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Is it OK to murder in the name of God?

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posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by para...
God is justified because he created man and therefore is also given the power to destroy us.
I would like to philosophically discuss this. I can understand this position, as it seems to say that since he decided to create us and he has decreed that he will kill us, then it is only he who has that right. Having said that, the philosophical side of it comes into play here:

Ultimately, it is my belief that murder is wrong. However, I believe that we have a forgiving God who knows what our intent was when we acted. If you killed me because I broke into your house with a gun and tried to torture and kill you, I believe that you will be forgiven for your actions.
Forgiveness then it seems is your hope that he has somehow imparted some of his divinity to man so that man may feel empowered to act as he and decide that they too have the authority to take the life of that which God created.

Expounding further then. Your home is attacked, and the perpetrator kills your family, you then feel justified by the inheritance given by God to seek out and avenge their murder on the basis that your life too was threatened. You follow the killer, set your sights on him as he enters his front door, fires and the bullet pierces right through the one you sought and into the young child greeting him. The young child's mother only understands that you killed her innocent child, and not knowing that her husband attacked your home, sees you as an intruder trying to kill her family, she chases after you, finds you and kills you.

You all arrive at God's feet. He wants nothing to do with the man who killed your family and made you feel threatened, and so he says: You were told: Thou shalt not murder! and sentences him to hell. Next up is you, he pronounces the same judgement, and you say; but Lord, I did not mean to kill that child, it was self-defence and he was in the wrong place, and I believe oh benevolent father, that you will forgive me for taking that child's life away from him because it was not my intent. The Lord answers; my commandment says thou shalt not kill, and you aimed and fired your gun with the intent to do so, to take away a life which I have made and I alone have the right to cease. Then he says: vengence is mine, not yours! It is I who decreed what is right and what is wrong, not you! You now plead your case futher and state: I am a good Christian, Lord. I believe in Jesus and follow his teachings, have loved him and therefore I love you. At this time, Jesus makes his appearance, and says to you: How can you say you follow my teachings when I told you to turn the other cheek? Do you not understand that everyone will be judged by their maker? If you cannot wait for my father's court, then why am I to believe that you can wait for the judgement I promised?


You find yourself in a whirlwind of a conundrum, a fleeting nano-second seems an eternity, and you realise that all of your faith and how you spend the rest of eternity rests in your hope that you had an out. At that point in time if you could place yourself there, would you wish you had made a different choice, or would you feel satisfaction, and accept a possible fate in hell?




posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by fourth horseman
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden BEAM in your own eye?"


So if I judge God to be wrong for ordering the murder of children he will hold me to the same?

I can live with that.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by soldier_of_the_lord
Old T, New T both the same...apart from a few things that are not needed now such as sacrifices for sins, as jesus was the final sacrifice. Matthew 5: 17 explains this. All we need is a little patience and open mind to understand that there are no contradictions in the bible.


This is not about contradictions in the Bible they are a hundred threads over that this is about God ordering his followers to kill unbelievers and whither they should obey.

And the question of why its any different for the Christian God to do so than the Muslim God?



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by soldier_of_the_lord
Ex priests during the reformation knew which books were put in the bible to mislead people and therefore knew which books to cut out. Also if we look at the apocrypha. it doesnt match up with the bible such as in 2nd book of Esdras in the apocrypha it says when we die we are as spirits who walk the earth until judgement day whereas the bible (old KJV of 1611) says we 'sleep' (we call it death) until judgement day.
This is not a logical answer, it is a statement. I want to know, do you believe in those books, and since you take immediately to defend X priests, then kindly support your defence.

I will give you some food for thought so that you may best prepare your defence. Priests saying their selection of the books is by divine intervention does not make it so, for these very priests could have been that cunning serpent you call Satan supplanting the real scripture, and confounding you with aprocrypha in the name of gospel. In which case you can prove neither divinity nor satan's intervention, the rest is left to intelligent argument, and the death you mention, is but an aside.

Please then, proceed with a logical argument.

[edit on 1/24/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by Chakotay

In all fairness, Amerindian sacrifice was no different. Not all tribes made human sacrifices, but some did. So to answer Amuk's question, 'Is it OK to murder in the name of God', I and my Cherokee people say 'no', and we have backed that up with a way of life that is based upon mutual respect and peace.


I know the Cherokee were pretty peaceful but some tribes like the Aztec would put a Nazi Death Camp to shame during Religious Festivials. I dont know if beliefs playrd a part in it or not, they seemed to kill believer and non-believer with equal Zeal.

Its funny that you mention Cherokee , I know more about the beliefs of the Aztec than the Cherokee and I live next door to yall.

I will have to remedy that, any suggestions on books? U2U me if you wish



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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Somewhereinbetween, yes i do believe in those books, i believe in ALL the word of God, the bible. In regard to x priests....Martin Luther who was the key guy who started the reformation was an x priest who realised the filth & lies that existed in the catholic church. Out of which was born the King James Version of the bible....because the reformers restudied the original hebrew and greek in which the bible were written to get a true understanding of what the scriptures say and not what the Satan worshipping pope wants us to believe.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
You find yourself in a whirlwind of a conundrum, a fleeting nano-second seems an eternity, and you realise that all of your faith and how you spend the rest of eternity rests in your hope that you had an out. At that point in time if you could place yourself there, would you wish you had made a different choice, or would you feel satisfaction, and accept a possible fate in hell?


Interesting point. Let me preface my response by saying that most of the conclusions I draw are not entirely drawn from the bible, but rather different people’s analysis of an issue as it relates to passages from the bible. I have never read the bible cover to cover, so I may be wrong on my specifics. I have no clue what God wants me to do most of the time, and I have many more questions than I have answers.

Going back to visit the situation after I had received God’s judgment of my acts, the choice seems obvious. However, at that point I would have the benefit of having God’s take on the situation, from his mouth, and not translated and embellished over thousands of years of re-writes. The knowledge of God’s judgment would certainly make the decision much easier. I make no claim to have been imparted any divine power to execute God’s will, I would have been wrong to kill the intruder when he entered my house, just as he would have been wrong in killing my family and his wife wrong in killing me. It just seems to me that both the wife and I would have been at least somewhat justified in our actions and possibly even the husband too. I have no idea what his motivation was for breaking into my house. Personally, I hope that God takes into consideration the events surrounding the actions we take as well as our motivations for committing them, before passing judgment on something we do.

I know that’s a vague answer, and as I said, I have more questions that answers. It would be nice to sit down and have a face-to-face with God, but that doesn’t seem to be in the cards for me, anyway. I can’t tell you that I am right in any religious sense; at the same time you can’t tell me I’m wrong. Some questions will never be answered in this life. All I know is that we have been unleashed on the earth with a sense of right and wrong, and the ability to do either one. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:55 PM
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"He turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacale to me. YOU are thinking not as God DOES, but as HUMAN beings do.' "



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

The list goes on and on where YOUR God tell his subjects to slaughter those that dont believe.

But I repeat the question

Is it OK to slaughter men, women and children without mercy as long as it is done for the "right" God? Is it only wrong when the "wrong" God says to do it?

[edit on 24-1-2005 by Amuk]


Well when you lump Christianity in that same token you miss something very big. No place does Christ advocate murder.
The Old Testement was the Law given unto Moses, when the Jews crissed into Canan, they were told to kill every man woman and child, and yet the did not follow through with this and even intermarried with the ungodly.

I think the Bible 'both testements' are specific in that "Thou shalt not murder".


God himself wiped out mankind for the most part because of the rampant sin....

So to answer your question,

Is it OK to slaughter men, women and children without mercy as long as it is done for the "right" God? Is it only wrong when the "wrong" God says to do it?

Without Mercy? When God tells you to do something you should probably do as you are told, but we do not and we bring more sin upon us. It is the weakness of the Flesh.

But I think Christ answered your question best, "Love thine enemy"



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger
But I think Christ answered your question best, "Love thine enemy"


And without a doubt you don't see Baptists strapping bombs on and going into shopping malls.

But the VAST Majority of muslims dont either


My question was more along the lines of how one can use verses in the Koran to claim Islam is a bloodthirsty Religion when you can pretty much match verse to verse from the Bible.



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:07 AM
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Read my big list of scriptures edsinger...they are on one of these pages and support the right to self defence.



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:13 AM
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Ok...I saw this thread and I read a couple of posts and saw the typical, If god tell you to kill you kill" and thought, no, I'm not getting into that bunch of mess...but since someone ask me to to voice my opinion and I have respect for this person, here it is....No, I don't think it's ok to kill in the name of a god and I don't care whose god it is...no one's god will, could, make me take something else's life force...for one, why? A god doesn't need that for any type of proof of anything....a god would already know...as to the Christian god..."to me", you can't have it both ways...Christians teaching teach love, understanding, patience and tolerance, turn the other cheek...where does murder come in there? It also "seems to me" that there are a lot of Christians that seem to spend a good bit of their time with hatred, murder, & killing on the brain....or destruction of nations, people, the world....
"Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs Massacre Each Other in India" "Protestant Gunmen Kill Catholics in Belfast, and Vice Versa" "Shi'ites in Iran Hang Baha'i Teens Who Won't Convert" "Christian Snipers Pin Down Muslim Machine-Gunners in Beirut" "Hands and Feet Chopped Off Under Islamic Law in Sudan". It seems to me that organized religion is extremely violent. Religion always is hailed as the cure for the world's evils. But, too often, it's the problem, not the solution. I heard this on a show my granddaughter was watching this evening....Spy Kids 2..the guy was talking about how he no longer would go down out of his hideaway because he is afraid the monsters he created would kill him...one of the kids say...but your their creator, they may love you.....and then the guy says.....
"Maybe that's why God stays up in heaven now....Do you think God stays up in Heaven because He fears His creation?" Mankind id violent and I don't think it is any gods teaching...just the way man wants to interpret things to justify his own lust for killing in order to get his own way.


[edit on 1/25/2005 by LadyV]



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk

But the VAST Majority of Muslims don't either

My question was more along the lines of how one can use verses in the Koran to claim Islam is a bloodthirsty Religion when you can pretty much match verse to verse from the Bible.


I know that Christians don't kill in the same way that 'some' Muslims do. Yes the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and even throughout the history they have been somewhat, Christianity has had its share of blood on its hands, but this is the 21st century, times are different and most Muslims are quiet about what is being done in their name.


As for the right to self defense, I couldn't agree more and Christan nations have fought to kill evil, the time will come when a choice must be made and Islam will be the ones making that choice.

As a personal note, Islam or the Koran is very different from the Bible, especially the New Testament in these regards. Odd how the Koran came 600 years afterward and yet imho it was a step backward..........



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the WEIGHTIER things of the law: judgment and MERCY and FIDELITY. [But] these you should have done, without neglecting the OTHERS. Blind guides, who strain out the GNAT and swallow the CAMEL!"



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by fourth horseman
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the WEIGHTIER things of the law: judgment and MERCY and FIDELITY. [But] these you should have done, without neglecting the OTHERS. Blind guides, who strain out the GNAT and swallow the CAMEL!"

Speak for yourself and stop just quoting! And why are you yelling some words!?

[edit on 1/25/2005 by LadyV]



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 12:31 AM
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No it is no longer acceptable to kill in the name of God unless it is a demon or it is to save many more lives. It all depends on the circumstance, but a war for God is no longer acceptable. If God wanted certain people dead for not believing he could do it himself. He doesn't need us to do anything!



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by soldier_of_the_lord
Somewhereinbetween, yes i do believe in those books,
First things first then. These books that I mention and you endorse had nothing to do with your lithurgical council approving same unless that council was Roman Catholic. Hence, whatever Christian doctrine you follow has been brought to you via the very same church you blaspheme.


i believe in ALL the word of God, the bible.
Then you believe that your God contradicts himself, and if you think he does not, feel free to click on my posts and educate yourself. I truly hate repeating myself, but in the essence of imparting knowledge I am grateful for the link button, but where I must provide full repetition this will place you at an extreme disadvantage, for I am not as patient as I would like to be.


In regard to x priests....Martin Luther who was the key guy who started the reformation was an x priest who realised the filth & lies that existed in the catholic church. Out of which was born the King James Version of the bible....because the reformers restudied the original hebrew and greek in which the bible were written to get a true understanding of what the scriptures say and not what the Satan worshipping pope wants us to believe.
You are but several centuries shy of real history, please start with Clement circa 125-150ACE. For your sanity's sake, immediately jump to Irenaeus, then to the numerous Nicean councils to bring some plausibility into your argument. A small clue, there is not a church father whose choice of scripture outside of that accepted by Rome and the RCC, has representation in your Bible.

When you are through with those, research how all of the books of whatever Bible you use came into being, try at least to concentrate on those that still use the words; thee: thou and thine. You can save yourself the trouble by taking my word for it that the NT books all arose from the Codex Vaticanus; Codex Sinaiticus; and the preponderance of writings attached to various Alexandrian and African canons. All of which underwent a tumultous period of history where stupid, ignorant and illiterate men literally kissed the behinds of kings to achieve power.

After all your research is said and done, I will still show you what you do not know, and what will make you as others...run.



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by paraGoing back to visit the situation after I had received God’s judgment of my acts, the choice seems obvious. However, at that point I would have the benefit of having God’s take on the situation, from his mouth, and not translated and embellished over thousands of years of re-writes.
Which is why I offered you only the sixth commandment and the words of Jesus.


I make no claim to have been imparted any divine power to execute God’s will, I would have been wrong to kill the intruder when he entered my house, just as he would have been wrong in killing my family and his wife wrong in killing me.
Then you retract your earlier statement that God will find forgiveness. If you can acknowledge that you are wrong, you do so knowing in your heart that God does not want you to kill for any reason. But more than that, you do so knowing that within your very soul lies a non-describable force that tells you it is wrong. Is that no so?


Personally, I hope that God takes into consideration the events surrounding the actions we take as well as our motivations for committing them, before passing judgment on something we do.

I know that’s a vague answer, and as I said, I have more questions that answers.
Therein lies the big issue between believing and hoping, faith and understanding. Your answer is not vague by any means Para, it is representative of everything that you thought to address thus far. The hope that you are correct, translated as faith, leads you to believe you would be forgiven. The missing parameter is the realization of: what if I haven’t thought this through properly? But as you admit, you still seek answers, and in my humble opinion, it is when we stop seeking answers that we face a most disagreeable judgement.

Thank you for allowing me this exchange with you.

Regards.



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 02:20 AM
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I think I'm too DUMB to understand most of the bible,but I follow Matthew chapter 6 and Psalms 23.I think when I die I'll talk a true lesson from GOD.But if I was attacked,I cherish the LIFE that I was given(by my father and mother,and the Lord),and would defend myself to the best of my ability.Even then,I would probably only go as far as breaking the limbs of the offending attacker.At least then He can live as well,and maybe change while I help him and care for him as he heals.



posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 02:43 AM
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Why would any reasonable God tell you to murder? How can a God have created us and then sent down a message that you are to murder such and such a person?
Sure, when it comes to cases of judgement (eg. murder, rape etc.), God may say that the appropriate punishment is death. Does this mean that murder is being done in God's name? If some country or form of government sets death as punishment for something, would they be any different?
Also, if God says that you may fight (and if necessary kill) to defend yourself, your family, your beliefs or your faith, is that wrong?
The problem arises when people stretch these "guidlines". Are homosexuals, abortion clinics, etc. harming Christians in anyway? Some Christians think so, resulting in acts of terrorism. Are innocent Muslims harming Christians in anyway? Some some Christians think so, so we have hateful acts of terrorism. Are innocent Christians harming muslims in anyway? Some muslims think so, so we have hateful acts of terrorism.



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