Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: InTheLight

"If you were falling in a vacuum, in utter darkness, though none of your senses would be engaged, you would still be sure you exist; therefore, there is a distinction between mind and body."

That would indeed be hell through, to exist in nothingness, and without prior knowledge of anything other than that nothingness. What would you draw upon to establish your existence one wonders?

I understand the premise of Avicena's Falling Man Theory, just playing devil's advocate.

Or, what would you draw upon to establish your consciousness/reality, which to me, establishes one's existence.

a reply to: InTheLight

Exactly, seems to me through that without any facts or experience to lend credence to ones existence its rather hard to establish such, or anything for that matter.

To infer that "I think therefore, i am" needs to be proceeded with something more, thus establishing some form of context to the situation.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: InTheLight

Exactly, seems to me through that without any facts or experience to lend credence to ones existence its rather hard to establish such, or anything for that matter.

To infer that "I think therefore, i am" needs to be proceeded with something more, thus establishing some form of context to the situation.

But just by reaching the level of thinking/consciousness one would think everything has been established at that point.

a reply to: InTheLight

Established what through, that you exist in nothingness?

How would you even know what nothingness was without further information to draw upon?

Which calls in to question, how you would know that you exist at all?

Suppose you may be able to establish that you are, but not what you are.

Then again how you would even know how to establish a logical train of thought in all this nothingness is beyond reasoning if you think about it.

Far as i can see you would not have any form of language or reasoning ability nor any way of establishing such. So how you can establish existence is rather oblivious.

a reply to: andy06shake

are you saying for awareness to exist you have to have sensory input?

i dont like the whole theres no free will argument. the placebo effect exists in the first place because we have the will to change our physiology based on something we believe. we control the body and brain. not the other way around.

saying theres no free will is devoid of logic. much like believing in santa claus.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: InTheLight

Established what through, that you exist in nothingness?

How would you even know what nothingness was without further information to draw upon?

Which calls in to question, how you would know that you exist at all?

Suppose you may be able to establish that you are, but not what you are.

Then again how you would even know how to establish a logical train of thought in all this nothingness is beyond reasoning if you think about it.

Far as i can see you would not have any form of language or reasoning ability nor any way of establishing such. So how you can establish existence is rather oblivious.

I don't have the answers, but if one is falling, then there is that sensory input and within that one could become aware of the state of falling or floating and grapple with it via reasoning or wonder, then the utter darkness, may evoke wonder or enhance the other senses. Would not these be causal to thinking?

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

You can do whatever your brain pleases, but you cannot do things differently then it pleases, because even if you do, it is the brain which desires to do so. So there is no freedom from the brain or whatever forces make you desire something.

a reply to: InTheLight

- if you were falling in a vacuum, in utter darkness, though none of your senses would be engaged, you would still be sure you exist; therefore, there is a distinction between mind and body.

How can you experience life without the senses?

And in order to fall in a vacuum there must be gravity or momentum and an object to fall.

a reply to: InTheLight

Nobody does buddy but the questions are interesting to ponder nonetheless.

"aware of the state of falling or floating"

Floating or falling in what exactly because if its something then its not nothingness

"and grapple with it via reasoning or wonder,"

Whats grapple, reason or wonder? Keeping in mind you exist in nothingness, such concepts would be meaningless.

"then the utter darkness, may evoke wonder or enhance the other senses."

Thought the premise was that all exterior senses are turned off?

"Would not these be causal to thinking?"

Possibly through how you would form such concepts from mere nothingness remains to be established.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

I'm saying without some form of sensory input or knowledge base one has to wonder how you would establish anything.

Seems to me that in a universe where cause and effect follow the linear progression, there can be no output(thought) without some form of input.

Which is where the quantum element rears its head where cause and effect can follow a rather different paradigm.

a reply to: Andy1144

ok well by that logic a person absolutely has to be afraid of death. its self preservation. how are people able to commit suicide or stand up straight on the battlefield?

a reply to: andy06shake

well why do you need something to precede thought? what about imagination? isnt simply realizing you are aware a thought?

people having out of body, near death, and psychedelic experiences often report going to a place completely devoid of anything and they are still aware of it. by your logic you couldn't possibly remember such a place.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: Andy1144

ok well by that logic a person absolutely has to be afraid of death. its self preservation. how are people able to commit suicide or stand up straight on the battlefield?

Because they feel like it?

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: andy06shake

well why do you need something to precede thought? what about imagination? isnt simply realizing you are aware a thought?

people having out of body, near death, and psychedelic experiences often report going to a place completely devoid of anything and they are still aware of it. by your logic you couldn't possibly remember such a place.

Yes, imagination or wonder without sensory input...is that possible?

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

How can you imagine anything without external experience to draw upon?

You cannot learn from nothingness nor make any assumptions down to lack of information.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason


"well why do you need something to precede thought?"

That's the question, honest answer i dont know.

"what about imagination? isnt simply realizing you are aware a thought?"

I would imagine so but where said thought originated is still debatable.

"people having out of body, near death, and psychedelic experiences often report going to a place completely devoid of anything and they are still aware of it."

This is bordering on religion through hence there experiences told afterwards generally reflect there belief system. It an interesting subject worthy of its own thread.

"by your logic you couldn't possibly remember such a place."

Its not my logic per say. Keeping mind logic breaks down when applied to the problem. So logically we are missing something.

a reply to: Andy1144

well how could they feel like it in the first place? a primary uncontrollable function of the brain is self preservation. if you kill yourself you are going against the brain.

a reply to: andy06shake

If we are physical beings then not all exterior senses can be turned off? So, I am not sure what the philosopher means by none of your senses would be engaged. This is an oxymoron if one can still become aware of one's consciousness and deem oneself to exist. For my sanity, I think, I am conscious, therefore I exist. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

a reply to: InTheLight

But is the universe physical? As current understanding of cutting edge mathematics and even physics seems to suggest it may be holographic by nature.

Our very existence or notion of such may be the ultimate oxymoron.

But for most intents and purposes our universe does appear to be physical at least to us, question such as this however seem to operate somewhat outside out box of comfort or ability to answer in a meaningful manner.