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Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

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posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:43 AM
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originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: Manula

You couldn't have explained it simpler and I couldn't agree more.

It's interesting how misunderstood this simple logic can be where people can talk about it for years and not understand it.


It seems very difficult to understand because people don`t want to accept it. Free will is highly overrated.

And then they cant forgive, they blame each other, penalties are very deserved etc etc, it promotes hatred because people blame each other for their wrong doing.

Penalties are needed because we need order, discipline and peace, not because we deserve them!

Humanity could use this simple truth to become more compassionate and understanding but maybe that´s asking too much... It´s supposed to be this way.


edit on 3-2-2017 by Manula because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:54 AM
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a reply to: Manula

Exactly, but people don't want their illusions destroyed. They are too afraid to consider not having free will. I am more free now knowing there is no free will then before, paradoxically.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 07:29 AM
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Are you by chance a reporter for CNN that is owned by Obama and the Clintons? "Look into the light. You are getting sleepy. You will do what we tell you. You will believe what we tell you. You will see what we tell you." Give me a break, free will is in everyone. We make choices every day according to what we like. Well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you should tell me what I do. I wonder what I will be fed for lunch today? I wonder how I'm going to get to work today? I wonder when I will go to bed today? Please tell me so that I can be ready.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 08:42 AM
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originally posted by: ConstitutionalPatriot
Are you by chance a reporter for CNN that is owned by Obama and the Clintons? "Look into the light. You are getting sleepy. You will do what we tell you. You will believe what we tell you. You will see what we tell you." Give me a break, free will is in everyone. We make choices every day according to what we like. Well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you should tell me what I do. I wonder what I will be fed for lunch today? I wonder how I'm going to get to work today? I wonder when I will go to bed today? Please tell me so that I can be ready.


If you like women you will choose to date women. But do you really chose to like women? Are you that free? It just happens.
If you are vengeful, you will fight to get your revenge.
Our deepest desires and wantings are not a choice, they just happen, you are who you are, not by choice, but because...
And apparent choices, they just give expression to those wantings, desires and ways of being that you just didn't choose to have.
Face it, are you scared?

edit on 3-2-2017 by Manula because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: Manula

Freewill has nothing to do with mindless self indulgence... that equates to being an animal, of course when society shows it's worst nature that what people get reduced too, and it is out of control and systems that do not work.

The drug war look up what it has done... nothing but incarerate a ton of people, it hasnt stopped flow it hasn't prevented any crime... it has just villified a huge segment of the population before the 1900's? There was no such thing all of it was legal. Coke a cola used have cociane in it for crying out loud... it is how that corporation it got to be what it is today.

People want to act like this is some new busness some experiment... prohibition is the experiment and an abject failure that has created a rico on both side of legality and an excuse to lock up or profile huge segments of the population.

If you were targeted as such in hate; and had to cope with beng systematically put at the bottom rung of society and struggle how would you feel?

Many have; and how do they feel? Lincoln hasn't been president in a long ass time and here we are still feeling the pain and inequality from it... why? It is entrenched and systematic.

So freewill... has nothing to do with law but since there are so many? I am sure it really feels like there isn't any... and who is to blame? All of those on the take; that don't want to give something back.

No one is an island it takes a village... from the roads we all share and everything inbetween.

Drunk behind the wheel...freewill can obviously put someone there.


edit on 3-2-2017 by BigBrotherDarkness because: sp.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: ConstitutionalPatriot

If you would only read these posts with more scrutiny, you would understand what we're saying. Instead ironically, you're just sheepishly repeating the same old argument most person on this post has. "What do you mean I have no free will, I can obviously do whatever I want". Be a critical thinker for once.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:31 AM
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I did a research paper on a quantum theory of mind which would allow for free will. An electrons position has no cause. It kind of chooses where it wants to be. I believe that our choices are influenced by many things but in the end we all make a choice. Remove all influences and then you have a pure choice which would appear to an outsider as random.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:31 AM
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DP
edit on 03amFri, 03 Feb 2017 10:32:03 -0600kbamkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: darkbake




Remove all influences and then you have a pure choice which would appear to an outsider as random.

If there is no influence what would it be based on?

Also what you mean by free will is completely different then one I mentioned in the OP. It's a different discussion.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: darkbake

Sometimes just becoming aware of an influence gives us more options/power to change. It's that education stuff again, learning new things changes us.

Also maybe this is why people fast and stuff, in part to practice being above influence of body in a way.

Still in the end, even if all the influences are removed... it's our environment that chooses to remove influence from us or something happens that wakes us up. Still not our choice in a way.

Not sure about electrons though but that sounds cool, you coukd post your own thread and summarize it in laymans terms or just post the entire thing up. I'd be interested in that.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:32 AM
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a reply to: Andy1144

If there is no influence it is based on will alone. How is this type of free will different than that in your op? I studied ants running through a maze. When they first come to an intersection, they choose a way to go. How is this choice made if there were no influences involved? Are you suggesting the ant would not be able to make a choice if there were no previous experiences with mazes etc?
edit on 03amFri, 03 Feb 2017 11:36:07 -0600kbamkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)

edit on 03amFri, 03 Feb 2017 11:38:23 -0600kbamkAmerica/Chicago by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:44 AM
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a reply to: darkbake

See any kind of freewill that is not complete and unadulterated is not freewill at all.

Our thoughts sometimes seem to arise from some unknown/unknowable location we have yet to define.

Personally im a subscriber to some form of shared group consciousness being responsible or at least at play, possibly emanating from the quantum realm.


edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:47 AM
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a reply to: darkbake




If there is no influence it is based on will alone.

The difference is influence includes both internal and external factors. At least that's how I mean it.



I studied ants running through a maze. When they first come to an intersection, they choose a way to go. How is this choice made if there were no influences involved?

Ants are programmed to have at least some level of logic and instinct. That is their genetic influence to act that way.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake

Either way, consciousness would still not be free to act outside of it's quantum confinements. And if it was, it wouldn't be free from not being free.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:56 AM
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a reply to: Andy1144

Logic, or our notion of such seems to be rather problematic when attempting to apply it to this particular conundrum

I will say this, logically you cannot solve a puzzle in its entirety unless you are in possession of all the puzzle pieces.

You may be able to infer what it looks like, but a complete facsimile can never be established beyond reasonable doubt.

Fact is we don't have all the pieces and to date can only interpenetrate 5% of the game board(Universe).


edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

Ah but we exist at the macro realm, or we think we do.

Im just suggesting rather than the completely black and white diametrical opposed nature of freewill vs predestination which cannot seem to be resolved using current logic that we are somehow influenced form the quantum realm.

A bit like a very small tail wagging a very, very large dog.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 12:02 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake

It is ironic and a paradox you can make such a claim with certainty, yet deny all of my claims of any certainty.

But I agree with you we can't know everything. But there are a few things we can know for sure. And you even agreed with me that you know for sure that you experience life.

All I'm saying, is that we have no choice to do what we do. Because even if we do, we have no choice but to exert that freedom.

Again, probably 99% of the theories there are we can know nothing for sure. But there are absolute facts which we can prove beyond a shadow of doubt. In fact you stated one with certainty.

And sorry for
ing paradox so frequently, but such is the momentum of this conversation.
edit on 3-2-2017 by Andy1144 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake




Im just suggesting rather than the completely black and white diametrical opposed nature of freewill vs predestination which cannot seem to be resolved using current logic that we are somehow influenced form the quantum realm.

I've said this more than once. I am NOT talking about free will vs predestination. I said this clearly. You are talking about something else, that's why we aren't getting anywhere.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 12:06 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

I dont deny you your claims Andy1144

Where have i said you are wrong?

I simply offer up my own thoughts on the matter(Then again that's debatable.
).

End of the day its all just really spit balling the universe, because we don't have the tools to address the real questions.....as of yet......but we are heading in the right direction.
edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 12:10 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

Buddy that's like saying "Lets talk about the Bible but not religion".

There is a direct correlation yet diametric opposition regarding the concept of freewill vs predestination.

It's like mentioning black without talking about white.

What else im i talking about besides freewill?

You cant ignore the other side of the equation/argument. It wont just go away, and if it did, would it make any sense?


edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



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