Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Itisnowagain

It might all be one big cosmic joke for all we know Itisnowagain.

It is!

If God is all powerful then why is he nothing more than an absent parent at best?

The thing is you think you are a person and you think God is a person. God is all there is and there is no you - this that IS is God. There is not separate things doing things. There is just this that is - life/reality is not made of two or more.

Why bestow freewill on his apparent creations yet also claim predestination over them?

There is no freewill for individuals because there is nothing divided - this is what there is - what is happening is it.

a reply to: Andy1144

Sometimes I like to punch things when I play video games that frustrate me, and sometimes I Just say "done" and turn off the playstation and walk away.

If there is no free will then why do I get multiple choices? another example is the good ol' gossebumps choose your own adventure books. Many people choose a different outcome so if there is no free will then why bother giving readers a choice?

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
If there is no free will then why do I get multiple choices?

There are no choices and no chooser. There is only ever what happens!
If walking away from the console happens then that is what happens. The idea that there is a choice also just happens.

a reply to: Thecakeisalie

Those choices may only appear to be there.

The reader may appear to have choice simply to create the illusion of a better Zoo.

Consider without freewill or the illusion of such the universe really is a terrifying prospect and you are nothing more than a slave to existence.

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Andy1144

Sometimes I like to punch things when I play video games that frustrate me,

It is not that you choose to punch things - frustration happens and lashing out and anger happens.

originally posted by: andy06shake

Consider without freewill or the illusion of such the universe really is a terrifying prospect and you are nothing more than a slave to existence.

You may think that you are a slave but really you are the witness of an awesome show!

originally posted by: Andy1144
To assume there is a special entity which can make a decision completely free of any circumstance makes absolutely no sense and as said above, is almost equivalent to a cult like belief.
Every decision we make is being made by a very complex process of synapses, electrical signals ect, over which we obviously have no control of. Show me where we're free to make a decision completely free from physical conditions? It's impossible. .

I guess I still am a computer scientist at my age even if I don't do the things I used to...

Lets explore your quote a bit deeper because I explored such ideas when I was learning about Artificial Intelligence, more specifically machines and software that could act out complex responses to simple inputs i.e. making choices based on what actions they had available (and maybe creating new ones based on further rules and information).

The human brain, when looked at mechanically is just a machine, one that is organic and biological in nature but like the rest of our bodies it is a machine that functions at an incredibly complex level.

To quote you again: "very complex process of synapses, electrical signals ect, over which we obviously have no control of"

Actually we do but that's another hot topic and not for this particular thread (bio feedback and influence). We may just be machines that have access to large amounts of information store, the data of which we can act on and perform complex analysis and inference operations to determine our actions.

But before an action there is intention and when that intention is acted out, it becomes an "act of intention" do you understand?

This intention is what people past and present, religious and/or spiritual relate to, some claiming its "divine inspiration" that drives them while others understand this inspiration to be a result of some complex inference that occurred in their mind while there are others that have an awareness that their intention came from somewhere outside of their minds (or at least that's what they believe).

Then you have belief. To act on an intention we have to believe that we are able to do so in the first place hence the word belief (you need to look at the root meanings of things) and when someone acts out an intention, they are exercising their belief of that thing - does that make sense?

We can and probably will build machines that display complex interactions but they may well be soulless because that thing we call the "soul" is a part of us that exists outside of us, maybe we project it in that way, but its able to tap into something more or its simply a case of belief after all half of anything is believing in something (even if you don't believe in anything, that in itself is a belief system).

Now we can take it further and say that some of us worship or beliefs, those beliefs can come from our base desires or some higher inspiration but either way they determine who we are and what we do in life, they drive us, our motivators.

Free will then can be see as a matter of choice - when we determine one or more actions, we then present ourselves with choices, from those choices we select an action and we act out that action creating more opportunities and presenting more choices, ad infinitum.

Simply denying it (free will) as you suggest is a sign that we are not taking responsibility for our choices. Yes the way we grow up, the "trauma" we incur throughout our daily lives (being forced to conform constantly) may well have an impact on our being and our ability to make choices and thus "exercise our free will" but still we do essentially determine our own fate by doing so.

Now some of us may well limit our choices, by our actions, or some prior trauma as suggested above or simply out of ignorance (like most of ATS lately) but then some of us do expand our choices through learning, accepting, understanding and denying ignorance (like a handful of people on ATS now unfortunately) so the types of intentions that form within us may well be shaped by the number of choices available (see my point earlier about 'choice'..) where someone with limited choices will only be able to act out on a handful of intentions and they may well be the wrong ones (like a criminal or a murderer).

Free will then may well be about what intentions we form, what choices we create and what actions we take which shape our fate going forward.

Peace.

a reply to: Thecakeisalie

What if we simply didn't play the game anymore? Instead of accepting what choices we are given we decide to create our own (by creating an environment to produce opportunities of choice)?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

This is a counter quote for everything you throw out there. This simply you attempting to prove your beliefs to someone who doesn't agree with you. It is not a argument you can win. In order to win, you have to have an opponent who is open to your beliefs.

"God is not willing to do everything, and thus take away our free will and that share of glory which belongs to us." Niccolo Machiavelli (Machiavelli was not a christian but a writer who dipped into very non-conformist thinking)

Quotes are just quotes until put into action. Philosophy definition is:

"a (1) : all learning exclusive of technical precepts and practical arts (2) : the sciences and liberal arts exclusive of medicine, law, and theology (3) : the 4-year college course of a major seminary

The very definition of Philosophy is void of all provable data. I choose to believe in data, not speculation.

Read more at: www.brainyquote.com...

a reply to: ConstitutionalPatriot
'Man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot want what he wants' - may well be a quote but it means that you cannot choose preferences.
Can you choose who you find attractive? Can you choose which foods you prefer?

In order to win, you have to have an opponent who is open to your beliefs.

It is not about winning - it is about finding out what is true. Of course if ones only desire is to win then one will not be open to anything but making the other wrong and not losing. How can one look honestly at what is being presented if one just uses belief?
The real scientist observes what is going directly.
Is there anyone 'in there' deciding which thought will appear next? Can a thought be known prior to it's arising?
It is impossible to know what thought will appear next so is there really someone 'in there' choosing?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Must be like a Truman show then, and for sure you or i cannot change the channel.

The question begs however, if that's the case who or what is watching/directing this show?

Let me guess we are directing the show and we are all part of the whole?

Somehow i imagine our reality is infinitely more complex.

originally posted by: andy06shake
Somehow i imagine our reality is infinitely more complex.

The imagination imagines all that is not - and that is a lot!!
What there is cannot be imagined.

Nothing is watching or directing the show - it is just showing up. But the mind imagines there is something other than what there is. What is IS. It is too simple.

a reply to: Andy1144

Our hubris all too frequently dictates what we think "exists." Its easy to conclude that because something doesn't logically "make sense," that it doesn't exist. But, that assumes our cognitive ability as a species is profound enough to dictate what is, or is not, based solely on whether or not it makes sense.

Its entirely possible that something like free will exists in a way that is beyond our capacity to understand. In a way, that could support the premise that it doesn't exist, but only insofar as we define and understand it.

At that point, we can choose to throw it all out based on the (perhaps erroneous) idea that reality conforms to what we can understand, or we can evolve our understanding based on the (perhaps erroneous) idea that we may not be looking at it accurately. A paradox may point to our own limited understanding rather than any sort of true irreconcilable conflict

If it is recognised that there is no one choosing actions then there would be no blame and no guilt - life would be lighter.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

"The imagination imagines all that is not - and that is a lot!!
What there is cannot be imagined."

Yet what can be imagined can apparently be achieved given enough time and resource.

"Nothing is watching or directing the show - it is just showing up. But the mind imagines there is something other than what there is. What is IS. It is too simple."

Something cannot come from nothing, at least not in our macro universe.

We cannot definitively prove there is no guiding force that underpins the very reality we experience anymore that we can prove that there is, given the technologies available, and the very 3 dimensional make up of our very existence.

There is nothing simply about topic given our distinct lack of understanding, so why are you so sure?

I find this a rather useful little clip in terms of exploring the free will/determinism paradox. It's only 8 minutes long, but very enjoyable and easily explained.
Can I use the same brush to tar everyone with the same predictive responses?

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: andy06shake
Something cannot come from nothing, at least not in our macro universe.

Why are you so sure?

A vacuum might seem like empty space, but scientists have discovered a new way to seemingly get something from that nothingness, such as light. And the finding could ultimately help scientists build incredibly powerful quantum computers or shed light on the earliest moments in the universe's history.

www.scientificamerican.com...

All that is happening right now is flashing lights appearing as what there is - like pixels on a tv screen.

a reply to: Lucius Driftwood
'The field is the sole governing agency of the particle' Albert Einstein.

a reply to: Andy1144

No, as the OP it is your job to properly convey your idea. It is not our job to decipher your jargon. If you haven't gotten your point across by now its probably time to rework your theory. Also, insulting the audience you're pandering to doesn't help your case. Just a little advice...

Do you still bother to look both ways when you cross the street?