Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

a reply to: andy06shake

because thats what imagination is. you dont need the concept of an object or idea to imagine it. thats the whole point of imagination in the first place.

you can learn that nothingness is lonely. its not fulfilling. you dont need to live a life of sensory input before nothingness to have the idea that nothingness wont grow your awareness. but theres nothing to suggest you cant be aware of nothingness.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: Andy1144

well how could they feel like it in the first place? a primary uncontrollable function of the brain is self preservation. if you kill yourself you are going against the brain.

Human beings seem to have enough capacity to go against their strong wired feelings. Also, I think self-sacrifice is a phenomenon found in nature, so maybe it's not completely unnatural.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

Yes, becoming aware of nothingness and imaging what the nothingness is by creating images in one's mind? Something I do with the unimaginable(?) world or idea of quantum mechanics.

a reply to: InTheLight

well the only reason to think it wouldnt be possible is if you only believe in materialism.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

How can you learn to be lonely when you cannot comprehend your existence for all that nothingness?

Like i said most you could comprehend is that you are, but nothing else. You seem to be some what anthropomorphizing this state of nothingness where human constructs would not apply, because you simply would not know you were human never mind something.

Stands to reason that you could not see the nothing forest for all those nothing trees.

a reply to: andy06shake

well i was an atheist during 90% of my out of body experiences. i was absolutely sure that psychical reality was all there was and i had no soul. didnt stop me from waking up above my sleeping body and assuming i had died. nor did it stop me from having a conversation with what people would describe as angels. obviously i have no explanation for these phenomenon but my beliefs had absolutely nothing to do with them. they went counter to everything i believed.

So logically we are missing something.

that i completely agree with. and philosophical discussion only get us so far. as does having beliefs in both theism and materialism. we need to be open about these things.

a reply to: Andy1144

but it should be unnatural if were to assume that the brain is in the drivers seat.

a reply to: InTheLight

right. its just hard to say what is and isnt imaginable since something imagined in the first place immediately becomes imaginable. lol. naw mean? early man couldn't imagine that we would create the world we live in today but it didnt stop it from happening.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: Andy1144

but it should be unnatural if were to assume that the brain is in the drivers seat.

Why do you insist it is unnatural? Self-preservation isn't the only way the brain can function and there are both human and animal brains which exhibit self-sacrifice. It is natural evolution.

a reply to: andy06shake

well what is loneliness? what are feelings? again if you needed input to to determine how you feel about something then you couldn't possibly have the experience of nothingness. and people have had that experience. fear and loneliness are often used to describe such an experience.

a reply to: Andy1144

well why do you insist it is natural? because it happens? i can easily say the same about free will. but it does not make it true. i can say that ive made decisions therefore i have free will. that doesnt reduce the reality of the problem at all.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

I don't understand what you're getting at. I am considering it natural because it happens. Name me one thing that is unnatural. Maybe you're thinking of a mutation, but that is natural to. Maybe an organism is build to avoid mutations but if it happens it's not unnatural. It's just a part of nature.

a reply to: Andy1144

well were talking about free will here. what im getting at is there is nothing logical that says we should be able to go beyond our most basic programming. but we do. if the brain drives the consciousness and we dont have free will then how are we able to go against basic self preservation? if i stop eating everything in my body will tell me to eat. i can override this. so is the body and the brain in control or am I?

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

so is the body and the brain in control or am I?

Who is this "I" that is separate from the mind and body?

As human beings we have evolved to a point where we can override our subconscious conditioning. It is perfectly natural for our brain to want to do this. The human brain is very neuro-plastic which means certain impulses can be rewired so we can respond differently to them.

So there is nothing unnatural, it's just how our intelligent human minds works.

a reply to: Andy1144

who is the "I" that dreams when your body goes to sleep at night? where do you go? are you the brain or do you have a brain? and what are you basing the assumption on that the "i" is something coming from some other place. space only exists in physical reality. i argue that it is illusory, not consciousness. i think space exists in our universe the same way it exists in a video game.

you say its perfectly natural. but whats the reasoning behind saying its natural? whats the proof? what is even the functional value of killing ones self? it doesn't benefit you or the tribe. its completely irrational. what is natural is described by reality. the reality according to materialism is free will is illusory and decisions made by the brain are dictated by programming. there is nothing to suggest that the brain would allow itself or the body to be damaged. nature tells us to protect ourselves. again you cant stop eating without everything in your body telling you that you need to eat. how could you possibly override the physiological effects of starving yourself if you didn't have a free will?

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

Input does generally determine how we feel through, hence good things happen we feel happy, bad things happen we feel sad.

Loneliness and feelings seem to be part of us being aware but that does not explain where our consciousness emerges from.

Ive never experienced nothingness to my knowledge, everyone may some day through unless our consciousness somewhat transcends death.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

who is the "I" that dreams when your body goes to sleep at night? where do you go?

Who consciousness? I don't know.

are you the brain or do you have a brain?

I cannot find a separate entity from the brain and body.

what is even the functional value of killing ones self?

Because one can think that life is unbearable so you can choose to end the pain for yourself.

it doesn't benefit you or the tribe.

Very depressed/suicidal people tend to be less functional for the group. However I am not sure how common suicide from depression was in primitive times.

how could you possibly override the physiological effects of starving yourself if you didn't have a free will?

But you see the human brain is programmed to rewire itself through changing personal beliefs. The desire and ability to against the programming is the programming itself.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

"well i was an atheist during 90% of my out of body experiences. i was absolutely sure that psychical reality was all there was and i had no soul. didnt stop me from waking up above my sleeping body and assuming i had died. nor did it stop me from having a conversation with what people would describe as angels."

Yet you conversed with what you perceived to be angels, that's interesting and again worth of a thread on its own.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

"well i was an atheist during 90% of my out of body experiences. i was absolutely sure that psychical reality was all there was and i had no soul. didnt stop me from waking up above my sleeping body and assuming i had died. nor did it stop me from having a conversation with what people would describe as angels."

Yet you conversed with what you perceived to be angels, that's interesting and again worth of a thread on its own.

Not necessarily, because he did not specify if there was a conflict of religious belief before becoming an atheist, therefore, during an OBE's incredibly awestruck experience (speaking for myself) he might have looked at, or was offered, all various realities to ponder.

a reply to: InTheLight

The experience in itself is interesting, the fact that he also perceived beings that were somewhat in power or charge of the situation suggests numerous possibilities both from psychological and religious standpoints, not to mention a few others.