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Is it OK to murder in the name of God?

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posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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Let me step in and say lets keep this civil. I am looking forward to hearing from a wide range of people on this and dont want it to become a name calling contest.

Thanks




posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Let me step in and say lets keep this civil. I am looking forward to hearing from a wide range of people on this and dont want it to become a name calling contest.

Thanks


I hope that wasn't pointed at me, I was speaking in general.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by deesw
You are apparently taking everything out of context,,,, the old testament, while still read and studied is superceaded by the New Testament where after Christ died for our sins then those punishments are no longer needed.


The point is not really if they are right NOW but the fact that your God condones murdering women and children too. Isn't God timeless? Has the statute of limitations ran out?



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by thematrix
I hope that wasn't pointed at me, I was speaking in general.


So was I. I just dont want to see this turn into a Christians/Muslims are ICKY thread.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Whether the name "Jehovah" or "Allah" is associated to God. I believe Christians, Jews and Muslims believe that the God of Abraham is who they whorship. So in essence it is the same God that told those in the "Old Testament" to kill and wipe people from the face of the earth, as the God that told Muslims to kill and wipe people from the face of the earth. The insane thing is that none of these groups will admit that they all want the same thing in the end and they use their slight differences to wage war among themselves.

Phae



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:15 PM
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Actually while the god of the first testament was a god of anger and death, and many wars and killings were done in his name.

In modern christianity it was still killings done in the name of god.

The truth is not god to be held accountable but men that created the reason for killing in his name.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:16 PM
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I always thought that the 'law' of the OT was superceded by Christ's commandments in the NT. Christ never ordered anyone to kill, so surely Christians shouldn't do it.

I don't know about Muslims because I've never really read the Koran.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
The point is not really if they are right NOW

But you were making it sound as if that was still acceptable now, when it's not.


but the fact that your God condones murdering women and children

Says who?
Again, what happened in the OT happened for a reason, and for that time period. It is NOT condoned today, please show me otherwise if it is.


Isn't God timeless? Has the statute of limitations ran out?

How to put this.....hmm...

When you're a baby, you eat baby food. But after a certain age you don't eat it anymore. Why? Because it's not necessary any more, you can eat real food now. In the Bible, Jesus is that real food which means the baby food (the restrictions of the law) isn't necessary any more.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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Well I dont really trust any english bible. I think there were lots of translation errors. Then only way to truely read it is to learn Hebrew. Which I dont have enough time since Im already learning spanish



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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You don't ask easy questions, Amuk, you nasty old biker, you!

I call myself a "Christian" because I follow a radical Jewish carpenter who was executed by the government. I don't buy into a lot of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, because it pushes agendas and gives examples I cannot handle. (It also has wonderful news, too, especially the poetry of David and Solomon and the lessons of Job.)

Sometimes this Jesus business gets me in political trouble.

For example, as an NRA member, military veteran, an Old White Guy, ex-Scoutmaster, etc., you'd probably think I was a conservative exemplar (which I'm not, of course; I'm a libertarian). I also am very concerned about illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America and believe that any method we use to solve the problem is going to have to include keeping illegal imigrants from coming in across the border where I live.

There's an organization in Tucson called "Humane Borders" which consists of people who actually go out into the desert in the summer and fill up water tanks for the illegal immigrants. This outfit which is almost completely staffed by activist "Christians" and screaming leftists, most of whom spout the same nauseating liberal crapola about everyone being "owed": eveything by the government, and finding fault with everything that makes my country great, and all actually believe that the Democrats had the election stolen from them blah blah blah.

Sometimes the "patriots" in that part of the desert make large noises about going out and shooting the Humane Borders weenies, but it hasn't happened yet. The national parks guys, like in Organ Pipe Cactus National Park; as well as the INS, know about the Humane Borders guys and don't do anything, because the HB folks say the won't help an illegal immigrant get in, they just want to provide water.

Now I can barely stomach these whining people at all, and yet, on a trip last summer, when about 20 of these went out into the desert to pick up illegal immigrants' trash and fill water barrels for them to drink as they came across our borders, only nineteen of them were mush-brained and potty-mouth liberals.

The twentieth one was me.

So what is a non-liberal, anti-illegal immigration, military veteran, old white guy, NRA member, pickup driver doing out there, with a bunch of people whose political views were exactly the opposite of mine?

Because I have lived in the desert for twenty-six years and I know that people die out there in the desert, with cactus thorns and feet torn to shreds, dehydrated and hallucinating.

These are the people that the coyotes took across the desert, leaving them at places like Quitobaquito Springs or Kots Kug and telling them that Tucson is right over the next hill, but forgetting to tell them that it's a hundred miles over the next hill, and that the temperatures are going to reach 110 and there is no water and they will all die horrible deaths.

Little kids and women as well as young and old men.

Well, these don't look like illegal aliens to me when all they can do is croak and bleed. They don't look like people coming to take away our jobs, although some of them might. They don't look like people taking some of my welfare money although some of them might. They don't look like anything when I see them there -- and I have seen them there -- except what they really are:

Brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

You know, Jesus: the Jew radical who got executed. He knew all about thorns and hallucinating with pain and horrible thirst, and He didn't say, "Street, if you're not doing anything this weekend, you might want to ..."; what He did was command me to go out there in the desert and hang out with a bunch of jive-@$$ Liberals because I have to minister to the sick because that's in the job description I got when He took me on.

He trumps politics and He also trumps all that Old Testament bloodthirsty stuff, Amuk, and I will kill in self defense, and I might kill in a just war and I will definitely kill to protect my family, but I'm not going to murder anyone, because I am not that kind of "Christian", thank you very much.

Well, okay, maybe a liberal or two; but other than that, no murder for me.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
I just dont want to see this turn into a Christians/Muslims are ICKY thread.


ROFLMAO. But they are, and you know it or you wouldn't have said it. The difference is, Xtians are hypocrites ("love and light or die, heathens") and Muslims are just straight up, straightforward killers.

Ravenna, you really should read the Koran, just once- so should every one. Then look in a mirror, realize you are not Muslim and never will be, and prepare for the day when one of them obeys the Koran and tries to eviscerate you. It's like watching the movie 'Alien'- really.

In all fairness, Amerindian sacrifice was no different. Not all tribes made human sacrifices, but some did. So to answer Amuk's question, 'Is it OK to murder in the name of God', I and my Cherokee people say 'no', and we have backed that up with a way of life that is based upon mutual respect and peace. You see, we liked what we heard when people quoted Jesus to us: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. We'd always done that. So we continued to live that way, even though the hypocrites continued to shoot us and our children. Maybe the Muslims are having a hard time with 'love your neighbor' because of the way the hypocrites treat us Indians. I don't know.

What I do know, is that when Xtians or Muslims show up, we die.

But, given their straightforward murderousness, we Indians would appreciate it if you Xtians would keep the Muslims far, far away from all of us. 'Kay?



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:54 PM
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Where in the world do you see that Christians are told to kill infidels or kill those who aren't Christian. Have I missed something my whole life???

Here are the Ten commandments. These are our rules for life. Plus the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have done to you

"And behold, one came up to Him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why do you ask Me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the Commandments." He said to Him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 19:16-19 RSV)

The Ten Commandments
Commandments One to Four:
How To Properly Worship The Only True God

First
"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me."

Second
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I The Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and keep My Commandments."

Third
"You shall not take The Name of The Lord your God in vain; for The Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His Name in vain."

Fourth
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to The Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days The Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore The Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

Commandments Five to Ten:
How To Live In Peace With Humanity:

Fifth
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which The Lord your God gives you."

Sixth
"You shall not kill."

Seventh
"You shall not commit adultery."

Eighth
"You shall not steal."

Ninth
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Tenth
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's."

(Exodus 20:2-17 RSV)

Can you imagine if everyone follwed the golden rule and commandments 5-10????? There would be world peace!!!!

No, God does NOT command us to murder, quite the contrary



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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I think we have to look at this. Did God write down 'Kill infidels" or did man? God deliverd the 10 Commandments where it says "Thou Shalt not Kill". I feel that parts of the Old Testament were written by man meaning that they put their own words in there.

I believe that those who think it is right to or would murder in the name of God are walking the path of Satan. Jesus (while a bit angry and having a habit for knocking over tables) was a man of peace. I tend to believe the New Testament over the Old, and that God does not want us to murder just that Satan and men of radical religous ignorant zeal wish to.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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It is interesting that all religions carry hate and love, death and life, they contradict eachother, yet sometimes are very alike and all are source of good and evil, at the same time.
It all points on human origin of them... or maybe just limited human perception of divinity. I mean, can we understand, truly understand, what God is saying, or is religion and Holy Books merely a very simplified version of God's word, a version that our mind can create and comprehend?

I think that an important question here is: did God really order the killings or were those stories simply made up, for whatever reasons?
An all-powerful, all-mighty creator, by all logic, gains absolutely nothing by ordering killings, but a king trying to stay in power gains a lot when he orders it and says it is actually God who told him so. Then he creates a dogma out of this story and makes it a part of religion.

On one side, prophets spread the love, the good word of God, which is then immediately after that corrupted by evil, temptation of Satan.
The origin of religions is one God, a good God, but organized religion, every single one we have today, is God's word corrupted by imperfection of man.

Another thing important for explanation of "killings in the name of our God" is a difference between human and divine justice.
A religious fanatic will read a story of Sodom and Gomorah, in which God punished the sinners, and then think to himself "oh, look at people around me living in sin, I should go kill them like God would do". A human being is enforcing divine justice thinking it is somehow his task as a believer.
A lot of killings in the name of religion are done for exactly this reason.
Normal way of thinking in this case would be "hmmm the situation is similar to one described in the Bible. I shall realise that and walk away. If God sees fit, he will punish them. If not, I will not chalenge God's will by doing it myself. No. I will let them live. There must be a reason why God allows it."

It is difficult to pick out parts of religions which are truly God's words, but one can use logic and common sense to try to figure it out.
An all-loving God, creator of universe, creator of life, creator of human souls, creator of other life in universe, would probably order creation rather then destruction. Once that is realised, it becomes easy to find the true words of God.

Christianity used to kill a LOT in the name of Jesus.
Today, certain christians kill in the name of "freedom", "democracy", and say that Jesus very much approves of all that and won't punish them because they say so. It is just a different way to sell killings in the name of God. Modern messiahs spread their own ideologies justifying them with old ones.

The greatest enemy of organised religion is individuality, people who think for themselves and do not follow dogmas created by men. It is then that the true religion is practiced, individual personal belief, in which action and consequence are only yours to bear.

Before I get even more incoherent, I shall end this post


In short, killings in the name of God are wrong. Killing and saying that God approves it because you say so, is wrong.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by Amuk
Dr. Horacid

Is it OK to kill men women and Childern of unbelievers if it is done for the "right" God?




Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7


The list goes on and on where YOUR God tell his subjects to slaughter those that dont believe.

I have asked you this question on a couple other threads, I am sure you just overlooked it.

But I repeat the question

Is it OK to slaughter men, women and children without mercy as long as it is done for the "right" God? Is it only wrong when the "wrong" God says to do it?


As difficult as it is to understand, YES, we should do as "GOD" says. He is the "GOD" of Abraham. All other gods flow from Satan the great deceiver. Satan is confusion.

Is this direct enough?




Thats retarded. the "god" as you religeous people know it, and the "satan" as you people know it, do not exist, or is satan just confusing me



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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What I read here mostly are convoluted and contradictory views to intended only to apologize for the Creator God, as if he needs mere mortals to apologize on his behalf.


Horacid- He is the "GOD" of Abraham. All other gods flow from Satan the great deceiver.
That is what we are told, which makes him the God of Muhammed.



Jupiter- If you follow CHRIST'S actual teachings (not to be confused with the Church's as they are plainly different), then NO it is not OK to murder.
ANYONE who tells you differently, DOES NOT UNDERSTAND CHRIST'S TEACHINGS.
Obviously you believe Jesus overrules the creator. Well that would be fine except we have this:

– syntaxer But I do believe the 2nd Testament was the coming of Jesus and it's "unspoken" goal of correcting the misunderstandings of the 1st Testament.
Which suggests that all of the orders given by God to kill, murder, maim, rape and mutilate were in fact not misunderstandings. Which in itself makes no sense since Christians firmly believe that the OT from the beginning tells them of Jesus’ coming to preach peace.

syntaxer- God saw things were pretty messed up so he decided to send his son, Jesus, to Earth
Yet we find God speaking of the death and destruction he will have Israel inflict on their enemies right up to Malachai. So what is it then, that God erred, and lied so that his son had to come and fix his mistakes? This is an omnipotent and all knowing God, remember?

But it seems it is still all right to kill at will, after all Jesus came and took all sins away. He cleansed them all away, therefore they are no more sins committed.

deesw- You are apparently taking everything out of context,,,, the old testament, while still read and studied is superceaded by the New Testament where after Christ died for our sins then those punishments are no longer needed. He came to cleanse us of our sins and give us a chance at eternity with him.
This is the blessing then for all those who believe in Jesus to continue killing each other, because the sins have been cleansed, and specifically they would be Christians and Muslems.


Thatsjustweird- Again, what happened in the OT happened for a reason, and for that time period. It is NOT condoned today, please show me otherwise if it is.

Off_ The_Street -He trumps politics and He also trumps all that Old Testament bloodthirsty stuff, Amuk
And what reason would that be? What exactly has changed with the enemies of Israel of 5,000 years ago, and the enemies of Israel today that validates this statement? What exactly was that reason why "it" happened? What was the lesson learned that is different to the obliteration of all of mankind as foretold? And what exactly has he trumped given the above?

Of all the religions, Christianity is the most divided in doctrine. It is a pick and choose what you like and don’t like faith, as evidenced by:

llpoolej- Here are the Ten commandments. These are our rules for life. Plus the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have done to you
Is it all 10, or is it just the first two as some Christians were claiming in another thread?

llpoolej- No, God does NOT command us to murder, quite the contrary
These 10 were given in Ex. Chapter 20, where the sixth was reinforced 21 verses later, where 2 verses after that God decrees the death penalty. Now lest anyone be confused about who carries out the death sentence, the answer is found in Numbers 35:19. God’s command thereafter was that he go and possess the lands he promised Moses. That I am afraid does not involve going and asking for it, or waltzing in and saying it is mine, get out!. It seems that the God of the slain has every right then to revenge also.

I am reminded of a post by another, perhaps it was Marg who
rightfully pointed out that Jesus in his zeal to tell man to turn the other cheek, had no problem walking into a synagogue and inflicting violence on others. Justice served thereafter as commanded!

But what difference does it make whether you believe in Judaism, Islam or Christianity anyway? The creator God that sits at the top is the pyramid is still Atum, his name has just been changed throughout the ages, to hide that sad fact.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:23 PM
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Hey, I'm firmly on the side that hurting people is wrong. Killing them is worse. If that means that i'll be judged lacking by some god in the future, so be it. if god decideds i should burn forever than I shall do so gladly for it was gods will.

I do not support the death penalty and i'm appalled that a nation that declares itself to be a christian nation does. Do those people really think Jesus supported the death penalty, hanging there on that cross? If the state would kill the son of god than what chance would a moron like me have against them? Any christian that supports the death penalty is no differant than those that stood outside the prison and screamed "Give us Barabas!"

Killing people is wrong. Be it for god or punishment. Killing is wrong.

Love and light,

Wupy



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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I was going to write a long essay about this, but then i read Streets post and it more or less sums me up.
So i voted Street Way Above instead.



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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Is it Ok to kill in the name of your god???? UMMM DUHHH!!!!

Of course it is! Just look at the crusades! That was Ok. Hasn't anyone been reading their KJV 1611??? Kill away!



posted on Jan, 24 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by llpoolej
Where in the world do you see that Christians are told to kill infidels or kill those who aren't Christian. Have I missed something my whole life???

Here are the Ten commandments. These are our rules for life. Plus the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have done to you
No, God does NOT command us to murder, quite the contrary


Those ten Commandments are right next to God Ordering the faithful to slaughter the unbelievers. Why are they valid and the commands to kill the unbelievers not?




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