Will the europeans ever be powerful?

Originally posted by paperplane_ukThe NSA have a great deal going with Intel, whereby they get access to all their prototype chips before they go to the domestic market. It has been estimated that they currently are about 3-5 years ahead of what we can get hold of.

Never knew the figures but that seems about right except for one thing, I would imagine that the DOD has access to stuff that even if 'invented' by Intel, we will not get for more than 10 years..

Like I said, I had a 100 MHz and the fastest money could buy was 133Mhz, and this guy was playing with an 800 MhZ, now maybe it was not a Pentium but with that speed, heat and therefore power was still an issue...

Is not only the US DOD they are working with

www.qinetiq.com...

(ps. Qinetiq is the trade name for the UK MoD Defence Research and Development Organisation)

Originally posted by edsinger
I think you have been proved wrong here like I said but be glad the Pegasus engine is still UK

Some radar system from BAE is in it, i know that much...

No it is the technology in it that makes the difference, 90% of its capability is in the systems and the Japanese even cant touch it...

What I meant was the system has been on the designing boards since the cold war, the japanese probably own the rights to half the equipment in it.

And that was with 60's technology, unless of course you think it was a hoax.

1960's or 1990's or 2000 doesnt matter, infact you SHOULD have better systems cause if you had the basic tech it shouldnt be too hard to modify it.

No, they IMPROVED it...........The Germans had good technology yes but who had little man first?

Who had the first missiles?
Who had the first rockets?
Who had th first person in space (yes i know there is controversy about what exsactly its called but they are part of europe.) ?

Let me explain something, lets take that SONY Laptop you speak of, hmmm it either has a Intel or an AMD chip correct? How about PCI express? need I go on? And another thing, I mentioned that the Space Shuttle uses 8086 chips, well so do modern power plants and such, why you ask? Known reliability and no need for more power in the uses that they are tasked in doing. If you think your SONY laptop is top of the line, you had better take a trip to the NSA, when I had my brand new 100MHz pentium a few years back I was playing online against someone with an 800Mhz chip who shouldn't have been online with it.......

The NSA of course has the best tech, they get the stuff from sony and the such before it hits the markets.
Ever wonder why the military has computer programs before they are on the civie street?

Lets make this straight...they BUILD them.....ok? R&D is not a US monopoly by any means, but we do have the best, bar none.....

You have equal with us, believe me.
The goal keeper has shown this, the challangers armour is proof , the germans **stuf** G-U-N-S are proof and the exorcet.
(stupid school fire wall)

Look you are barking up a tree that you cant climb m8, RAM - Rolling Airframe Missile, Shipwreck - "Carrier Killer" ask a CVN captain which he fears most? And for the record, the attack 'profile' of a sunburn is not new at all it is just the first at that speed, the shipwreck is much more of a pain

Tell me how a single missile can sink a carrier?
Or is this just one that damages it?
I cant look at the link right now....stupid PC.

And what do we have that can shoot it down you ask? Well lets see since its launch parameters are well within the Hawkeyes detection range and the Standard missile has plenty of reach to engage it, the ones that happen to get through would be handled by AMRAAMS from superbugs and RAMS.......sea sparrows suck I will agree...

Your hawk eyes didnt do so well in wargames missing an entire frigate!

And I do understand Naval Warfare, go check out Harpoon if you would like to learn some yourself....

I do, infact i inted to become a tif (engineer in the navy)

And btw, do you know what a Prowler can do to your precious sunburns?

Can a prowler be airbonre and operational in 30 seconds Dont think so.

Thats crap, their isn't anything that is going to get near a Carrier at 100 miles at the most without being known except for a submarine but that is even iffy at best...

BS , a plane flying below radar can get in range then fire the sunburn off, the damm thing flies about 9 feet of the sea man! Even the best radar cant pick that up !

Originally posted by devilwasp
BS , a plane flying below radar can get in range then fire the sunburn off, the damm thing flies about 9 feet of the sea man! Even the best radar cant pick that up !

The Sunburn is a huge missile, any plane big enough to carry it would be easily spotted over 100 miles.
Sea skimming missiles have been around for 30 years, it is nothing new and even the old Phalanx had a radar capable of picking up sea skimming targets.

[edit on 15-2-2005 by rogue1]

Originally posted by rogue1
The Sunburn is a huge missile, any plane big enough to carry it would be easily spotted over 100 miles.

Not if it flew below radar, also the SU- series can carry it.

Sea skimming missiles have been around for 30 years, it is nothing new and even the old Phalanx had a radar capable of picking up sea skimming targets.
[edit on 15-2-2005 by rogue1]

Yeah but this is a pop up one, the phalanx soesnt pick it up near the water, it picks it up when it rises to hit.
The old things like exorcet gives about 120 seconds reaction time, the sinburn gives 30 seconds or less.

Who had the first missiles?

germany

Who had the first rockets?

Who had th first person in space (yes i know there is controversy about what exsactly its called but they are part of europe.) ?

Tell me!

But germany had the first by humans made object in space at all!



americans even think they invented the car... LOL

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Wodan]

It was russians but they are part of europre, and asia.
Awkward !

Jokeing ruskies ah love you guys !

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by rogue1
The Sunburn is a huge missile, any plane big enough to carry it would be easily spotted over 100 miles.

Not if it flew below radar, also the SU- series can carry it.

Sea skimming missiles have been around for 30 years, it is nothing new and even the old Phalanx had a radar capable of picking up sea skimming targets.
[edit on 15-2-2005 by rogue1]

Yeah but this is a pop up one, the phalanx soesnt pick it up near the water, it picks it up when it rises to hit.
The old things like exorcet gives about 120 seconds reaction time, the sinburn gives 30 seconds or less.

Well it would be hard for a plane to fly uner radar especially with an E-2 up as they can pick up targets in the water out to hundreds of miles. So we can count out that scenario.

In a flat sea the US NAvy radars could easily pick up the Sunburn. If there was a significant swell, it would mean the Sunburn would have to fly higher as it could hit a wave. This would allow Naval radar to pick it up against the clutter.

Half a carrier battle group is dedicated to AAW - that's a tremendous amount of firepower. ONly a massed attack may have some chance of causing damage - but then the launching platforms would be easy meat.

Originally posted by rogue1
Well it would be hard for a plane to fly uner radar especially with an E-2 up as they can pick up targets in the water out to hundreds of miles. So we can count out that scenario.

Yes, it can pick up a ship at several hundred miles away due to its size, a small lone plane with good RCS could penetrate the grid.

In a flat sea the US NAvy radars could easily pick up the Sunburn. If there was a significant swell, it would mean the Sunburn would have to fly higher as it could hit a wave. This would allow Naval radar to pick it up against the clutter.

In my experience ofshore there was rarely a day where it was "flat".
Also only in bad conditions does a swell get above 9 feet above sea level.
I mean come on thats half the hieght of the tsnunami wave!

The US navy couldnt pick it up since radar doesnt work like that, radar would bounce off the water createing dodgy signals and the ship would be running around in circles blowing up water...

Half a carrier battle group is dedicated to AAW - that's a tremendous amount of firepower. ONly a massed attack may have some chance of causing damage - but then the launching platforms would be easy meat.

No, there are multiple ways to take down a ship in a fleet with a sunburn.
Hell a two pronged attack on the escorts would sort out half thier fleet , since there is only about 6 ships in the battle group.

Also if the escorts are destroyed the carrier has to run, now if the carrier changes course then it cant fly planes or land them, they dont need to sink it just stop it flying aircraft.

I think you guys underestimate the U.S. Navy's capabilities too much; you're all on here discussing this stuff like you're experts or something, when most of you probably don't know what you're really talking about, aside from a few areas.

Like I said, the U.S. military has tech that is far ahead of anything known by the public. It doesn't release its capabilities to the media.

One thing to remember though is carriers are very expensive and very valuable, and they are very, very, very difficult to take out. But I would seriously doubt that the U.S. doesn't have something that can equal the Sunburn. A LOT of research and money goes into the defense of carriers.

You tell the liberal media about some "elite" foreign-made missile, and they'll make out like you just launch a couple and the U.S. Navy would crumble or something.

The majority of the capabilities the U.S. Navy has for protecting its ships are classified, and for good reason.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
I think you guys underestimate the U.S. Navy's capabilities too much; you're all on here discussing this stuff like you're experts or something, when most of you probably don't know what you're really talking about, aside from a few areas.

Like I said, the U.S. military has tech that is far ahead of anything known by the public. It doesn't release its capabilities to the media.

One thing to remember though is carriers are very expensive and very valuable, and they are very, very, very difficult to take out. But I would seriously doubt that the U.S. doesn't have something that can equal the Sunburn. A LOT of research and money goes into the defense of carriers.

You tell the liberal media about some "elite" foreign-made missile, and they'll make out like you just launch a couple and the U.S. Navy would crumble or something.

The majority of the capabilities the U.S. Navy has for protecting its ships are classified, and for good reason.

I think you said this well and we need to be careful, maybe he will check the link to learn about the shipwreck


Some pointers:

-The Japanese own very little rights to anything on the F22.......

-SONY does not sell their latest to the US DOD, Lockheed and Boeing do for example.....SONY has great civilian technology but the R&D portion is not in the same class as what you are implying.

-Goalkeeper ? Phalanx? Same stuff.......I could tell you a story of a Phalanx exercise but it would not serve this conversation well...

-Single missile against a carrier (non-nuke)? Look Shipwrecks don't work alone.....learn what a Backfire or an Oscar II are and then you will get the idea....

-Hawkeyes have LOOK DOWN RADAR with ~300+ Mile range, it is called Battle-space Multiplication. The planes cant fly anywhere that the Hawk can not see it, unless underwater but that is another subject altogether.

-As for the Harrier? The Radar in it sucks compared to the Blue Fox in the Sea Harrier but that is a personal opinion.


- Prowlers don't wait on the deck, remember the Battle space comment? 1 is in the air at all times and when a threat exists you can make that 2.


-If you want to be an engineer in the Navy, great! I suggest you go check out the naval simulator call harpoon3....there you can get the basics and you will love it.....plus you can see which one will make you spill a beer first, a shipwreck or a sunburn....ok?

-As for the military programs first before the civilian market? He, civilians would have no use for what they got......It is hard for me to explain but here is a shot at it...you as a civilian have a laptop with a brand new 3.6GhZ Intel chip in it........running windows I might add.........the comparison would be a 20Ghz running a proprietary OS with a quality control that would make Gates shiver......Windows is not unstable by our thinking but to a military situation it would be far unacceptable.



-When the Phalanx engages, it is because the 'dome' has been penetrated and it is as a last resort, technically speaking, if it gets that far you are in trouble.....the RAM is 100 times more effective......


- Now for Aegis, it is a phased array radar, it shoots 'beams' and the software package backing it up can cut through the clutter, but, and a big but, the Hawkeye would already be directing the engagement before the Aegis picked it up.....at least it better be.



Again Wasp, go check Harpoon3 out and download the demo.......you want to learn modern Naval warfare, there is no better tool to learn it.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068

Like I said, the U.S. military has tech that is far ahead of anything known by the public. It doesn't release its capabilities to the media.

____________________________________________________________

The majority of the capabilities the U.S. Navy has for protecting its ships are classified, and for good reason.

Yeah, So therefore you cannot make ANY comments about how capable or uncapable the US Navy is; as you said, there are things in development that they don't tell you about, and since you don't know what they are... Oh! WAIT A MINUTE! If they REALLY were classified, You wouldn't even KNOW THAT THEY WERE THAT FAR AHEAD IN TECH OR DEVELOPING IT!

Originally posted by edsinger
I think you said this well and we need to be careful, maybe he will check the link to learn about the shipwreck

So you think a single missile is capable of takeing down a carrier?
....Think again..

-The Japanese own very little rights to anything on the F22.......

But what does it own rights to?

-SONY does not sell their latest to the US DOD, Lockheed and Boeing do for example.....SONY has great civilian technology but the R&D portion is not in the same class as what you are implying.

They make a computer chip or program, the program gets edited to the use or the chip gets used for a specific purpose, the company knows nothing about what it does.

-Goalkeeper ? Phalanx? Same stuff.......I could tell you a story of a Phalanx exercise but it would not serve this conversation well...

Goal keeper is better armed and has a better range, most ships DO take out the planes before the missile but if the missile was launched they would need to use sea sparrows or something.

-Single missile against a carrier (non-nuke)? Look Shipwrecks don't work alone.....learn what a Backfire or an Oscar II are and then you will get the idea....
[/qutoe]
A sunburn cant take down the carrier on its own but they can take down the escorts, which are the most dangerous thing, the airwing can be taken out by surface ships.

-Hawkeyes have LOOK DOWN RADAR with ~300+ Mile range, it is called Battle-space Multiplication. The planes cant fly anywhere that the Hawk can not see it, unless underwater but that is another subject altogether.

Yes, but the hawk eye can be taken out to, they fly with escorts but radar works both ways.

-As for the Harrier? The Radar in it sucks compared to the Blue Fox in the Sea Harrier but that is a personal opinion.

Yeah sea harrier is much better than the harrier i agree, they are cool planes non the less.
A tech achievement.

- Prowlers don't wait on the deck, remember the Battle space comment? 1 is in the air at all times and when a threat exists you can make that 2.

Ah, but can It be every where in the fleet?
No, it can be only in a specific area.

-If you want to be an engineer in the Navy, great! I suggest you go check out the naval simulator call harpoon3....there you can get the basics and you will love it.....plus you can see which one will make you spill a beer first, a shipwreck or a sunburn....ok?

The US or UK cant have sunburn data since its never been sold to them and they have never aquired them.

-As for the military programs first before the civilian market? He, civilians would have no use for what they got......It is hard for me to explain but here is a shot at it...you as a civilian have a laptop with a brand new 3.6GhZ Intel chip in it........running windows I might add.........the comparison would be a 20Ghz running a proprietary OS with a quality control that would make Gates shiver......Windows is not unstable by our thinking but to a military situation it would be far unacceptable.

Lol windows is unstable, you have seen the famous demonstration by bill?

-When the Phalanx engages, it is because the 'dome' has been penetrated and it is as a last resort, technically speaking, if it gets that far you are in trouble.....the RAM is 100 times more effective......

Yeah, same with the close range gun crews and such.

- Now for Aegis, it is a phased array radar, it shoots 'beams' and the software package backing it up can cut through the clutter, but, and a big but, the Hawkeye would already be directing the engagement before the Aegis picked it up.....at least it better be.

Most likely if put into real use the sunburn would be part of a co-ordinated attack.
If they got a few loose against the carrier that woulndt be soo good.

Also wasnt it an ageis class ship that was sunk by the iraqi's with an exorcet?

Again Wasp, go check Harpoon3 out and download the demo.......you want to learn modern Naval warfare, there is no better tool to learn it.

Ethier that or get in a rubber dingy, get a bottle rocket or something along those lines, go to faslane or portsmouth and see how good their defenses are LOL!

So you think a single missile is capable of takeing down a carrier?
....Think again..

Non-Nuke NO, but the warhead in a shipwreck is much more deadly.


But what does it own rights to?

I doubt very much but there might be a little - software NONE


A sunburn cant take down the carrier on its own but they can take down the escorts, which are the most dangerous thing, the airwing can be taken out by surface ships.


You really must understand how a carrier battlegroup works, the escorts ARE there to take the hits if they must come.



Yes, but the hawk eye can be taken out to, they fly with escorts but radar works both ways.


The envelope would mean that their were no SAMS left in the Aegis ships and that the CAPS are no more...


Ah, but can It be every where in the fleet? No, it can be only in a specific area.


Again it is battlespace you must try to understand, that Prowler is not nowhere near the threat, if the enemy gets past the CAP the Prowler would need to RUN or LAND. See Harpoon3


The US or UK cant have sunburn data since its never been sold to them and they have never aquired them.

Are you sure about this one? ..........nevermind


Most likely if put into real use the sunburn would be part of a co-ordinated attack. If they got a few loose against the carrier that wouldn't be soo good.

It is also a coordinated defense!


Also wasn't it an aegis class ship that was sunk by the iraqi's with an exorcet?

No not at all, a Perry Class FFG was not even as capable of some of the Brit FFG's, they were cheap and EXPENDABLE, single M13 launchers and a 'fair' radar. An Aegis ship has VLS and many more directors as to have 'xx' missles in the air at once. They were designed for saturation attacks from Backfire bombers and Kitchen missiles.




Any more questions?

[edit on 16-2-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by edsinger
Never knew the figures but that seems about right except for one thing, I would imagine that the DOD has access to stuff that even if 'invented' by Intel, we will not get for more than 10 years..

Like I said, I had a 100 MHz and the fastest money could buy was 133Mhz, and this guy was playing with an 800 MhZ, now maybe it was not a Pentium but with that speed, heat and therefore power was still an issue...

How about word cluster? You dont need to use one processor in military hardware and for military its really bad idea to use alpha phase hardware cause everything have to "click", but its true that Intel and other semiconductor industry corporations make products that are every way faster on cluster use and more costy made from more quality components etc. But that goes in commercial sector too not only military, US military supercomputers are from same components than some R&D in corporations, its just about size (numbers) of the cluster in the end to see its raw power when comparing em. Conclusion is that military no doubt doesnt use any hardware that is only in alpha phase and by so have any special equipment over others, its just more quality products that has bigger price tag, you cant compare those to desktop machine anyway. 4ghz vs 70 teraflops.

Originally posted by edsinger
Non-Nuke NO, but the warhead in a shipwreck is much more deadly.

Ah, but the shipwreck hasnt got the same kind of approach the sunburn has.

I doubt very much but there might be a little - software NONE

Ofcourse no software, big mister gates has a firm place there.

You really must understand how a carrier battlegroup works, the escorts ARE there to take the hits if they must come.

With out escorts a carrier is alone, that means its lost a serois amount of protection.
It cant run because its planes cant take off or land, it cant stay still or be sunk. Whats it gona do?

The envelope would mean that their were no SAMS left in the Aegis ships and that the CAPS are no more...

Actually no, a ship can shoot down any plane.
The aegis would need to be near the carrier to save and if not, a little torp would handle it.

Again it is battlespace you must try to understand, that Prowler is not nowhere near the threat, if the enemy gets past the CAP the Prowler would need to RUN or LAND. See Harpoon3

Yeah, the prowler can be shot down.
So can the CAP.

Are you sure about this one? ..........nevermind

America tried to get, but couldnt.

It is also a coordinated defense!

Yeah, but a coordinated defence mainly against air attack by enemy fleets, not against an airforce.
Even with the US navies 12 battle groups they would still be ot gunned and out manouvered.

No not at all, a Perry Class FFG was not even as capable of some of the Brit FFG's, they were cheap and EXPENDABLE, single M13 launchers and a 'fair' radar. An Aegis ship has VLS and many more directors as to have 'xx' missles in the air at once. They were designed for saturation attacks from Backfire bombers and Kitchen missiles.

I dont think I like the term , expendable for ANY ship. Dont you agree?
Yeah, but an aegis ship can only carry so many weapons, now imagine the attack in waves from the european forces.

Any more questions?
[edit on 16-2-2005 by edsinger]

Do you like the idea of the smaller carriers being built or the bigger ones?

[edit on 17-2-2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by devilwaspAh, but the shipwreck hasnt got the same kind of approach the sunburn has.

Look as I have explained, if it gets to the pop-up stage then there already has been a failure in the 'envelope around the carrier' at battle conditions, the launch platform for a sunburn cant get in range to even launch, but the shipwreck, a mach1+ missile at wave top height and at least 16 of them at once is a bigger problem altogether.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Ofcourse no software, big mister gates has a firm place there.

It is actually the programmers that are the resource...

Originally posted by devilwasp
With out escorts a carrier is alone, that means its lost a serois amount of protection.It cant run because its planes cant take off or land, it cant stay still or be sunk. Whats it gona do?

Again you must understand, a carrier is NOT made to be alone, if it gets in that shape then sure there will be trouble. That is not how the envelope works though, you keep talking about what ifs, well # man if they run out of fuel for the aircraft and a supply ship cant get to them then they are in trouble. Many things can go wrong but a US CVBG is made for 30 days of SUSTAINED combat operations and 30 days is a long time to get out of range of land based aircraft. No other nation has a carrier even close to the same league (this includes the cutter the De Gaul)

Originally posted by devilwaspActually no, a ship can shoot down any plane.The aegis would need to be near the carrier to save and if not, a little torp would handle it.

Wanna bet on that? The Aegis is NOT near the carrier at all if you mean a couple of miles, the AEGIS ships PICKET!
Torp? That would be the most likely downfall of a carrier, not a sunburn or a group of sunburns.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Yeah, the prowler can be shot down.So can the CAP.

If 'whomever' can get close enough? Just what Navy can even challenge the airspace dominance of the US Navy at sea? answer? NONE.

Originally posted by devilwasp
America tried to get, but couldnt.

Dont be so sure about that one....when the Chinese bought them there was a big worry for a little while...but it has since been dealt with.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Yeah, but a coordinated defence mainly against air attack by enemy fleets, not against an airforce.Even with the US navies 12 battle groups they would still be ot gunned and out manouvered.

And by whom? Thats funny.

Originally posted by devilwasp
I dont think I like the term , expendable for ANY ship. Dont you agree?
Yeah, but an aegis ship can only carry so many weapons, now imagine the attack in waves from the european forces.

Not at all, in Modern Naval Combat, you will take what you can get and if a $30 million dollar FFG can take the hit instead of a $20 Billion dollar CVN, then it has done its job. The trick is to make sure that it does not need to take a hit. Again 300 miles in every direction of the CVBG anything that moves is toast...........with the exception of a sub but that is another topic...

Originally posted by devilwasp
Do you like the idea of the smaller carriers being built or the bigger ones?

Well somewhat I like the smaller ones but the flexibility of the 120,000 tons gives much more survivability to the unit. There are pro's and cons to each and for now I will stick with the 90+ air wing instead of a 30+. When the amount of support aircraft can be lowered, then we can talk.

Both "SUNBURN" and the even more devastating "ONYX" are able to sink carriers thats what they were made to do Part 1. www.joevialls.co.uk... Part 2. www.vialls.com...

Originally posted by edsinger
Look as I have explained, if it gets to the pop-up stage then there already has been a failure in the 'envelope around the carrier' at battle conditions, the launch platform for a sunburn cant get in range to even launch, but the shipwreck, a mach1+ missile at wave top height and at least 16 of them at once is a bigger problem altogether.

The 150 mile screeen is well within the range of the sunburn.

It is actually the programmers that are the resource...

Yeah, you can use ANY program but it wont do it as well as one wrote specifically for it, still a bad job though.....

Again you must understand, a carrier is NOT made to be alone, if it gets in that shape then sure there will be trouble. That is not how the envelope works though, you keep talking about what ifs, well # man if they run out of fuel for the aircraft and a supply ship cant get to them then they are in trouble. Many things can go wrong but a US CVBG is made for 30 days of SUSTAINED combat operations and 30 days is a long time to get out of range of land based aircraft. No other nation has a carrier even close to the same league (this includes the cutter the De Gaul)

Yeah, thats what I think is the major flaw in military thnking, depending on the carrier.
The small carriers should eliminate this though...

Wanna bet on that? The Aegis is NOT near the carrier at all if you mean a couple of miles, the AEGIS ships PICKET!
Torp? That would be the most likely downfall of a carrier, not a sunburn or a group of sunburns.

The aegis ship could be taken out by a torp is what i meant, once thats down the sunburns could sort it.

If 'whomever' can get close enough? Just what Navy can even challenge the airspace dominance of the US Navy at sea? answer? NONE.

Actually if the european navies done so with airforce support then it would be quite easy.

Dont be so sure about that one....when the Chinese bought them there was a big worry for a little while...but it has since been dealt with.

Not really, they just developed a new defence which IMO would stop ANY missile , metal storm.
Thats seem to quell wories.

And by whom? Thats funny.

The european forces, I dont think an F-18 can beat a griphy or a typhoon.
Although I dont really think we would be sending any harriers there lol!

Not at all, in Modern Naval Combat, you will take what you can get and if a $30 million dollar FFG can take the hit instead of a $20 Billion dollar CVN, then it has done its job. The trick is to make sure that it does not need to take a hit. Again 300 miles in every direction of the CVBG anything that moves is toast...........with the exception of a sub but that is another topic...

Not really, a ship with anti aircraft weapons would be safe.
Still takeing a hit for a carrier is a good stratagy but a bit scary.

Well somewhat I like the smaller ones but the flexibility of the 120,000 tons gives much more survivability to the unit. There are pro's and cons to each and for now I will stick with the 90+ air wing instead of a 30+. When the amount of support aircraft can be lowered, then we can talk.

I like the smaller ones myself, they look and sound better.

Originally posted by devilwaspThe 150 mile screeen is well within the range of the sunburn.

150 mile screen? # man with the 14's that was damn near 350-400nm, now its at least 250nm

Originally posted by devilwaspYeah, thats what I think is the major flaw in military thnking, depending on the carrier.The small carriers should eliminate this though...

No the smaller carriers with not be near as flexible and will have to be bunched anyway to have the necessary firepower.

Originally posted by devilwasp
The aegis ship could be taken out by a torp is what i meant, once thats down the sunburns could sort it.

Do you know what the antisub capabilities of the Burke and Tico's are?

Originally posted by devilwasp
Actually if the European navies done so with air force support then it would be quite easy.

Sorry no ill meant here but , not even a chance , unless in the English channel, open ocean the European navies could not even handle the 6th Fleet.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Not really, they just developed a new defense which IMO would stop ANY missile , metal storm.Thats seem to quell wories.

Yeah nice concept if they can make it work, same theory is behind the phalanx and Goalkeeper, 'wall of lead'

Originally posted by devilwasp
The european forces, I dont think an F-18 can beat a griphy or a typhoon.
Although I dont really think we would be sending any harriers there lol!

Look the Typhoon is a nice AC, outclasses the Griffin, and you can count the Rafael in that also, but the F-18E can hold its own.......F-18C/D you would be correct.

Originally posted by devilwaspNot really, a ship with anti aircraft weapons would be safe.Still takeing a hit for a carrier is a good stratagy but a bit scary.

But a necessary one...go check Harpoon3, do a net search.

Originally posted by devilwaspI like the smaller ones myself, they look and sound better.

But it has limitations, mainly in firepower...