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Surya 1 and 2 : India's ICBM's

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posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:07 AM
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Forty years ago, the Indian nation was convulsed by fear and eventual humiliation as its army was vanquished by the Chinese People's Liberation Army in a bitter and cold battle in the Northeast.

Forty years later, India has repaired its relationship with the Chinese to some extent, but those wounds have not been forgotten.

Excuses have been thrown up for the military debacle. India was ill prepared; it believed in non-violence; it trusted the Chinese and in 'Hindi-Chini bhai bhai'. Fingers have been pointed, most famously at then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru, defence minister Krishna Menon, and Lieutenant General B N Kaul, who was in charge of the army on India's eastern frontier.

After the war, India claimed that China was occupying about 33,000 square kilometres of its territory in the Aksai Chin region of Ladakh. China claimed that India was occupying 90,000 square kilometres; Beijing claims the entire state of Arunachal Pradesh as its territory.

Forty years later, few know the real story of what happened, what went wrong. Successive governments have refused to release the Henderson-Brooks report that investigated the lapses of 1962.

Though the two Asian giants have tried to mend their relations over the decades, several issues remain unresolved: the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile in India; China's non-recognition of Sikkim's merger with India; the nuclear tests in 1998 by India; and India's allegation that China is arming Pakistan, including the latter's nuclear programme.

rediff.com begins a series that seeks to look at what happened then, and how things have changed since. We will bring you articles and reports offering differing analyses, perspectives, and narratives so that more than a generation later we may learn from our history.


[edit on 21-5-2005 by chinawhite]

[edit on 21-5-2005 by chinawhite]




posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:12 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by chinawhite
i have asked for links and you haven't given one


like i said....go look it up..its right there in the website you just quoted.
go look up BBC sites...they condemn china as the aggressor

i suggest we put an end to this distracting and inflaming discussion before seekerof turns up and closed down the thread


agreed



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:18 AM
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like i said chinawhite i do not wish to pursue this any further(just like india never wanted to pursue war with china). China had captured several indian posts before Oct 12 when neheru made that comment, read my previous post.

The confiscation of history by china

How Nehru let India down


The war was Mao's attempt to demolish India as an alternative democratic model and geopolitical rival to communist China by heaping humiliation on it when it was militarily incapable and least expected to be attacked.

Mao needed no Indian provocation. He was provoked by his own logic to defeat the alternative model that India represented and the ideas and principles that Nehru symbolized.

At the root of the feckless China policy is India's failure to build and exploit leverage. Since the re-establishment of full diplomatic relations following Mao's death, New Delhi has been the initiator of all the peace moves with China, even as Beijing continues to contain India without incurring any penal costs.

How Mao cut India to size


India has had better PM's thanNeheru, the betrayer and quiet honestly the india-china relationship is better than it has ever been after Indian PM Vajpayee launched the peace process and the same was continued by the chinese PM:

China to join Indian anniversary

Indian troops mark China festival

China and India sign border deal

India, China in 'strategic talks'

India and China hold more talks

Anyway peace rules.


[edit on 21-5-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:25 AM
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I JUST WANT TO CLEAR THIS UP.


It was indian agression


On October 12, 1962 Nehru proclaimed India's intention to drive the Chinese out of areas India claimed. That bravado had by then been forced upon him by the public expectations which his charges of 'Chinese aggression' had aroused, but Beijing took it as in effect a declaration of war.



The unfortunate Indian troops on the front line, under orders to sweep superior Chinese forces out of their impregnable, dominating positions, instantly appreciated the implications: "If Nehru had declared his intention to attack, then the Chinese were not going to wait to be attacked".2 On October 20 the Chinese launched a pre-emptive offensive all along the borders, overwhelming the feeble - but in this first instance determined - resistance of the Indian troops and advancing some distance in the eastern sector. On October 24 Beijing offered a ceasefire and Chinese withdrawal on condition India agreed to open negotiations: Nehru refused the offer even before the text was officially received. Both sides built up over the next three weeks and the Indians launched a local counter-attack on November 15, arousing in India fresh expectations of total victory.3 The Chinese then renewed their offensive. Now many units of the once crack Indian 4th Division dissolved into rout without giving battle and by November 20 there was no organised Indian resistance anywhere in the disputed territories. On that day Beijing announced a unilateral ceasefire and intention to withdraw its forces: Nehru this time tacitly accepted.


on october 12th nehru said that india was going to drive the chinese out of "indian" terrioty. a remark like that means there going to attack china. so on october 20th the chinese launch their attack

links
www.stratmag.com...



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
like i said chinawhite i do not wish to pursue this any further. what you have posted in your previous post is true. The reason for the indian failure, despite a potent airforce is still being investigated.

Quiet honestly the india-china relationship is better than it has ever been after Indian PM Vajpayee launched the peace process and the same was continued by the chinese PM:

China to join Indian anniversary

Indian troops mark China festival

China and India sign border deal

India, China in 'strategic talks'

India and China hold more talks





YES

china and india should be friends.


no harm in these comments i post. its just if there wrong i would like to clear them up



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
I JUST WANT TO CLEAR THIS UP.


It was indian agression

on october 12th nehru said that india was going to drive the chinese out of "indian" terrioty. a remark like that means there going to attack china. so on october 20th the chinese launch their attack

links
www.stratmag.com...


Just setting the facts right , it was not indian aggression; china attacked far before oct 12, 1962 and captured large areas of indian territory from india's unprepared army, this prompted those words from neheru.




On 25th August 1959, around 300 Chinese troops crossed into Longju region of the Subashin Frontier division and captured an Indian post. In both cases the Chinese heavily outnumbered Indians.

At 8 A.M on 8 September 1962, about 600 Chinese soldiers crossed Thagla Ridge and surrounded Dhola post. The Chinese had chosen the spot and the timing well: Thagla Ridge, which overlooked the key Chinese garrison at Leh, was an exceedingly remote area with terrain that was not conducive for troop movement.

Further, it was a Saturday and it would take a long time for the information to reach Delhi along the chain of command.


Anyway it was 40 years back. No point brooding over split milk.

We need to consolidate in the future; Here's some rocking news :

India, China set to dethrone US

Trade powers India-China ties

Indian army chief visits China

Chinese Army chief to visit India


China PM lauds India agreements

Both countries also set a target of increasing their annual trade to $30bn by 2010.

"India, China are brothers," Wen Jiabao told journalists in Delhi on Tuesday.

"We want to elevate the strategic relationship."

During a visit to Bangalore Wen Jiabao said, with India's strength in software married to China's hardware skills, the two could launch the "Asian century" of information technology.

As part of Monday's agreement China formally recognised the tiny state of Sikkim as part of India.

Until now, China had never recognised India's 1975 annexation of Sikkim.



It may be noted that India has a Memorandum of Understanding with Chinese National Space Agency on cooperation in the application of space for peaceful uses. A team from China has visited India and an Indian team visited China earlier to share the experiences of both the countries and to identify areas of cooperation in the application of space technology.
The visit of Chinese Premier today is expected to provide further impetus to explore further areas of cooperation in the area of space applications.
www.isro.org...



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy


Just setting the facts right , it was not indian aggression; china attacked far before oct 12, 1962 and captured large areas of indian territory from india's unprepared army, this prompted those words from neheru.



On 25th August 1959, around 300 Chinese troops crossed into Longju region of the Subashin Frontier division and captured an Indian post. In both cases the Chinese heavily outnumbered Indians.




yeah spilt milk

yeah we attacked in 1959 only after india enter chinese terrioty

they even attack beyond the area they claimed



In August 1959, Indian armed forces crossed the McMahon Line in the eastern sector and invaded and occupied Longju and other areas north of the line; and in October 1959 Indian armed forces crossed the traditional boundary in the western sector as well. In the course of the invasion, Indian armed forces provoked sanguinary border clashes at Longju and Kongka Pass.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 07:32 AM
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Hence, three further meetings between officials of the two countries in Beijing, New Delhi, and Yangon from June to December 1960 failed to yield results.

In the following years of 1961 and 1962, the sincerity for conciliation demonstrated by the Chinese government during talks between the prime ministers was taken by the Indian side to be an indication that China was weak and could be bullied, and China's unilateral halting of border patrols was taken as an opportunity to be seized.

Indian troops adopted a "forward policy" by making repeated inroads into Chinese territory. They soon established a total of 43 outposts encroaching on Chinese territory in the western sector prior to the general outbreak of clashes. Some were set up only a few metres from Chinese posts, other even behind Chinese posts, cutting off their access to the rear.

In the eastern sector, Indian troops crossed the illegal McMahon Line, intruded into the Che Dong area north of the line, and launched a series of armed attacks on Chinese frontier guards. Thus, before the full-scale border conflict broke out, the Indian side had already created an explosive situation in both the eastern and western sectors.



On November 7, 1959, China's Premier Zhou Enlai wrote a letter to Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru proposing that both sides withdraw their armed forces 20 kilometres from the Line of Actual Control along the entire Sino-Indian border and halt patrols.

The LAC referred to coincided with the traditional boundary in the western and middle sectors except for the parts of Chinese territory that India had invaded and occupied; in the eastern sector, it coincided with the illegal McMahon Line except for Khinzemane, which was then still under Indian occupation. Premier Zhou also proposed that the prime ministers of the two countries discuss the boundary question.

But the Indian government rejected these proposals. On November 16, 1959, it put forward a counter-proposal, suggesting that all Chinese personnel in the Aksai Chin area of China's Sinkiang withdraw to the east of the line that India claimed to be the international boundary, and all Indian personnel in this area withdraw to the west of the one that China claimed to be the international boundary.

Since Indian personnel had never actually come into this area, the Indian proposal was tantamount to demanding the unilateral withdrawal of Chinese personnel from vast tracts of their own territory. This was obviously rejected by the Chinese government.



Despite that, Beijing maintained maximum self-restraint. Chinese frontier guards were ordered not to fire the first shot in any circumstance, nor to return fire except as a last resort. Beijing also sent protests and warnings to the Indian government, declaring that it would never accept the Indian encroachments and firmly demanding that India evacuate Chinese territory. It also reiterated its efforts to seek an improvement in Sino-Indian relations and a peaceful settlement of the boundary issue through negotiations.


i got this from a chinese website .....BUT stealth spy also got his info from here



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 01:12 AM
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The indian forward posts attacked the territories that china took over from inida with its offensive propaganda campaign for the liberation of Ladakh , Sikkim from India.



The war was Mao's attempt to demolish India as an alternative democratic model and geopolitical rival to communist China by heaping humiliation on it when it was militarily incapable and least expected to be attacked.

Mao needed no Indian provocation. He was provoked by his own logic to defeat the alternative model that India represented and the ideas and principles that Nehru symbolized.



China first occupied large parts of indian land and when indian forward posts attempted to get it back, china dubbed it as indian aggression and used it as a pretext for the war it launched when indian leaders were visiting foreign nations, and when the indian army was ill prepared for the ordeal. Zhou Enlai had assured Neheru that china would not engage in a war 4 days before it launched the major war.

Tell me :

Who launched the major attack in 1962 ?

Who invaded and annexed tibet to initiate everything ?

Why would india pursue war with an incompetant army ?

If india wanted war with china, why would'nt it use its superior airforce ?

Why would the USSR, also communist at that time condemn china as the aggressor and ask it to withdraw ?

Why would USA, UK condemn china as the aggressor and start supplying stuff to india ?



[edit on 22-5-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
and blue water navy??? i would hardy call it a green water navy. aircraft carriers dont make a blue water navy you need a whole fleet of supply vessles and a lot more ships. A blue water navy is a navy that can project power a long way from there home bases and stay there. i doubt that indias navy would last long in the pacific. or atlantic.


will someone explain what a green, red, brown, yellow, etc navy is ??

Ever heard of india's INS Vikramadithya ??

Its a power projection aircraft carrier, which take on a ground based force too.

It can carry a maximum of latest 34 Mig-29K that india has ordered for. It will also carry the E-2C Hawkeye AWACS, in addition to several Russian helicopters.







This aircraft was gifted by Russia to India free of cost as a sign of freindship and because russia could'nt afford to maintain it.

While the aircraft carrier itself is coming for free, a substantial refit will be undertaken to bring the vessel up to modern naval standards. The cost for this refit is estimated to be in the region of $675 to $700 million. A related $740 million contract for 16 carrier-based MiG-29 aircraft has also been signed.

An option to acquire 30 additional aircraft(Mig-29 K) by 2015, is also included in the contract. The vessel will also carry a mix of Ka-28 ASW helicopters and Ka-31 AEW helicopters.

The conversion plans for the aircraft carrier would see all the armament, including the P-500 Bazalt cruise missile launchers and the four Antey Kinzhal surface-to-air missile launchers fitted on the front of the carrier, removed to make way for a 14.3º bow ski-jump. Two restraining stands will also be fitted, allowing combat aircraft to reach full power before making a ski-jump-assisted short take-off. The ability to launch only one aircraft at a time, might prove to be a hindrance. Under the modernization plan, the 20-ton capacity elevator beside the ship's island superstructure will remain unchanged, but the aft lift will be enlarged and its lift capacity increased to 30 tons. Three arresting gears would be fitted on the aft part of the angled deck, although the model (centre image) displayed above shows four. Navigation and carrier-landing aids would be refitted to support fixed-wing STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) operations including the LAK optical-landing system.

Gorshkov will carry several PJ-10 Brahmos's.













It will arrive in late 2007 or early 2008 after refit.



India's indegenous aircraft carrier



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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According to global security:

R Vikramaditya
[ex-Gorshkov]
Aircraft Carrier
The exAdmiral Gorshkov is expected to be handed over to the Indian Navy in August 2008. There are reports that the vessel will be renamed as INS Vikramaditya, though this in not confirmed from official sources.

Chandragupta II (380 to 413 AD) tried to be better than his father Samudragupta, and most historians agree, he was certainly successful. Vikramaditya is THE LEGENDARY emperor of India. More stories/legends are associated with him than any other ruler of India. It was during his (and his son Kumargupta) reign, India was at the pinnacle of prosperity and opulence. Although named after his grandfather Chandragupta, he took a title of Vikramaditya, which became a synonym for sovereign of tremendous power and wealth. This title was later taken up by scores of other sovereign rulers of India.

Vikramaditya succeeded his father Samudragupta (possibly there was another prince, or his elder brother who ruled briefly, and according to legends slayed by Shakas), and carried on the policy of `world conquest' of his predecessors. Vikramaditya's reign was perhaps THE most prosperous and progressive reign in the ENTIRE Indian history. The

Negotiations between Russia and India began in 1994 for the sale of the Admiral Gorshkov, which had been inactive since 1991. In 1998, India and Russia agreed in principle on the sale of the Admiral Gorshkov. India would get the hull for free, but would finance the refurbishing of the warship by Russia's defense industry.

On 11 January 1999 Indian Minister of Defense George Fernandes acknowledged that agreement had been reached on the sale. But it took another five years to work finalize a price and terms. The Gorshkov reportedly would be extensively modified at a cost of between $500-650 million to accommodate conventional take-off and landing aircraft [possibly either the Su-27K Flanker-D or the smaller MiG-29K Fulcrum-D]. The refit would include addition of a bow ski-jump take-off ramp, and removal of the missile launchers to make room for the ramp. The refit at Severodvinsk was expected to take up to three years. As of early 2001 negotiations continued, with Russia offering to donate the ship itself if India paid the conversion costs [which India was reluctant to do]. By late 2000 India had rejected the Russian offer of 22 new MiG-29K shipboard fighters, which remained unproven for naval service.

On 20 January 2004, it was announced that India and Russia had signed a $1.6 billion deal finalizing the sale of the Admiral Gorshkov to India. According to the deal, half of the money would spent at the Northern machine-building factory in Severodvinsk, to refurbish the carrier with the other half being spent on MIG 29-K fighter jets and anti-submarine helicopters. When the ship was part of the Soviet fleet, it used vertical take-off aircraft. Now it will use MiG-29K planes, and the deck must be refurbished to accommodate the installation of a landing strip and a catapult. The rest of the money is going to the acquisition of 16 MiG-29K fighter jets, and up to 10 helicopters that can fit onto the ship. Gorshkov is slated to join the Indian navy in 2008 after a refit. The Navy looke at equipping the carrier Gorshkov (INS Vikramaditya) with the E- 2C, but decided not to.

The navy agreed to buy the Russian aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov, for a nominal fee. But it requires a $670m refit and will eventually have between 18 to 20 Mig 29 fighters which will cost in excess of $1bn. Gorshkov, which is slated to join the Indian navy in May 2008 after a refit.

The conversion plans for the aircraft carrier see all the armament, including the P-500 Bazalt cruise missile launchers and the four Antey Kinzhal surface-to-air missile launchers fitted on the front of the carrier, removed to make way for a 14.3º bow ski-jump. Two restraining stands will also be fitted, allowing combat aircraft to reach full power before making a ski-jump-assisted short take-off. The ability to launch only one aircraft at a time, might prove to be a hindrance. Under the modernization plan, the 20-ton capacity elevator beside the ship's island superstructure will remain unchanged, but the aft lift will be enlarged and its lift capacity increased to 30 tons. Three arresting gears would be fitted on the aft part of the angled deck. Navigation and carrier-landing aids would be refitted to support fixed-wing STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) operations including the LAK optical-landing system.

The eight boilers are being renewed and converted to take diesel fuel instead of furnace fuel oil and modern oil-water separators as well as sewage treatment plant are being incorporated to meet international standards. She is also being fitted with six new Italian-made Wärtsilä 1.5 MW diesel generators, Global Marine communications system, Sperry Bridgemaster navigation radar, a new telephone exchange, new data link and IFF Mk XI system.

Hotel services are being improved with new water-producing plants as well as York International refrigeration and air conditioning. A new galley is being installed together with improved domestic services and accommodation for 10 female officers.

Though the official expected life span of the ship is 20 years, experts suggest it could actually be a minimum of 30 years from the time of commissioning. On completion of the modernisation, 70 per cent of the ship and its equipment will be new and remainder will have been refurbished.


After the adding on of the ski jump, there won't be any space for the construction of any VLS or self defence except for CIWSs and no SSM will be added because the space for SSMs are used up by the ski jump. Is global security incorrect? or is the picture misleading? And globalsecurity has a different hand-over date of August 2008.



[edit on 22-5-2005 by COWlan]

[edit on 22-5-2005 by COWlan]



posted on May, 22 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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I think the pic posted by stealth was hinting towards modifications that incorporate such defenses..




Nevertheless a blue water navy India is..



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 12:07 AM
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Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov)
Will be refitted in Russia with provision for helicopters and MiG-29K aircraft at an additional cost of around $675 to $700 million. The deal to acquire the aircraft carrier, was signed between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov and then his Indian counterpart, Defence Minister George Fernandes on 20 January 2004 in New Delhi.

The deal in addition also consists of separate contracts for new shipboard weapons and technology.

The conversion is reported to be progressing at a swift pace well ahead of the schedule.

The Russians have promised to hand over the Capital warship to the Indian Navy in late 2007.

from www.indiadefence.com...



India is also making its indegenous aircraft carrier, ADS which will also have power projection capability


The 37,500-tons aircraft carrier (Air Defence Ship) is to be built at Cochin Shipyard. The carrier is being designed to operate a mix of twelve MiG-29K, eight Naval-LCA Tejas or Sea Harrier fighters, ten ALH Dhruv and Kamov-31 helicopters.

It is only after 2012, with both Vikramaditya and ADS operating on the high seas, that the Navy will explore the option for a "follow-on" carrier to be built indigenously.

The 252-metre-long ADS, for which the government sanctioned Rs 3,261 crore in January 2003, will have two runways with ski-jumps and a landing strip with three arrester wires. The flight deck will roughly be 2.5 acre.

Powered by four LM2500 gas turbines generating 80 MW, the carrier will be able to attain a maximum speed of 28 knots and be operationally deployed for 45 days at a stretch.

source
and here




Indian Navy Sea Harrier Fleet Upgrade

The Navy Sea Harrier fleet is to acquire Beyond Visual Range (BVR) engagement capability in conjunction of Israeli EL/M 2032 radar and Derby BVR missiles, formidable even in close range.
source




Bhramos launchers



India are also getting scorpenes >> www.indiadefence.com...




posted on May, 23 2005 @ 01:14 AM
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wheres that quote from about mao???

china never occupied indian terrioty. the McMahon Line was NEVER signed or agreed with any chinese government.

1 month before china lauched the attack india already attacked chinese forward post. then chinese forces attacked the indians and drove them back.

then neheru odered indian forces to "free" indain land. then on On October 14, then Indian defence minister Krishna Menon called for fighting China to the last man and the last gun. that was clearly asking for war.....



But when I began to look at the details of the Sino-Indian frontier dispute a totally different picture emerged.

In the NEFA, China seemed tacitly to have accepted the Indian claim and the fact of Indian occupation, even though this meant the loss of a very large and valuable territory populated by Mongoloid people and which in the past had clearly belonged to Tibet. It had come into Indian hands only as a result of British expansionism during China's period of historical weakness, a fact firmly suggested by the very name of the frontier Beijing had tacitly accepted as the line of control --- the McMahon Line.

In the central sector there seemed to be little to contradict Chinese claims to the small pockets of territory being contested. In the western Aksai Chin sector the Chinese claim seemed overwhelming --- the facts that most of the land lay on the Chinese side of the watershed, that China had built a badly needed road to connect Tibet with Sinkiang through the barren landscape without New Delhi even realising it, and that the population even on the Indian (Ladakh) side of the 'line of control' border was Mongoloid and Tibetan Buddhist.

When thanks to Alastair Lamb's important book, The China-India Border, I discovered that the Indian claim was based on serious distortions of 19th century British-Chinese documents, I was amazed by the seeming vehemence of New Delhi's very weak claim to the territory. (Distribution of Lamb's book was banned in India at the time.)

Even more disturbing was New Delhi's demand that China evacuate the entire territory before there could be serious border talks.

In short, it was obvious that Beijing was preparing for a very reasonable compromise settlement to the frontier dispute, namely giving up the NEFA claim in exchange for India accepting China's Aksai Chin claim.

This would leave India in control of by far the most valuable piece of territory, namely the NEFA. That India seemed to want to reject this very generous solution seemed most unreasonable. The Nationalist government in Taiwan was already criticising Beijing for being willing to abandon historical Chinese territory in the NEFA.


www.gregoryclark.net...

Now tell me.

China launched the major attack because of indian aggressioin.

china didn't invade tibet we reoccupied it.

India persued the war because of there forign policy. Go research it.

Neheru didn't want to use there technically superiour airforce because he didn't want to widen the war.

The USSR didn't condem china??? after 1960 there was a spilt in the communist partys in the world. Mao wanted a more harsh approch and russia wanted a peacful co-exstence.

Of course USA and UK comdemed china. one thing is that USA and China had no depolmatic relatioins and it was in the most harshs bits of the cold war. one year beforee the world nearly ended in cuba



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 02:28 AM
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stealth spy you said has a blue water navy.. yes you did

now let me see

CARRIERS 1

DESTROYERS 11

FRIGATES 9

CORVETTES 16

PATROL/COASTAL CORVETTES 17

have to patrol 7,000 km of coastline.


The Indian Navy top brass, however, has given great importance to aircraft carriers in its overall naval strategy. Gorshkov, with a sea endurance of 30 days and the capacity to carry more than 2,000 sailors and officers, is perceived as a real force projector for the country. Once it is refurbished, Gorshkov will come with 16 MiG-29K aircraft and six Kamov KA-28 choppers. The MiG-29K has a range of 2,300 km. The Indian Navy's blue water aspirations have received a boost as it now has the capacity to put a carrier task force as far as the South China Sea and the Persian Gulf. Naval strategists point out that India sits astride two "choke points" for global oil supplies - the strait of Hormuz on its west and the Strait of Malacca in the east



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov)
Will be refitted in Russia with provision for helicopters and MiG-29K aircraft at an additional cost of around $675 to $700 million. The deal to acquire the aircraft carrier, was signed between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov and then his Indian counterpart, Defence Minister George Fernandes on 20 January 2004 in New Delhi.



wtf only 700mil .


china could have brought one if it needed it. china buys a sov for 425mil..

china also got a offer from france to get a carrier free but then france upgrades the electrics.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 05:12 AM
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now you seem to say india provoked china into the war.
dose'nt that mean china started the war.

sure there were some firings from both forntlines, can that be dubbed as starting a war ?

There was indian firing because china had rundown into several kilometers of indian territory.

China then claimed that the territory that it was now in control of was its own rightful territory !

Indian frontlines obviously had to fire at the chinese in retaliation who were pressing ahead.

Then china used this as a pretext to launch a major war.

Infact china had run in several miles into india, before Oct 20, which prompted Neheru and Krishna Menon to say that india would fight.
Read this :


On 25th August 1959, around 300 Chinese troops crossed into Longju region of the Subashin Frontier division and captured an Indian post. In both cases the Chinese heavily outnumbered Indians.

At 8 A.M on 8 September 1962, about 600 Chinese soldiers occupied Thagla Ridge and surrounded Dhola post. The Chinese had chosen the spot and the timing well: Thagla Ridge, which overlooked the key Chinese garrison at Leh, was an exceedingly remote area with terrain that was not conducive for troop movement.



Although india had every right and would be justified if it launched a war on china, india did not do so.

But it was China that launched into a major war making further inroads into india.

Your claim that Neheru did'nt use the superior indian airforce just because he did'nt want to widen the war is utterly laughable.
It was more a reflection of his belifs in non-violence. Despite the fact that india was losing the war, neheru refused to carry out air strikes.

Why do you think indian would launch into a war with an incompetant army ?

reoccupied it......And when was tibet ever a part of China ??? When did India invade tibet ????
Look a few pages back and a fellow chinese member refuses to accept tibet as part of china before it invaded it.

The chinese invasion of tibet, was the root cause of initiating tensions.

Which country made the major attack first ?

The quote about Mao is from the same website you have posted from. I have even given a link to that article in my previous post.

The designs of Mao wereclear. Why else did China make way so deep into india ?

And China withdrew form all the Indian territories it had occupied, because nations that were communist, democratic, dictatorships, even islamic nations condemned it as the "Asian aggressor" and because of its own guilt of starting a surprise war against a state that was unprepared for it at that time.



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
china could have brought one if it needed it.


how can you buy something that Russia never offered you



china also got a offer from france to get a carrier free


any credible sources ??



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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Aircraft Carrier

China was reportedly offered a AC by Russia but rejected it for a variety of geopolitical and military reasons.

The main reason was probably that getting a AC would alarm the region and run contrary to China's "peaceful rise" strategy. You can't convince the world that a AC is for defensive purposes, it's impossible.


Tibet

Tibet was administered as part of the Qing dynasty, if you go google up maps of the Qing dynasty, you will see it as part of it's territory. In fact, the founder of the Republic of China, Sun Yat-Sen was the one that saw foreign meddling in Xinjiang and Tibet and started his revolution mainly because of that. (that and Hong Kong, Taiwan, parts of Siberia, etc, etc, etc).

The current PRC is not occupying any territory that was not part of the Qing or the subsequent Republic of China, i would be happy for anyone to prove this statement in bold wrong.

In fact, China has lost territory from the Qing dynasty.

1. Outer Mongolia for Stalin's help in fighting the Japanese.
2. Parts of Siberia due to the 8 colonial powers pillage of China.
3. Hong Kong and Macau (now regained).
4. Taiwan to the Japanese in 1895 after losing a naval battle, regained by the ROC after WW2.

[edit on 23-5-2005 by rapier28]



posted on May, 23 2005 @ 06:17 AM
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hell with thtat kind of logic we start a whole new polenesian republic!!REclaim all the poleynesian lands!!
And while you're at it..Give back Australia to the aborgines, new zealand to the maoris and the US to the native american indians..

You cannot lay claim to somethingbecause an empire "once" ruled over it half a century ago..


With that logic wars could be started on such territorial claims at many places all around the globe..
There exists a state of "status quo".. at any time.. things are left as they are, unless ALL relevant parties have concensus on future actions..

[edit on 23-5-2005 by Daedalus3]






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