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Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

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posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

"It is impossible to make a conscious willful decision without it being influenced by something."

Possibly that something resides within the quantum realm? Hence any interaction is rather hard to detect in our macro environment, sort of like quantum Ashakic records/program dictating our trajectory in this world.

"This is the freedom I claim we lack. And this claim has nothing to do with causality, it would still be the same regardless."

I suppose freedom depends on perspective never mind expectations. One Mans freedom is another Mans incarceration.

"As for the free will to have the ability act on desires, yes we do have that freedom. Paradoxically we have no choice but to. This is the other free will. So they both have different meaning."

To do anything other would seem to require us to think outside the 3 dimensional box in which we live. That's rather hard to achieve given the physical and biological constraints we are forced to follow. That's why technologies such as artificial intelligence and biological engineering may very well pave the way as to us Humans being able to answer such questions as to what free will actually comprises.
edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 05:55 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake




Possibly that something resides within the quantum realm? Hence any interaction is rather hard to detect in our macro environment, sort of like quantum Ashakic records/program.

It could reside in either or both it doesn't matter. Something includes anything that exists.




That's why technologies such as artificial intelligence and biological engineering may very well pave the way as to us Humans being able to answer such questions as to what free will actually comprises.

I don't know which free will your talking about. If you are talking about the one Im talking about, then that statement is doesn't answer anything. If you are talking about what comprises our desires, then that is a different subject.

I think you're over complicating this. In order to make a conscious will you need to be influenced by something be it quantum or physical. That's all I'm saying. Simple logic.

Do you know what I mean by free will now?

edit on 3-2-2017 by Andy1144 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:12 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

"It could reside in either or both it doesn't matter. Something includes anything that exists."

See existence at that sort of scale, down there amungst the quantum foam can very well depend on observation alone.

The quantum environment does not necessarily follow the same set of physical laws that our own macro environment does.

Its kind of what makes it rather interesting.

"I don't know which free will your talking about. If you are talking about the one Im talking about, then that statement is doesn't answer anything."

Like i said there ether is freewill, or there is something else, but that would not be freewill.

Its perfectly logical really, there ether is or there is not. Its ether at our discretion or it is controlled from some other point, possibly even another dimension.

"I think you're over complicating this. In order to make a conscious will you need to be influenced by something be it quantum or physical. That's all I'm saying. Simple logic."

Logic breaks down at the quantum level, the mechanics of such could be said to destroy the fundamentals of our logical reasoning.

In quantum mechanics it is postulated that something can be in two places at the same time.

Does it mean that some people who don't understand quantum mechanics believe that something could be at two places at the same time?

Or does it mean that Quantum mechanics allows for the possibility that something could be at two places at the same time?






edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:25 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake




The quantum environment does not necessarily follow the same set of physical laws that our own macro environment does.

Whether you experience the phycical world or the quantum world, would that change the experience of being aware itself? Awareness would be awareness no matter how things behave at a quantum level. Do you see how being aware is absolute no matter what your aware of? Don't you see this is an absolute fact not constrained by quantum physics?

Again, this it what Im saying. You cant make a decision free from influence, this includes the quantum. Because even though quantum is unpredictable and may not operate and cause and effect, it is still an influence. So if you make a decision based on quantum phenomenon, you are doing it because that is influencing you. Its simple. You cant make a decision without something influencing you.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

"Whether you experience the phycical world or the quantum world, would that change the experience of being aware itself?"

That's an interesting question, i suppose if we experience the physical world here and the quantum somewhere else our experience of such may differ substantially, depending on our perspective.

"Awareness would be awareness no matter how things behave at a quantum level. Do you see how being aware is absolute no matter what your aware of? Don't you see this is an absolute fact not constrained by quantum physics?"

Again we cannot know that because we operate, or so we think at the macro level, and do not exactly have a window as of yet in to the quantum realm, so how could we know whether or not awareness is the same never mind "Awareness would be awareness"?

"Again, this it what Im saying. You cant make a decision free from influence, this includes the quantum. Because even though quantum is unpredictable and may not operate and cause and effect, it is still an influence. So if you make a decision based on quantum phenomenon, you are doing it because that is influencing you. Its simple. You cant make a decision without something influencing you."

You are saying it like its absolute fact through, there are multiple different interpretations of the reality we experience other than just your own.

Cause and effect are important factors where freewill is concerned yet nether follow the same paradigm that they do here at the quantum scale, suggesting some rather strange implications associated with where(Or when) our thoughts could emanate from if indeed we(Our brain) are somehow connected at that level of madness. I say madness because think of the sheer chaos that takes place at such scale, but from chaos apparently comes order.
edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:49 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte


There is an old saying that Surgeons are Serial Killers that are expressing this desire in socially appropriate way.

When I think about the human race as it is today as opposed to historically it is a kind of heaven compared. But another saying being the, "devil is in the details". Where in fact human suffrage as recorded historically with the advent of the industrial revolution is significant. Human society from my perspective is presenting the equivalent to the "terrible two's".


When the cones activate in the human eye's where color and depth perception improve significantly the toddlers ability to perceive.

When it comes to entropy we could be looking at it from the same orientation as one of the four blind men (proverbially) trying to understand an elephant. My meaning in this is that entropy Is a process and that we can observe it could have relevance not specific to decay from the layman orientation. The condition of "death" as it is generally defined is actually circumvented by the law of conservation in the sense that the information is never lost ever.



So, is survival evil if living means some level of immorality?


Infinity in mathematics could be understood more from the point of view that we really have no idea what is going on when calculations result in this response. The conclusion could mean the phenomenon is actually infinite but it could also mean that the phenomenon is operating on a level we simply do not have the math to describe. Myself I consider the latter extremely relevant not only in relation to math but to religion, philosophy and spirituality to name a few.

To me mankind has grasped about 3% of the Universal proverbial pie and as a result of evolution will with time go beyond that.

Competition in example brings some our best athletes the conclusion that they really are not competing against other but rather, against there performance past. This mind set clearly goes beyond individual behavior in apparent sense it relatesto evolution.

On trauma, mankind has survived extinction level events and yes it is highly likely that a thousand years from now.

Humans with look at us the same way we look at the was people lived a thousand years ago.

Survival is inherent to life and in religion it is expressed that all life sacrificed for the purpose of survival is understood as relevant in that it now a part of the "infinite", cycle of life.

Akin spiritually to the symbolism of a Wheel in European culture in example and in relation the logic implied.

Myself I have little interest in popularity contest.

Mr. Trump is an interesting thought experiment and I really do not discuss politics on the Internet

edit on 3-2-2017 by Kashai because: Content edit



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 06:53 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake




That's an interesting question, i suppose if we experience the physical world here and the quantum somewhere else our experience of such may differ substantially, depending on our perspective.

Absolutely, but no matter how diverse and different experience, the fact that we are aware of it would be constant.



Again we cannot know that because we operate, or so we think at the macro level, and do not exactly have a window as of yet in to the quantum realm, so how could we know whether or not awareness is the same never mind "Awareness would be awareness"?

But awareness isn't constrained to anything, that's why it's irrelevant. Awareness isn't a thought, it's what is aware of the thought. So no matter what the content of awareness is, the fact that you are aware of it is constant. It doesn't matter what the rules are, regardless of any infinite dimensions. If you are aware of it, then that fact is true no matter where you are. Either you are aware, or you are not. Semi-awareness is just a word we use to describe different experiences, it has no barring on awareness itself. Awareness not matter what you experience is awareness. Be it illusion or reality.



You are saying it like its absolute fact through, there are multiple different interpretations of the reality we experience other than just your own.

So you are saying there are people who experience the world without consciousness? I'm sure both of us can agree that if we experience life, then it's true for everyone who experiences it. So do you see why this logic is fool proof? Its not even an interpretation actually, experience is known whether we choose to believe it or not.



Cause and effect are important factors where freewill is concerned yet nether follow the same paradigm that they do here at the quantum scale, suggesting some rather strange implications associated with where(Or when) our thoughts could emanate from.

Thats not the free will im talking about. I am not talking about where thoughts come, I am saying in order for thoughts to occur there needs to be something influencing them.
edit on 3-2-2017 by Andy1144 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 07:01 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

"But awareness isn't constrained to anything, that's why it's irrelevant. Awareness isn't a thought, it's what is aware of the thought. So no matter what the content of awareness is, the fact that you are aware of it is constant."

If thought is not awareness then what is it?

How can you think with out at least being partially aware?

"So you are saying there are people who experience the world without consciousness?"

I postulate that such entity's could exist or come into being just as easily, if not more so, as we seem to have materialized/evolved.

Well not me but the physicist Ludwig Boltzmann did.

en.wikipedia.org...

"Thats not the free will im talking about. I am not talking about where thoughts come, I am saying in order for thoughts to occur there needs to be something influencing them. "

Tomato Tomato, same thing different packaging.


edit on 3-2-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 07:12 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake




If thought is not awareness then what is it?

Thought is being experienced by awareness.



How can you think with out at least being partially aware?

I dont think you can. In fact maybe thoughts would still arise but there wouldnt be any awareness of them. That itself shoes awareness isnt a thought.



I postulate that such entity's could exist or come into being just as easily, if not more so, as we seem to have materialized/evolved.

I am saying every AWARE entity experiences life through awareness.



Tomato Tomato, same thing different packaging.

Maybe you are an unaware entity yet to some into being? (joke)



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 07:22 PM
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a reply to: Andy1144

"Maybe you are an unaware entity yet to some into being? (joke)"

Certainly explain a lot regarding determination.......or would it?


Never mind that last q was rhetorical.......or was it?


Enough now, its been a pleasure spit balling the inconsistency and scale of our universe but its 01:21 and i have two screaming weans to contend with up in few hours, ah Sundays eh? So ile need to somewhat put our conversation on hold for the moment.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 07:29 PM
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a reply to: andy06shake

Its 2:27 where I am and I need to get up at 6. Thanks for the conversation. I wont be back until sunday either interesting how similar our stories are. Maybe its a sign? Lol goodnight.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 09:45 PM
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I think OP, you are probably overthinking the whole free will thing. Also not certain the point you try to make.

If you were born in a blank room and had no input from any source, could you speak? Could you imagine? Could you write a book? Nope. Everyone's knowledge and thought processes are created by what they experience in their life. And their decisions as a result. Free will may be predetermined really, by your life experiences.. and how you interpret it.. but that's kind of what people mean by free will.

When people talk of free will, they don't literally mean the ability to create a decision based on nothing.. something that just flitters into your mind that you have never experienced or have no knowledge of. I think you have listed to that Rush song a few to many times.. the one that goes "If you choose not to choose, you still have made a choice!"



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:15 PM
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originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: darkbake




If there is no influence it is based on will alone.

The difference is influence includes both internal and external factors. At least that's how I mean it.



I studied ants running through a maze. When they first come to an intersection, they choose a way to go. How is this choice made if there were no influences involved?

Ants are programmed to have at least some level of logic and instinct. That is their genetic influence to act that way.


I do agree that genes could influence the ant's choice on a path to take. So if you think the issue of free will is solved and we don't have any, what would you call our life experience? Is it an illusion?



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:04 AM
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a reply to: Manula

I choose to be who I am by the decisions I make. I choose not to be an ax murderer. If you are vengeful, you can choose to get your revenge or choose not to. The majority of people don't choose revenge. I'm not scared because I choose not to. Your philosophical argument makes no sense. Go back to Berkeley and throw a brick through the window. You can choose to do that.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:14 AM
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originally posted by: ConstitutionalPatriot
a reply to: Manula

I choose to be who I am by the decisions I make.

"Schopenhauer's words, 'Man can indeed do what he wants, but he cannot want what he wants',
edit on 4-2-2017 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:20 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

“Human beings do not like being pushed about by gods. They may seem to, on the surface, but somewhere on the inside, underneath it all, they sense it, and they resent it.” - Neil Gaiman.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:29 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake

I am having trouble understanding why you replied with the reply you posted - am I missing something - maybe you could elaborate?



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:36 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

Is a quote about freewill Itisnowagain alluring to the possibility that underneath all the bull crap and control constructs presented to us Man yearns to be free.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake

But it is a joke!
The only way for man to be free is to realise that it is all done by God. God is all powerful. But man wants to be powerful but where is man - where is the separate person who can do anything?
There is only ever what is happening and no separate entity is doing this that is.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 07:51 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

It might all be one big cosmic joke for all we know Itisnowagain.

If God is all powerful then why is he nothing more than an absent parent at best?

And at worst a genocidal megalomaniac with abandonment issues and a severe grudge against his creations?

Why bestow freewill on his apparent creations yet also claim predestination over them?

You must see the irony never mind diametric opposition at play, if that's not the ultimate joke i don't know what is.

Maybe we are the entity and not so separate from one another as we choose to believe?



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