Mandela Effect - A Civil Conversation Between Skeptics And Effected

a reply to: Xenogears
Ahh yes.. Seen the one, hadn't seen the South Park one, thank you!!


a reply to: Wolfenz
In so far as Time Travel / Butterfly Effect, how would residue be explained? Everything would of changed all throughout history.

The "merge" theory (time lines or universes) would possibly allow for the residue we see.

originally posted by: Finalized
I also clearly remember "Life IS like a box of chocolates"... The word WAS wouldn't even make sense.

This is a good example of how the Mandela Effect works.

The word was doesn't make sense when you think of this as a quote. As Gump uses the past tense of "told me" it makes sense to say WAS instead of is. It depends how we interpret it.

Momma always told me "Life was like a box of chocolates"
or
Momma always told me life was like a box of chocolates.

I think the majority lean towards the quoted interpretation and make sure the quote is correct when we recall it. It's just a trick our brain plays.

Kinda like remembering "Luke, I am your father" because it is self contained whereas "No, I am your father" requires more processing power to work out the other factors.

It's an amazing insight into how all our minds actually work.

originally posted by: Pearj
a reply to: Xenogears
Ahh yes.. Seen the one, hadn't seen the South Park one, thank you!!


a reply to: Wolfenz
In so far as Time Travel / Butterfly Effect, how would residue be explained? Everything would of changed all throughout history.

The "merge" theory (time lines or universes) would possibly allow for the residue we see.

I think the idea that anything that can exist is digital in nature, and that the universe is a naturally occurring simulation, would solve the issue. No need for quantum mysticism, simple errors in the memory system might lead to inconsistencies. The only assumptions are reality being a digital system and non-perfect memory of the underlying system.

Obviously, changes in geography, logos, movie lines, bible passages, etc would have countless repercussions. But if the memory of the past within the present is digital in nature, corruption of memory(which would represent historical events and records) could occur without creating a logical paradox, as they would occur after the fact, and wouldn't have been there originally, inconsistencies could occur without it being illogical. Like if you take a book and change the words in it, the character names, etc, it doesn't change the original story, but anyone reading it will find it inconsistent after the changes, but as a physical object, memory can have even logically contradictory things written on it, a written contradiction is not logically contradictory at the level of the underlying physical rules(e.g. a book of contradictions is still a physical books obeying physics perfectly fine, and consistently.).

An infj chiming in...

This effect is intriguing.Reading over the thread I hadn't realized that this topic can be so polarizing.Usually, when this has come up in conversations offline, they have been casual ones.Exitt was looking for suggestions other then ME, and I think that's a good idea.I'll use ME for now, please consider giving other suggestions in Exitt's thread.

Where to begin?The topic of false memory has been brought up in this thread.Memory can be faulty.Many moons ago, experimented with this on my own, going so far as to record my own conversations for days at a time.Uncomfortable wasn't the word to describe how different the audio was to what I remembered.(I started doing that as a way to take notes at work, and things got out of hand quickly,lol)The thing is, the commonality of differences reported back seem to suggest to me that this is more then simple false memories.

I learned from this experience and from observing others, that individuals awareness of their inner and outer worlds varies.Hopefully there is a balance, it was an eye opener to say the least.

It's often minor changes that are reported for the most part, but the context and sources are hard to ignore.Specifically the Moonraker scene with the braces, and the lion and lamb verse are just a couple for me.As far as sources, sometimes I spot changes in song lyrics and the recollections of hermits or individuals not plugged into the "matrix" to the same degree.

I haven't explored ME enough to get into any negative feedback.I encountered something similar to the concept, a couple decades back while studying the occult.Imo, the irrational negativity that confronts those expressing their ideas about this may stem from a subconscious suspicion that those effected are questioning the other's integrity.A wise man once told me,"The beauty of being honest, is you will never forget anything."

Back in my teens, I had a small grimoire. It was a more personal one, forgot where I ordered it from.Towards the back of the book, the author was talking about changing history.He suggested that technology couldn't do it, but magick could.This was a while back, I don't remember how explicit he was.

This intrigued me, I know in the past unscrupulous leaders have destroyed libraries and evidence of the cultures they destroyed.In the context of the collective subconscious, I could see the past being lost to memory overtime or through everyone changing their conception of an event moving forward. Castaneda goes into this, writing about erasing personal history.The wizard used the example of a nuclear bomb.It's like the old question if a tree fell in the forest, and nobody heard it.Does it still make a sound?Hence, the wizard's example.So how could that be?

I vaguely recall reading that the concept of memory varies by culture.In general, one thinks of events in the past.I came across someone saying the Chinese had expanded that concept to;memory of past events,memory of past sounds,memory of past thoughts,etc.Basically the idea of good memory, being one of recall on various levels to a high degree.(Physical, mental,emotional,spiritual, inner and outer experience).

Collectively, the reality we experience exists as the totality of the perceptions we share.Individually, expressing itself as the overlap in our awareness with each other. Idk, it's worthwhile looking into Castaneda's writings and legacy to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.Picture one's awareness centered in a sphere, and others too.Then where the spheres overlap is where the exchanges can take place.The concept may sound familiar to those who have explored similar philosophies.

The reason I mention this, in the context of ME has to do with things like song lyrics for example.Somebody can remember something a certain way, but when they sing the song others will hear it.Hearing it as opposed to just existing just in their mind.So maybe two or more layers of manifestation will be involved, adding gravity.On a larger scale, the energy would gain momentum as it spreads out.What I'm getting at is that the energy is charged as more emotion is added.At higher energy levels the effects become more pronounced.I'm using gravity to describe this physically, emotionally it would be integrity.

For the warriors out there, Carlos Castaneda goes into how the concept is used in Tales Of Power.The Seal of Impeccability puts this much more eloquently.Anyways, the power behind the concept exists in different cultures, I think working with integrity is key to the novel effects individuals experience in otherworldly phenomena. I've thought of it as the electricity, ether, or the fifth element as well.

Where i'm at now, it pervades everything, everywhere and exists as a field around living things and to a lesser degree in raw matter.I think energy levels vary depending on ley lines and many other factors.I think that this is the reason that the ME effect has inconsistencies based on the perceiver and their location in time and space.

As for the timing of ME being noticed in the last decade or so, I feel it has to do with the solar system's energy levels shifting as we pass through space.Perhaps those who haven't noticed much ME have just been focusing their awareness differently, or learning different lessons...

I've been perplexed by skeptic behavior with regard to the ME ever since I started looking into it. Check out older ME threads to get the fullest picture (but this thread suffices).

This thread showed me the average skeptic is not the same as the target of my curiosity. I dubbed the new category as the "Anti-ME'er".

The Anti-ME'er has a few patterns:
- Unusual amount of anger with a topic that shouldn't be affecting them.
- Unusual amount of attention for a topic that's 'easily explained'.
- Put words in the mouths of the Effected, take statements out of context.
- Strong focus on a root cause.
- "Carpet bomb" the first few pages, then generally once a page onward.

The patterns seem to have a goal - to persuade the average person against the ME.. If persuasion (gentle or otherwise) aren't working, they default to "Why do you fail to understand memory is fallible?"


This morning it occurred to me that they follow what could be described as a security protocol.

In computing (specifically Linux) there is "SELinux" (rh) and "AppArmor" (deb). These programs are kernel mods who's goal is to stop rouge applications from exceeding permissions. If an application is found out of bounds, they forcibly work to shut the application down.

If you use the "We're in a simulation" theory as to the cause of the ME ('glitch in the matrix'), the Anti-ME'er obviously fits into the security class of applications. It's striking how well it fits in - like those patterns are "signs of programming in organics"...

They want the root cause, so they can focus effort in the most efficient way.. They attempt to solve failed efforts, so they can stop ineffective approaches. When all else fails they "blank out" or crash, and can only muster a default response.

Of course this is the equivalent of "Agent Smith" which sounds hokey - but it makes sense that such applications would exist in a simulation - after all they exist in our computing world now - and many main stream scientists have proposed a simulation theory based on verifiable findings.

I don't know the root cause - but I know the Mandela Effect is real - not perceived. It's only a matter of time until we all know.

originally posted by: Pearj


I don't know the root cause - but I know the Mandela Effect is real - not perceived. It's only a matter of time until we all know.

Not real.

Perceived.

Real would mean actual hard evidence (IE a map with one of the countries out of place.....a capital city marked the way you say.....a jar of mayonnaise with only one n on it.....etc, etc, etc).

So far, we have yet to see any of that.

What we have been presented with is: word of mouth only of what people think they believe in.

That's all it is at this point: A perception....that is faith based.

Just like most religions.

And, like most religions: just because a lot of people (sometimes numbering in the billions) believe in something, with no actual physical evidence......does not mean that it must be true - fact or "real".

Come back with actual proof. Until then: ME is nothing more than a faith based belief system that some people think something special has happened to them.

a reply to: TerminalVelocity

Ahh.. Then we're back to knowledge vs memory.

Do you know how to get to work each day - or do you have to look at a map?

Real - not perceived, and definitely not faith based.


Edit to add:

By your logic, String Theory is a faith based religion.

a reply to: Pearj

Knowing one's route to work, and trying to recall something from the past, are done completely different.

In fact: many take that route to work without even really thinking about it.

I'm sure you have heard of "muscle memory" ?

Performing tasks on a daily routine, to where the task can be done without the mind even needing to provide instruction.

"I could do that in my sleep." - just some of the catch phrases pertaining to exactly what I'm talking about.

Please produce one person from Canberra that does not remember their city being the capital of their country.

The human brain is the worst data recorder we know of. It's why more and more court systems rely more and more on actual physical evidence, because human testimony can be flawed.......even when a person absolutely believes that what they are saying is the stone cold truth, the sad fact is: our brains do not operate like a hard drive file system. They can be tricked quite easily.

Ask any actual scientist if they would completely rely on only human testimony as their factual data for proving something that they will laugh until they have tears in their eyes.

Our brains are capable of amazing feats of memories......they are also capable of completely tripping people up.

Ask anyone who has loved ones or friends that suffer from Alzheimers (I've had several loved ones who have), and what their memories have done to them.

Talk to people who are on meds for some serious brain disorders, what it is like for them when they are off their meds (also have a friend like this......he's a completely different person).

Ask anyone who has simply misplaced something, then found it, who would have bet their life it was where they thought they put it.

Word of mouth testimony is not enough. The brain does not work like a computer, nor does it file memories like one. Our brains are easily fooled in many ways, with sight, sound, chemicals, and many other things.

There is plenty of actual hard evidence of our brains doing this to us.

Absolutely no actual hard evidence that ME (as in - traveled from another universe, dimension, alternate time line, or this one has been changed / manipulated) exists at all.

So yes. For now:

It's all in your head.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I was using BBS s in the 80's too...LOL I was just correcting when the internet, conglomeration of BBS's and common usage of SLIP PPP started...

JAden

originally posted by: tigertatzen

originally posted by: Masterjaden
Please for the love of God, unless you are attempting a pun because of Effect in Mandela Effect, learn the difference and use affect where you should. I get really frustrated reading people's posts that say mandela effected. It would be mandela AFFECTED... affect is a verb, effect is a noun.

Jaden

It was explained quite clearly in the OP that the use of "Effected" here was a play on words. But since you seem a bit confused and that appears to take precedence over the actual thread topic, here's a link explaining how what you so smugly stated above is not accurate either. Cheers.

affect/effect

I can tell you must be a leftist, lol, because your link said pretty much the exact same thing that I stated...

Jaden

a reply to: Pearj

yes, I replied after reading JUST your op though, and in my defense, I DID say unless you were intending it as a pun.

Jaden

a reply to: TerminalVelocity

You got it!

Yes - just like I use Gimp nearly everyday, and my globe is in my line of sight 9 hours a day every day. I drink coke often (and studied the logo), and read the Bible cover to cover (once a day, every day for a year). Etc.. Etc..

You're defacto qualifying me.

I'm sure you have a simple explanation for my 'mental muscular memory' - I expect you to..

I'm sure you have a simple explanation for everyone remembering the the same things wrong - as has already been stated.

I'm sure "residue" can be explained away.

I'm sure people posing as a statue next to the statue can be explained..

..But eventually it adds up.

Until it happens to you, you may not wish to explore it - but others do, and you can't explain away our experience.

It's not in our heads.

So is String Theory a faith based religion?

a reply to: Masterjaden

No worries! I've done the same thing.

a reply to: Pearj

String and M theory has a lot more than just a bunch of people speaking it to support it. Including the math for it.

Nor does it simply rely on someone's memory.

Provide a picture of your globe and that can of Coke with the way you remember it, (RAW image please), and then you have more than just your say so. But until you do: it's just your say so.

Every single ME example does have one thing in common: The human brain and people's memories produced by that brain.

The amazing part of our body that is easily tricked, easily fooled, and can be made to believe almost anything if tricked in to it.

A part of your body that can be tricked into making things look upside down if you were forced to wear special glasses that invert images long enough.

That's the problem with your discussions you see: you discard the idea that ME might be an actual product of people's minds.

You toss it out right away. Before anyone can prove anything, you and others have already decided that one of the most complex parts of our bodies, that can be easily fooled.........should be completely ignored.

You claim to want to have civilized discussion and in depth research into ME......and yet: you completely destroy yourself out of the gate.

1) You don't follow the Scientific Method at all: because you completely disregard any mundane ideas because they don't fit what you WANT to believe in (BUZZZZZ....wrong answer, that's not how science works).

2) You do everything you can to also be hostile to those who do offer mundane answers (ah-ah....doesn't mater who may have thrown the first stone. What maters is YOUR behavior......which I'm seeing as quite aggressive myself in desperately trying to remove any mundane possibilities).

Food for thought.

a reply to: TerminalVelocity

Regardless - String Theory is neither tangibly provable or falsifiable - yet I bet you think it's "more plausible than not". In other words, you accept things that aren't provable.. I'm sure you've got the point by your unwillingness to answer the first time I asked.

I've already made it clear that I'm not talking about misheard lyrics - rather things people see, do or use every day. (You validated that with your muscular memory point).

I've already given the reason I don't think it's bad memory several times - but maybe you could review it so we're on the same page?

1. Historically, there's never been the mass "forgetting" we see today. We aren't talking about misheard lyrics, rather iconic catch phrases, products and geography we use or see every day. 2. All the people "forgetting" seem to forget the same exact things in the same exact way. The odds of that are very low. 3. Knowledge - not flash memory. I am 100% positive the gradient changed on gimp. I know because I've used it regularly for years. I know South America moved because of the globe on my desk. I know the Coke logo changed because I study typography (design logos) and had just been studying the logo before it changed - it had a tilde. I could go on qualifying, but there's no need. I know these things like I know my address - knowledge. 4. Reality residue oddness. Rodin's Thinker (one of) is outside the museum near my home. I've seen it bunches (even where my wife and I had our first date). There are photos of people next to the statue imitating the pose - yet the statue doesn't match. There are photos of people with the caption "Standing next to Lady Liberty" on Ellis Island - yet there's no statue behind them. There are videos of people holding up Braggs to the camera as they read the label - yet the label doesn't say Braggs. 5. Residue flips. Tidy Cats went to Tidy Cat and ME videos were made - now it's back to Tidy Cats and documented. There are websites saying "Houston we have a problem" is incorrect. Entire threads were made and people swore it was "Houston we've had a problem." (using the sites to back them up). Now it's changed back and both the sites and naysayers are confirmably wrong. 6. Biblical prophecy. Christ said there would be no more "signs and wonders" after He left - but that there would be signs and wonders when He was about to return. Reality changing qualifies as signs and wonders. It's prophesied there would be trumpets sounding in the sky - which we've seen in the last few years (what would be interpreted as trumpets to a prophet being given the vision). 7. Corrections... Historically they're everywhere - except where "residue" comes in. Take the case of the 'hard-core star wars fan' - they correct people today in droves - but where were they over the last 20 years? Tons of MMA Kidney Punch videos - but the kidneys aren't there anymore. Same with JFK's car, etc.. Folks come out of the woodwork to say "It's always been a 6 seater!" - but there's no corrections going back (I've searched). In the Time magazine photo of JFK's car, there's no correction saying "This is a replica, the original was a 6 seater." - same with the replica in the museum and the FBI mock up.. There should be a 20 year paper-trail correcting "Luke, I am your father." - but there isn't. Corrections only started a few years ago. There's more to this "lack of backwards compatibility". Take the Arctic. There used to be a landmass, but not anymore. If there's never been a solid mass - why aren't there historical shipping lanes though it? It's a shorter route (costs less) and we've had ice busing hulls for over 100 years. Would the Santa Clause story of evolved around open sea? What about Admiral Byrd, arctic dog sled races, the NatGeo expedition, and the multi-national team that made the trek? I remember those occurring at the north pole landmass. Don't get stuck on the arctic though, the point is backwards compatibility. 8. Recent science provides plausibility. The closest thing we have to a unified theory is string theory, which requires multiple universes. Every particle collision causes entangled pairs which have the unique ability to effect the other faster than light travels (something previously thought impossible). We know now that time can be manipulated via speed through space-time - something also thought impossible. Quantum computing works by doing half the calculation in "another reality". If the tangled pairs we're creating can affect reality here and in "another place" then there is plausibility for the impossible.

Much of your focus is on the cause of the Mandela Effect (surprise), but:
- I've said I don't know the cause.
- I gave my opinion on a possible cause - but said I'm not sure.
- I said I don't think the cause is bad memory and gave reasons (see above, see Rodin photos).
- Nothing in my OP had to do with a cause.

With regard to my "feelings":
- I'm not aggressive - I'm being direct so words aren't minced.
- I'm not angry - Aren't you the one using caps?
- I'm not desperate - Aren't you hanging on my every post?
..That's just from your last post. There's a bunch more times you tell me what I think and how I feel in your previous posts.

I see desperation from you - and that's just being real (not mad or whatever else you think I am). You only have one bad memory argument that's been addressed several times - it's like you have nothing to offer but that - and aren't willing to accept anything else - and aren't capable of entertaining ideas that don't fit your model.

I accept something that's not provable, just like you - and you're going to have to accept that.

See how easily your own points can be applied to you? Is it really a valid point of debate if it applies to both sides?

Just an idea.

I have a theory about Dolly's braces. I KNOW she had them on (well "saw" them is more like it). Others KNOW as well.
So my theory is that it's due to how the VCR and TVs back then were like. Her flashing her pearly white smile could have came through as "shiny", thus unintentionally creating the reason for the scene.

I suspect that memory is stored in different parts of the body.The ability to use gut feelings and my enquiries into the role of mirror neurons suggests there is more to memory then just what's upstairs...

a reply to: Pearj

But you see, you've made a fatal error: you assumed.

You assumed that I completely accept String and M theory.

I think it has a lot of merit, offers some good ideas about the structure of the universe.

Good news is: it doesn't make me worry about whether someone had braces on or not, or where the placement of a hyphen was.

You can repost what you have said in the past all you want. Still does not change the fact that you've just decided to throw out the mundane all because you crave something much more mysterious and strange.

originally posted by: TerminalVelocity

originally posted by: Pearj


I don't know the root cause - but I know the Mandela Effect is real - not perceived. It's only a matter of time until we all know.

Not real.

Perceived.

Real would mean actual hard evidence (IE a map with one of the countries out of place.....a capital city marked the way you say.....a jar of mayonnaise with only one n on it.....etc, etc, etc).

So far, we have yet to see any of that.

What we have been presented with is: word of mouth only of what people think they believe in.

That's all it is at this point: A perception....that is faith based.

Just like most religions.

And, like most religions: just because a lot of people (sometimes numbering in the billions) believe in something, with no actual physical evidence......does not mean that it must be true - fact or "real".

Come back with actual proof. Until then: ME is nothing more than a faith based belief system that some people think something special has happened to them.

Physical evidence of mandela effects, say the exact misspelling, wording voiced, logo change, map change, etc. existing physically as believed by those experiencing mandela effects is what is called finding RESIDUE.

For example there are black and white movies with people quoting the bible saying lion and the lamb.

There are movies FOCUSED on the bible, like book of eli, were they misquote passages, misquoted as remembered by those experiencing the mandela effect.



And what about things like the apollo erroneous correction articles? One would assume, a.) the authors would recently check and recheck the video while writing the articles, b.) would show it to someone else at their office, c.) the audience would correct them at the moment of posting the article, the freaking video attached to the articles on apollo movie correction, forcing them to quickly correct and update the article.

None of that happened.

And again there should be decades worth of correction commentary on the mandela effect, it can't be that tests to check mandela have sometimes shown most of the population misremembers something in the exact same 'erroneous' way, yet they go all their lives without someone correcting them. The internet was with us en masse since the 90s, and even before that there were magazines, books, written commentary. There should as others have said be a history of corrections.

And as said there is not only memory, but what is called residue, physical objects, recordings, etc matching the mandela effect version.

a reply to: TerminalVelocity

Ahh... but you made a terminal mistake. You said I assumed when I said "I bet".

That means "more than likely".

and ta-da! My bet was right.