchase?

If he paid cash to a used gun seller, well... it's not like they're going to ask too many questions.

Even used guns must be sold using the same laws and regulations as brand new firearms.

That only seems to happen on new firearms in my experience of attending and purchasing firearms.

Your mileage may vary.

There are P2P sales. But I seriously doubt an FFL is selling used guns without the requisite NICS checks.

a reply to: ketsuko

$20 bucks ?

What are you selling ?

I'm interested.

a reply to: TheJesuit

Not in favor of it for that reason. If you don't learn what you're supposed to, then you fail.

Corporal punishment, if used in school, should be a thing for bad behavior only.

a reply to: neo96

Cracked Super Soaker?

originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: ketsuko

$20 bucks ?

What are you selling ?

I'm interested.

So am I.

I've seen the legs.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: projectvxn

Private to private sales are not covered under the federal or state law.

Only those who hold FFL's are required to comply with the GCA for background checks. Also Texas state law also does not require background checks.

This is the gun show loophole thats been in discussion.

I understand P2P sales are unregulated.

Regardless of Texas law all FFLs must comply with federal background checks.

a reply to: AnonymousMoose

5150 is California if I am not mistaken. In MO its under RSMO 632- we can hold for 96 hours excluding weekends and holidays.

The person in question would have to do or say something that would make a reasonable person believe that they are a danger to themselves or others. If its not directly observed by someone its extremely difficult if not impossible to hold someone under the law.

as with anything it takes 2 to tango. If the person doesnt cooperate by providing statements against self interest then they walk.

I understand what you are saying however the law only allows so much. When we move beyond that we essentially descend into the 3rd Reich.

As for access to mental health I think the infrastructure is in place however its up to a person to use it. We cant force it in most cases.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: neo96

Cracked Super Soaker?

Meh.

Funny part is.

$20 bucks will get someone an ak over in Afghanistan.

During the old west would got a nice colt.

a reply to: TheJesuit

I'm of quite a different mindset. Discipline is important and children crave it. Corporeal punishment is a different subject. I simply don't believe it is good for a person, or the human race, to use the fear of physical violence to coerce behavior in children. You obviously disagree, as is your right.