Meeting with Trump emboldens anti-vaccine activists

a reply to: Krazysh0t

you have failed to furnish even one citation from a reputable source showing me the myriad ways in which vaccine makers are held accountable.

giving me evidence from your personal experience is called an appeal to authority. It may sound convincing to some people to say "i work there, so i know"....but in argumentation that doesnt hold water.

so please, enlighten me. I promise i will read any links that prove your point.

here, thought you might enjoy this....

and yes i know theyre only covering compounding performed in pharmacies....but the real point of the article is the lax FDA OVERSIGHT of that aspect of drug manufacture and retail, which is exactly what i was talking about ( the laxness) and what you refuse to admit is a reality.

www.forbes.com...

a reply to: tribal

Lol. I literally linked you to the regulations that govern pharmaceutical manufacturing processes (which you clearly didn't read). No evidence? Psh...

PS: Your link isn't about vaccines either. It's just a standard corruption issue that ALL industries face. Corruption is ubiquitous across society and humans tend to try to cut corners for all reasons. That isn't evidence of what you are claiming though (that vaccines are dangerous).

a reply to: Krazysh0t

your link was invalid....i think this is what you wanted...

www.accessdata.fda.gov...


and in spite of whatever rock solid regs the FDA has, which you appear to trust implicitly....there are plenty of horror stories of drugs making FDA approval that were later pulled. So....which FDA should we trust...the one that approved the meds, or the one that decided later "oops, guess we got that one wrong" after tens of thousands of people were dead?

originally posted by: tribal
a reply to: Krazysh0t

your link was invalid....i think this is what you wanted...

www.accessdata.fda.gov...

No my link works. THAT link doesn't work. "Page not found." But hey. Find the source where ever you want. It's not like the regulations are going to be written differently on a different site or anything.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: seasonal

All I know is I refused to get the flu vaccine for years prior and last year suffered with two different bouts of influenza which resulted in bronchitis then turning to pneumonia, and lasting three months. I phoned my doctor's office and asked if this year's flu vaccine covered all three strains and was informed it covers four, so I decided to try it. So, far, so good.

Me too.

Now, I make sure I keep up to date.

I support science

a reply to: seasonal

Yes is a fund is call National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, but the government still can not link the deadly or harmful side effects to vaccines, but they still compensate.

a reply to: Annee

To be honest, I don't get the yearly flu shot. Not because I fear for my intelligence or anything. It's just that I've never in my life gotten the flu. Vaccines are dead versions of the virus and it is possible to contract the virus through a vaccine. It's rare but it happens. So I figure if I haven't had problems before then I'm good for now. I'll wait until I get the flu for the first time in my life to do so. Either that or wait until I'm much older and my immune system isn't working as well as it does now.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: seasonal

All I know is I refused to get the flu vaccine for years prior and last year suffered with two different bouts of influenza which resulted in bronchitis then turning to pneumonia, and lasting three months. I phoned my doctor's office and asked if this year's flu vaccine covered all three strains and was informed it covers four, so I decided to try it. So, far, so good.

Me too.

Now, I make sure I keep up to date.

I support science

I support science too and go with what works for me.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

ok, i apologize for my non working link. I incorrectly assumed i could copy and paste the URL...

if you type "Code of Federal Regulations Title 21" into the search box it takes you straight to the regs you were referring to.

www.fda.gov...


As to your link, please tell me where on the page it takes me to the FDA regs you referred to.


As to accountability and regs....im well acquainted with them, i worked for the military for a few years. I'm sure youre aware they have SOPs and regs for almost everything. As someone who worked in several different roles for the military i was able to see first hand and even participate in skirting or fabricating compliance.

you see, thats the rub here. In the real world, you can write any regs you want....but compliance by gatekeepers and agents of various entities is where the battle is won or lost. An agency can prescribe anything that want....but in the real world people can fabricate reports, cook the books, put on a show....and its even better when the regulating agency lets you know when theyre going to do the audit sometimes weeks in advance. Its always nice to have plenty of warning.

Care to coment on the disconnect between planning and practice? Between theory and reality? Between having all your documentation ready for inspection, machines properly cleaned, etc....in essence housekeeping, versus the real world effects of the products your creating and selling? Because in my experience, i have seen a great chasm between the ideal....and the real.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I don't get the flu, but once every 10 years, usually a very mild version.

But what I noticed is the new array of medications readily available to fight the flu if you happen to go to the doctor and complain of having flu.

I never had asthma, never had problems with breathing, no even after getting bronchitis that I only had 1 time in my life.

And it was gone within a week of antibiotics.


But the last time I went to the doctor with the flu, 3 years ago, they make me get into an inhaling machine, then they got me an Inhaler that I never in my life have used before.

The inhaler got my hart rate so bad I thought I was going to have a hart attack.

I just took the darn inhaler and disposed of it in the trash.

I feel sorry for anybody that have to use that nasty stuff.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Annee

To be honest, I don't get the yearly flu shot. Not because I fear for my intelligence or anything. It's just that I've never in my life gotten the flu. Vaccines are dead versions of the virus and it is possible to contract the virus through a vaccine. It's rare but it happens. So I figure if I haven't had problems before then I'm good for now. I'll wait until I get the flu for the first time in my life to do so. Either that or wait until I'm much older and my immune system isn't working as well as it does now.

I'm 70. I hate going to doctors. I was sick off and on for almost a year - - with congestion. Not smart on my part.

I finally went to the doctor, got on antibiotics - - - and got flu shot after I was well. Enough was enough.

I'm well aware what virus vaccines are. I made sure I was healthy when I got it.

a reply to: marg6043

As someone who had asthma as a child and now has to use an inhaler periodically from time-to-time for allergies that stuff (usually Ventalin) is a stimulant. That is why it races your heart. The stimulant kicks the mucus out of your chest and helps you breath better. They also put stimulants into nasal sprays to clear out sinus congestion.

Yes it can make your heart race, but usually that only happens to me if I'm overdosing it. Something I did once when I was a child because the inhaler wasn't clearing up my cough properly (usually just two puffs and I'm good to go). I probably had walking pneumonia (or at least sever bronchitis) at the time though.

But in any case, if you had asthma and had to use an inhaler those things are life savers. You have no idea how relieving puffing on one of those things is when your chest has constricted and tightened to the point that you have to sit rod straight up to get any reasonable breathing going. Especially with how immediate it clears up your breathing. Well maybe you have if you've ever used a nasal spray for a running or congested nose. Though even that doesn't clear up as fast as relieving chest congestion does with an inhaler.

a reply to: Annee

Well yeah. When I'm 70 I may be singing a different tune about flu shots, too. After all I am well aware that the older you get the less your body works correctly.

a reply to: tribal

Dude I served in the Army too. There is a BIG difference between the UCMJ, FMs, TMs, and such and federal pharmaceutical regulations. Like it isn't even comparable. For instance, the UCMJ is literally its own legal organization that sits outside US judicial review. So your comparison here doesn't work and is a bad source to use to talk about pharmaceutical regulations.

Also I have written SOPs for my company for the IT department. It's not easy and they have to go through a rigorous approval process from our own QA department followed by a signoff from the effected department heads. THEN when an audit happens (and again they happen all the time) those SOPs WILL be reviewed by the auditors. They will question how they are written and write up the WHOLE company if the SOPs are found to be lacking. The auditors will probably give you time to fix the mistakes but if the company continues to be deficient in these areas they WILL be shut down. For instance, there is an SOP I'm maintaining that has 21 revisions for it so far because of push back from auditors, and EVERY time an SOP is changed it has to go through a whole new rigorous change control process that involves QA and department head signoffs.

Seriously, I'm as close to an SME on this matter you are going to get and you are wrong about how the pharmaceutical industry works and behaves. Yes, there is corruption, but you are being foolish if you think it is widespread to the point of concern. Plus these things ARE rooted out eventually too.

a reply to: Annee

the thing is everyone has their personal experience that goes a long way toward convincing them one way or the other.

my father is a nurse and gets his flu shot every year and has said that he hasnt had the flu in years.

I have never had a flu shot and the last time i am pretty sure i had the flu was 27 years ago. Blind luck? I dont think so. Im a world traveler, have worked around kids and other disease vectors and i just dont think taking a vaccine all by itself will make or break your health. I think there is far more to it than that.

i know people who have kids who were never vaccinated. They are all adults now and have never been seriously ill though they are world travelers (missionaries)

There have never been an serious studies comparing groups of people to ascertain how much of a role, if any, vaccines have in staying free from disease.

On the contrary, there have been numerous studies showing groups who have experienced adverse effects from vaccines. The BBC has a great docu on a pro vaccine doctor in africa who discovered increase morbidity under the co administration or successive administration of certain vaccines. The WHO sent a team to investigate and hopefully refute his findings, when they werent able to do that the WHO shut it down and tried to silence his findings.

Thats the real world.

originally posted by: tribal
a reply to: Annee

the thing is everyone has their personal experience that goes a long way toward convincing them one way or the other.

I'm telling you right now - - if your kid is not vaccinated - - keep him away from mine.

Polio has almost been eradicated from the world. Except in areas that have refused vaccinations.

Statistics do speak loudly.

Has nothing to do with personal opinion.

Can missionaries travel to other countries without vaccinations? I some how doubt it.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

it appears you have your mind made up, so discussion and providing counter narrative evidence is probably a waste of time.

I appreciate your vast experience, It certainly counts for something. However to the person who is the "exception" to the rule and is injured or killed by an approved product there is no amount of "yes but we maintain rigorous accountability" that will comfort.

In essence, people like you, your organization, and others, play it by the numbers. Outliers, exceptions, x factors, the faceless victims appear to be rather inconsequential when compared to the much more vast "success" or lack of obvious injury.

i think the trolley dilemma provides a poignant reflection on how we choose to deal with this issue.

theconversation.com...

originally posted by: tribal
a reply to: Krazysh0t

it appears you have your mind made up, so discussion and providing counter narrative evidence is probably a waste of time.

I do. Yes. I support science and statistics. And a healthy world.

Am I aware nothings perfect or 100% - - of course.

“The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few” - - Spock

OR

"It is the greatest good to the greatest number of people which is the measure of right and wrong." -- Jeremy Bentham

a reply to: Annee

youre living in a dream world. The fact is, in any country with a healthy travel and tourism industry or with wide access to the rest of the wrolds population it is a certainty you and your child are coming in contact with unvaccinated or incomplete vaccinated people from other countries or even our own country all of the time.


vaccine efficacy varies widely depending on the shot, we know this, but somehow in discussions like this it seems the easiest and more preferable reflex is to resort to the incorrect generalization that all vaccines provide the same rate of efficacy, which we know they do not.

There are numerous studies that have found that because of the highly varied biology of the population there are literally a small percentage of people who cannot be vaccinated against certain things....their bodies simply refuse to produce enough antibodies to confer the fabled "protection" they purport to. Should we put those people in special camps for no fault of their own?

So...if you live or visit any major metropolitan areas, rest assured, people are coughing, sneezing, breathing on you who have either not been vaccinated (not as likely) or incompletely vaccinated (much more likely) and you dont even know it, but would rather freak out on a message board instead of face the reality of your everyday existence.


remember disneyland? yup...probably a foreigner...

www.nbcnews.com...

Herd immunity doesnt work because the "herd" is never static....there are always people with questionable vaccine status making incursions into the herd and exposing the unvaccinated members of that herd (babies, immunocompromised) to whatever contagions theyre carrying.

www.vaccines.gov...


about people with antibody deficiency problems (they cannot have immunity conferred by vaccines)

primaryimmune.org...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not if government forces it. Or do you not understand this is what my point is?