Originally posted by Valhall


Sorry, but that's not what it says. You can thank good ol' King James for that mistranslation.

Thou shalt not murder. < ==== In this particular instance, semantics result in a heapin' helpin' of difference.

And for the sake of logic, let's see how this could play out. Murder being the taking of another human's life based solely on anger, passion, without true cause. Where as - if God told you to - it aint murder...it's a killin'.

**

That has to be the most evil thing i've heard in a long time I'll agree that the King James Translations resulted in kill, but what it means is that you shall not kill another human being unless it's for self defence. Murder is killing someone with an intent to kill previously before committing the act, if a god was to tell you to murder (which I don't believe and a lot of the old testament is crap that we don't follow and untrue) it would still be murder and a violation of our father's commandments and it would be a sin. You can't just justify murder like that, as I said that is incredibly evil and I am shocked you would say that.

thanks,
drfunk

Do I even need to explain this any further? The answer is a resounding NO!!!!

Originally posted by drfunk

That has to be the most evil thing i've heard in a long time I'll agree that the King James Translations resulted in kill, but what it means is that you shall not kill another human being unless it's for self defence. Murder is killing someone with an intent to kill previously before committing the act, if a god was to tell you to murder (which I don't believe and a lot of the old testament is crap that we don't follow and untrue) it would still be murder and a violation of our father's commandments and it would be a sin. You can't just justify murder like that, as I said that is incredibly evil and I am shocked you would say that.

thanks,
drfunk

drfunk...you need to get out more There's nothing evil in anything I said. I'm not particularly sure what part you misunderstood so severely, but I assure you - I haven't a lick of malice in me wee l'il head..or thumpin' gizzard of a heart, for that matter.

You're just jealous because you don't hear the voices.

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by USER
I have to agree with DRFUNK.



THOU SHALT NOT KILL.


It doesn't say "thou shalt not kill unless it's someone of another religion"...

It just says "Thou shalt not kill".

Sorry, but that's not what it says. You can thank good ol' King James for that mistranslation.

Thou shalt not murder. < ==== In this particular instance, semantics result in a heapin' helpin' of difference.

And for the sake of logic, let's see how this could play out. Murder being the taking of another human's life based solely on anger, passion, without true cause. Where as - if God told you to - it aint murder...it's a killin'.

**

If you want to start splitting hairs, the whole bloody Bible has been changed to suit the Church and let's face it, religion is a great tool for governments to get people to comply. MURDER or KILL it's all the same. If you can do it and hold your head up high and walk down the street with no shame.....

well, quite frankly you need to read beyond the words.





[edit on 25-1-2005 by USER]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Then you retract your earlier statement that God will find forgiveness. If you can acknowledge that you are wrong, you do so knowing in your heart that God does not want you to kill for any reason. But more than that, you do so knowing that within your very soul lies a non-describable force that tells you it is wrong. Is that no so?

I think I’m missing your point here, the reason I would seek forgiveness in this case is because I knowingly committed an act that was against God’s will.

I don’t know that I have an inherent drive telling me that killing is wrong, but I do know that I have been taught that for as long as I have been alive, which equates to a reflexive answer to the question “Is killing wrong?”. Animals in nature kill each other as a matter of survival, and we do not look at them as evil. Just as we kill a cow in the pasture to for our own survival, is that wrong? We obviously don’t need the cow, there are plenty of plants we could use for survival, but we feel no remorse to go and put a bullet in a defenseless animal’s head to further our own means (for what it’s worth, I am not a vegetarian and I hunt on occasion, so I am not trying to take the moral high ground here). What separates us from them when it comes to killing others? What separates us from them at all?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Therein lies the big issue between believing and hoping, faith and understanding....The missing parameter is the realization of: what if I haven’t thought this through properly?

I have gone through the range of emotions when it comes to God, from hate to thanks for the chance to be alive today. There are numerous occasions when I have questioned the entire scheme and questioned his judgment, and I have yet to receive an answer, which leaves me to my own devices to attempt to find one. And left with multiple religions all with different ways of getting to eternity, each claiming that they are the only way, how can I find a concrete answer? How can God place us in that environment and expect us all to make the right decision? Again, more questions than answers. All I can do is hope for the best.

Anyway, I hope this answers your questions. And Amuk, what religion (if any) do you practice?

Originally posted by USERIf you want to start splitting hairs, the whole bloody Bible has been changed to suit the Church and let's face it, religion is a great tool for governments to get people to comply.

So how do you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Isaiah for one? Enoch? Do I need to go on? Changed? That is the claim of the Muslim and yet they can not explain the accuracy of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Thats actually a funny answer and I split my beer while reading it

[edit on 25-1-2005 by edsinger]

Originally posted by USER

If you want to start splitting hairs, the whole bloody Bible has been changed to suit the Church and let's face it, religion is a great tool for governments to get people to comply. MURDER or KILL it's all the same. If you can do it and hold your head up high and walk down the street with no shame.....

well, quite frankly you need to read beyond the words.





[edit on 25-1-2005 by USER]

Well it's no secret to historians that religion has been used time and time again to sway people. Yes, often it has been used by the church but more commonly, it is used by political leaders. It is a VERY powerful tool Those that are being infulenced do not even know it is happening!! And yes, it is usually used to get people to kill, most commonly through advocating and "justifying" war. Anone though who would follow a political leader while he claims religious insight or privy to a devine message is a weak person, confused about their own religion. That's not an uncommon thing, especially today when we are bombarded on all sides by conflicting messages.

Originally posted by edsinger
So how do you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Isaiah for one? Enoch? Do I need to go on?

Some of these are the very ones that call for the killing of unbelievers so how, in at least an OT respect, does it make you any different that the Muslims calling for Jihad?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by edsinger
So how do you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Isaiah for one? Enoch? Do I need to go on?

Some of these are the very ones that call for the killing of unbelievers so how, in at least an OT respect, does it make you any different that the Muslims calling for Jihad?

Yes it does.

One difference I can think off right off hand, once a muslim always a muslim. Christianity does not demand that, you can leave anytime without worring about a death sentence.

I mentioned Isaiah becuase the 2000 year old version is 99% the same with what we have today, the only differences being syntax and things of that nature. The meaning is spot on!

Originally posted by edsinger
Yes it does.

You are dodging the question Ed....LOL

How is the call in the OT to kill the unbelievers any different then the Muslims Jihad?

Other than the fact that Christians dont do it these days?

[edit on 26-1-2005 by Amuk]

Nukunuku- Everybody knows it in their hearts,

Touche! They absolutely do, it has been planted there, just as the genetic code has been, and any excuse to do otherwise is just that…an excuse!

Valhall- Thou shalt not murder.

I was awaiting this. Thou shalt not murder! And what defines murder? Is it the laws listed within Leviticus as decreed by God? Why yes it is. But is it where God promises to give to Abraham’s descendents all the land as far as his eyes can see, and so determine that in fact, he is not giving anything, where Moses has to enlist young men into the military, kill and be killed in order for God to ‘give” them this land? No! Gen. 12:7 & Nu.1:3. Let us not seek to find foggy bottom here and blend biblical self-importance and delusion with fact, for if God’s intention was to give, he would give, and if there was killing intended, he showed quite well that he controls the environment where a pillar of fire was but a mere thought, and where Moses needed lift only his arm and rod to part a sea.

- Valhall- The Pauline principles whether followed or not - have nothing to do with what a "sin" is. If a woman stands up and preaches, she is not sinning...she's just not following Paul's preferences.

Paul contradicted himself on the role of women.

Romans 16:1 – I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is servant of the church which is at Cenchrea…and that ye assist her (the church) in whatsoever business she hath need of you:…

followed by

Co14:34:35...for they are commanded to be under obedience…if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands for it is a shame for women to speak in the church

There is no confusion here as to whom he addresses in Romans, unless it is the equivalent of a Biblical a boy named Sue, and to which sex Sue happens to be that he later subjugates.

This is a God which everyone of you would agree is omnipotent, yet you all find excuses within the texts of the covers to suggest that he would set aside his power and have man fight against man in order to achieve that gift he says he bestowed on them. This is a preposterous position, and one that has received no deliberation by you. I await one, just one plausible reason why God would send to slaughter his chosen people, to make good on his promise to deed a piece of real estate to the Israelites both of which he himself created. This omnipotent and omniscient God who according to this very chronology, turned his back on them so they say. They are men, mere mortals, filed with themselves and cannot see the forest for the trees, so they blame God for their own failings. I have said before and I say again; no one defends God, and I want to know why. Why you are so willing to believe the nonsense us lesser beings write in his name and blame him for?

What exactly then is the message that all of Israel’s enemies receive in the end after this 5,764 year and counting lesson? They are dead! He sanctioned their slaughter which you obligingly endorse. Is that what you truly want to agree to, or are you so afraid that to disagree with written words you would invoke his wrath? Surely you do not believe that he so antagonistic and vengeful that he will resurrect Israel’s enemies, and make his own creation suffer 1,000 years or even an eternity of hell, do you? I vehemently, say no!

Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by para

I think I’m missing your point here, the reason I would seek forgiveness in this case is because I knowingly committed an act that was against God’s will. I don’t see where I have missed anything. My question to you was clear I thought, in how would you feel knowing that you took the life of an innocent in your quest for vengeance, as you claimed: “I believe that you will be forgiven for your actions.” and how then, would you respond to the direct and irrefutable by God himself that he told you not to kill.

In retrospect I see you actually provided an open-ended answer, such that it was: “the choice seems obvious.” Where, to me the obvious is that when faced with the lawmaker and his direct statement, there is no excuse. Forgive me then for presuming you had completed your statement and that you thought that your obvious would be mine. Henceforth Iwill be certain to seek a definitive response.

That set aside then, you say:

I think I’m missing your point here, the reason I would seek forgiveness in this case is because I knowingly committed an act that was against God’s will.

And I say once more, you seek forgiveness because you were wrong. There is no need to seek forgiveness if you know you are correct. Therefore, you either hope to deceive him with your invocation, or you acknowledge you were wrong. And did I not state this?

Animals in nature kill each other as a matter of survival, and we do not look at them as evil.

I agree, we do not. Nor do we look at animals as our intelligent equal, or as having a God. So this is irrelevant.

And left with multiple religions all with different ways of getting to eternity, each claiming that they are the only way, how can I find a concrete answer?

I already supplied what I believe is the answer to that, you quoted it, yet did not notice it:

But more than that, you do so knowing that within your very soul lies a non-describable force that tells you it is wrong. Is that no so?

Anyway, I hope this answers your questions.

My questions in the grand scheme of things, are just questions of someone who like you, will die.

No, there is abosolutely no reason one human should kill another human in cold blood for "God". Self-Defence(or defence of your family) sure... In a just war(if there is such a thing) Sure. Any other time it is unacceptable, period! No matter what some book says.

EDIT: If the Bible/God or Jesus told you to go jump off a cliff would you?

[edit on 26-1-2005 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
In retrospect I see you actually provided an open-ended answer, such that it was: “the choice seems obvious.” Where, to me the obvious is that when faced with the lawmaker and his direct statement, there is no excuse.

Well, I think I’m with you on a lot of this but I may have managed to misconstrue what I was trying to say. My definitive answer to the question you originally posed is no, I would not kill the man again knowing that the child was there and that I would spend an eternity in hell.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
And I say once more, you seek forgiveness because you were wrong. There is no need to seek forgiveness if you know you are correct. Therefore, you either hope to deceive him with your invocation, or you acknowledge you were wrong. And did I not state this?

I have no intent to deceive God, personally I believe that he knows our every thought and therefore an attempt deception would be futile. I would acknowledge that I was wrong, and await judgment.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Nor do we look at animals as our intelligent equal, or as having a God. So this is irrelevant.

I would not be so quick to cast the animal argument aside; however it is probably out of the scope of the original question. Basically I have always questioned what distinguishes us from animals, apart from intelligence. They too are creatures of God, who "sin" by our standards and are offered no hope of an eternity in heaven. Is every animal on earth resigned to an eternity in hell, or are the rules different for them?

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
quote: But more than that, you do so knowing that within your very soul lies a non-describable force that tells you it is wrong. Is that no so?

I don’t think I can provide you with a concrete answer on this, as I alluded to in my earlier post I don’t know that we have an inherent sense of right and wrong. I wonder if our values aren’t inherited from society as we mature, rather than imparted on us by a divine force. And since religion has been and is such a popular issue in our society, our values are primarily derived from the sources of religion, i.e. the holy books, and are passed off as divine in nature since they match what we have come see as inherent.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
My questions in the grand scheme of things, are just questions of someone who like you, will die.

Death certainly is excellent motivation to seek answers.



EDIT: no->not


[edit on 1/26/05 by para]

doest thou nottest understandith?

I really wanted to jump onto the quotes, show the full context and then post some quotes of my own but after so many pages of back and forth and others' desire for me to not do that, I'll put the Book down and talk more on understanding than print.

Non-Christians. If you want to determine if a Christian is on target or not, please consider: A Christian is a believer in God and follower of Christ, who he was, what he said and what he did. Pick one gospel (aka record of Christs' time on earth), give it a read-through, then by all means use what Christ says when questioning a Christian. What are they going to say? The wars of the Old Testament conquer Christ's Word? How ridiculous is that? That's analogous to saying "Since slavery came before Martin Luther King, slavery is the right thing to do." Even 10 commandment followers can tell you different. There were at one time wars. This is apparently the only thing people understood in this era. There was a focus on 'taking back the land given', but I don't see where God-believers were ever there to 'conquer the world'.

Christians, how did you feel about Jesus, teacher and saviour of mankind, getting totally tortured by what he had to say. If you have an ounce of feeling in you, you should be thinking, "This is not right" with a bunch of empathy flooding in. He was tortured and then what? Killed. Necessary though it may be, we see the pain of death in someone we should be caring about. Why in the world would you cause anybody else to feel that kind of pain? Why on God's green earth would you do that to someone else's family? Does this effectively spread the 'good news' and instructed by Jesus? Pick up a gospel and read it again. Then give Corinthians a read-through too.

Kudos to those who recognize the longing for peace in the Old Testament, and the message of love in the new.

[edit on 26-1-2005 by saint4God]

NO, NEVER EVER ! this takes seven pages to answer?